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Hsiang

So I decide to repeat the run that caused my faceplant 2 weeks ago..

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This is pretty much the same thing I saw of the other Z10 crashes.  The Z10 with the wide wheels and the weird ride profile seems to resist input and fight the rider.  When it gets unsettled, it does the wobble of death which is hard to recover from  just like in motorcycle high side crash where the front wheel does the wobble of death and you get thrown.  The is the reason I don't like the Z10 and prefer the wheel that you don't have to fight with and feels one with the rider, the KS18L.  I feel a little of the fight in the MSX.  Every time I jump on the MSX, I ask why am I riding this POS.  It feels that bad compared to the 18L.  

The thing that caused you to fall in this video would not happen on the 18L, but might on the MSX.  

Edited by eddiemoy
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So no result why the original crash happened? Still possible it was a hardware/firmware pedal dip? :efeeab781c:

25 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Actually I'd say it could probably happen on any wheel, even your 18L. It might not happen as easily, but then again if you've looked at @Marty Backe's videos, he complained about the tracking in the Z10. Then he found out that if you up the pressure the problem goes away to a large extent. That is, it tracks and controls a lot better. Low pressure might be comfortable, but it does nothing for your control...

Well, a round tire (circular cross-section) turns better, so less air and a squished, square-ish tire will be more easily pushed off track or have an edge/corner it can't balance on.

I still think the Z10 tire is too wide. You can literally hit a rock or something on one side of the tire but not the other, pushing the wheel off direction massively. In addition to not being round enough so it will track the ground instead of where you want to go.

Maybe 2.5 inches is the perfect tire width?

@eddiemoy @Marty Backe Is there a smoothness of turning/stability difference between the 2.5 inch msuper V3 and 3 inch msuper X?

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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24 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Actually I'd say it could probably happen on any wheel, even your 18L. It might not happen as easily, but then again if you've looked at @Marty Backe's videos, he complained about the tracking in the Z10. Then he found out that if you up the pressure the problem goes away to a large extent. That is, it tracks and controls a lot better. Low pressure might be comfortable, but it does nothing for your control...

I'd say that cut in the road looked deceivingly small, almost trivial. I looked a second time, and realized it was both wider and deeper than I thought the first time around. Such things are scary, since they look harmless until you actually hit them. When you do, you're unprepared for the jolt, and so the EUC starts to pull sideways and then wobble. One of my own falls have a slight similarity. I hit a curb diagonally that was hidden under an inch or so of water, so I had no prior warning. I tried to go right, the wheel suddenly wanted to go straight, and we parted ways. That was my GT16, that is a rather light and nimble EUC, almost like a polar opposite of the Z10. Had I known about the curb, I would have turned a bit tighter and braced myself for the jolt - which probably would have been enough.

No shade on the 18L, it seems to be a brilliant piece of equipment... truly. I'm just saying that the other are not necessarily bad because of it. Know your wheel, keep aware of the surroundings and the road, don't be caught unprepared.

Of course it can happen to any wheel.  I'm not saying the 18L is immune to crashes.  My point is if you are fighting with the wheel during normal riding, you are more likely to fight the wheel when it gets unsettled on top of the already dangerous situation.  I've gone into a huge ditch that i know would I would have crashed due to the unusual contour of it if I had been on the Z10.  But the 18L just is so effortless that it was definitely what saved me when I wend into that ditch.  That it I was able to get it back under control and not fighting the already weird behavior is definitely a plus.  

Doesn't matter how much you know your wheel, if you hit something that makes the highspeed wobbles come on, you are going down.  Just like it is almost impossible to recover from highside crash on a motorcycle.  High side crash is when the front wheel goes into high speed wobbles.  Search for it on Youtube.  It is really scary.

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1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So no result why the original crash happened? Still possible it was a hardware/firmware pedal dip? :efeeab781c:

Well, a round tire (circular cross-section) turns better, so less air and a squished, square-ish tire will be more easily pushed off track or have an edge/corner it can't balance on.

I still think the Z10 tire is too wide. You can literally hit a rock or something on one side of the tire but not the other, pushing the wheel off direction massively. In addition to not being round enough so it won't track the ground.

Maybe 2.5 inches is the perfect tire width?

@eddiemoy @Marty Backe Is there a smoothness of turning/stability difference between the 2.5 inch msuper V3 and 3 inch msuper X?

