travsformation Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 P.S. The city council of Madrid is considering doing breathalyzer tests on EUC-riders; if you're above the legal limit, they'll be able to subtract points from your driving license... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: I think it’s good that this crash was documented to all as it tells two things: 1) even with no gear on the guy survived at 50km/h with only one(?) broken bone 2) he never hit his head even at that speed in a textbook fall scenario This will forever be a video of reference to put to rest the people that say you’ll die at those speeds. I can't recall anyone saying you WILL die at those speeds. What I and others have said is that the risk of a life altering accident is a lot higher, and that you CAN die if you're unlucky. There's a clear difference between those statements. But put stuff in perspective. People slide off MCs at 50-60mph and walk away without a scratch. Others fall at half that speed and end up in hospital with broken bones or worse. Does that mean going 30 or 60 is equivalent in risk? Nope, no way! The formula you're (not?) looking for, is: KE= ½ m * v^2 Suppose a rider weight of 200lbs/90.8kg, and let's do the calculation of KE at a few different speeds: 10mph/16kph ~= 906J 20mph/32kph ~= 3625J 30mph/48kph ~= 8158J 40mph/64kph ~= 14504J Double the speed and you quadruple the kinetic energy. For reference the kinetic energy of a ten pound sledgehammer would be in the range of 400-600J, but of course the area affected is much smaller when it hits. But just as the ~500J of KE is what has to be stopped when a sledge hammer hits, the energy to stop with a 200lb rider and a speed of 30mph is roughly the force of 16 sledgehammers. Land on your unprotected arm, and be happy if you just break a bone. Do an unclean roll, and end up in a wheel-chair unless you're lucky. Land on your head and you'll probably not be happy at all, or anything else ever again for that matter. Walk away without a scratch, and I would tell you to buy a lottery ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @Scatcat not matter how