If you look at the Z10 tire, it looks slightly pyramidical, actually being far from the max 4.1 inches hitting the road when well inflated. But yeah I get your point. I started out on a Inmotion V3 twin wheel and that truly has that kind of problem. Hit an obstacle with one wheel, and you're off unless you're prepared/used to the shit. I got rather proficient running on cobble stones before I got my GT16, but that is far from saying it was a nice experience.

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4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So no result why the original crash happened? Still possible it was a hardware/firmware pedal dip? :efeeab781c:

Well, a round tire (circular cross-section) turns better, so less air and a squished, square-ish tire will be more easily pushed off track or have an edge/corner it can't balance on.

I still think the Z10 tire is too wide. You can literally hit a rock or something on one side of the tire but not the other, pushing the wheel off direction massively. In addition to not being round enough so it will track the ground instead of where you want to go.

Maybe 2.5 inches is the perfect tire width?

@eddiemoy @Marty Backe Is there a smoothness of turning/stability difference between the 2.5 inch msuper V3 and 3 inch msuper X?

The MSX with the 3" tire has some of the characteristics of the Z10 that it resist turning a little.  I'm not sure if it is the tire or just the bad design of the MSX.  But i don't remember the V3s+ being so resistant.  Could be wrong.

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2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@eddiemoy Sorry, but wobbles are still the rider / technique, Z or no Z.

Now, if you don’t want to learn that technique, that’s a whole different matter and completely fine. 

I’ve pretty much completely solidified my technique on the Z now, and hit plenty of bumps, both seen and unseen, most much bigger than the on in @Hsiang‘s video, and had no issues, no falls,... and I’m not fighting anything. (Actually, the sensation of hitting bumps/divots on the Z is much better than most wheels IMHO)

I know both of you guys like to squeeze the wheel, which I don’t subscribe to, but hey, to each their own,.... but the Z is very unforgiving to that riding style, I would get dumped on an unforeseen bump squeezing the Z as well.

For the Z and MSX, my feet are as wide as possible, almost hanging off the sides of the pedals, and for the Z, my heels angle even more outwards, like I’m pigeon-toed.

If I only stuck to traditional wheels that never challenged my existing EUC knowledge, technique, I would have never progressed... but hey, maybe that’s what people want.

I'm not talking about wobble with regular riding, I'm talking about wobbles you get when you are not expecting something and hit uneven surfaces.  If you are prepared for something you really don't get unsettled.

I see @Hsiang ride with dominant right leg and his left is twisted to one side, the same when he rides his i5.  

I don't squeeze the wheel unless I'm going up a hill.  Mostly it is loose between my legs.  

MSX is different, the wheel is too side and I like my feet next to the body but since the MSX is so tall my leg contacts with the top corner of the wheel.  Doesn't feel good.  Maybe I need to spread my legs a bit on the MSX.  

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14 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

I’ve pretty much completely solidified my technique on the Z now, and hit plenty of bumps, both seen and unseen, most much bigger than the on in @Hsiang‘s video, and had no issues, no falls,... and I’m not fighting anything. (Actually, the sensation of hitting bumps/divots on the Z is much better than most wheels IMHO)

@eddiemoy

That’s what I wrote, unseen bumps is no different.

I’ve also caught many a wobble on unseen bumps (before having the Z), worst was on the Monster, but wide feet and sticking my outer leg saved them, outside of the ones in the dark, those are harder with the decreased visibility.

On the MSX, I actually think it’s too short, body doesn’t support the shin enough, almost like being naked.

Edited by houseofjob

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15 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I don't squeeze the wheel unless I'm going up a hill.  Mostly it is loose between my legs.  

Ah, I mis-wrote this, what I should have wrote is narrow feet.

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I will try to see if I still have the video of a near 30kmh+ faceplant when I rode to Ikea this summer. 

I think I erased it, but if that is the case, I will see if we have non-freezing weather and a period this weekend when it is not raining I might go back to reshoot the area, just not at the high speed 😁 I doubt my hearth could handle that much adrenaline again. Keep in mind it was just a few months after my first major fall. (I will share a photo of my injure not shown here before, needs a little editing due to nudity, ohh yes feel free to laugh massively, it looks funny)

And my body learned from that oddly enough. I thank that crash from me reacting to ride out my very very near crash. ...So for that cliffhanger..I will get back to you.

@Scatcat I might need you skills to explain what happen, wheel mechanic wise. And I can say right now both @Rehab1 and @Hunka Hunka Burning Love Will like that post. To raise expectations, funny and educational and attempted to be an artist ...to be continued..work in progress...🤪😯🤕

 

Edited by Unventor
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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think my main takeaway from today's discussion is that @eddiemoy hates the MSX and isn't shy about sh*!&ing on it. But I think we've all come to expect that from Eddie :D

The real mystery is why Eddie can't be a lover of all wheels. Is there really a bad wheel that's been released in the last few years?

I choose to love and not hate :ph34r: 

Well @Marty Backe great choice, I only wish more would do so. 

On the other hand I do value people have an opinion of their own choice too. I might not agree to these, never the less I cannot say it entitles me to disregard these. But at some point the best you can hope for is the acknowledgement that you agree to disagree with one another 😉

I love my KS18L to bits, as for the MSX I can't say, but hopefully I get to see one live soon if weather and @Scatcat allow it😀😎 I really hope so. 

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21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think my main takeaway from today's discussion is that @eddiemoy hates the MSX and isn't shy about sh*!&ing on it. But I think we've all come to expect that from Eddie :D

The real mystery is why Eddie can't be a lover of all wheels. Is there really a bad wheel that's been released in the last few years?

I choose to love and not hate :ph34r: 

I'm trying hard to like the MSX, but so far no dice.  I think the problem is I'm just spoiled by the other wheels.  I jump on the MSX after and I just absolutely hate it.  

If you never tried another wheel and MSX is the only wheel you get to ride, I'm sure that person would be really happy.  But if you get to ride both, I don't see why anyone would choose to the MSX except if they want to go faster than 31mph and to have the option of riding seated.  

I don't think they are simply different. 

They say comparison is the theft of joy...  

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I very much value and appreciate eddie’s opinion. I do not notice the finer qualities of the wheels. I am like an oaf driving nails with a violin. :eff02518bb:  He is like the princesses and the pea.:D

I keep his list of approved wheels for people that are less barbaric than myself.

@eddiemoy I really do appreciate your reviews. :thumbup:

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After watching your video, I can assure you that I regularly ride over pavement like that (or worse) without issue; in fact, there's a stretch of pavement so broken-up by tree roots that I never dared ride over it with my V8, but the Z eats it for breakfast.  Riding the Z is so ingrained now I can't reliably recall how I arrived where I'm at but, like @houseofjob, I don't squeeze the wheel, it is actually pretty loose between my legs when I'm riding.  This goes for both when I'm going at high speed or slow.  It might be something worth exploring.

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5 hours ago, Hsiang said:

I guess I shouldn't ruin it by saying if I made it without falling or not, but this also give a little bit more context on that first fall.

 

Btw I like your video and looking forward to stage 2 where you conquer that evil parallel EUC trap. 

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36 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@Marty Backe LOL, I think @eddiemoy‘s views are very good, very valid, just not a fan of the blanket statement wording sometimes, particularly when my experiences differ, as we are all riders of all different dimensions (weight, feet), environments (city vs hills), circumstances (cold, tropical), background (other sports or moto knowledge, engineers), and can stand to learn from each other, especially when we haven’t considered a different angle / point of view to the issue that another rider might have possibly better insight on.

 

@Girth Brooks

Nice to hear!

I’ve heard a lot of the parallels to motorcycle technique, but unfortunately I have yet to enter that world (been heavily eyeing the Onyx RCR emoped!), so would be interesting to hear how that technique goes, the comparisons~

@Marty Backe and @houseofjob Do people not know that I’m just relaying my experience and that theirs maybe different?  Experiences are different and are neither right or wrong. 

One thing I’m sure of is that if someone buys the MSX and it is their only wheel, they will be perfectly happy.   Until they buy another wheel then the comparison starts.  LOL

People have different preferences also, just so happens I’ve been able to try both and I really hate the MSX or rather haven’t been able to like it.  

Althought i have to mention that a few who do have both seem to have the same conclusion as me that the 18XL is a lot easier to ride well.  But they do not dislike the MSX like I do.  But prefer the 18XL for certain things.  

Kind of hijacked @Hsiang‘s thread... LOL

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1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Btw I like your video and looking forward to stage 2 where you conquer that evil parallel EUC trap. 

And thus begins a chain of wacky crashes and trying to find their cause until every tiny bump in New York City has been catalogued, a million episodes later;)

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4 hours ago, Unventor said:

 (I will share a photo of my injure not shown here before, needs a little editing due to nudity, ohh yes feel free to laugh massively, it looks funny)

Promise we won’t laugh at your semi nude photos.;) Just watch out for @Hunka Hunka Burning Love ‘s subtle revisions.

32324733718_d8e1e58c55_z.jpg

 

Edited by Rehab1
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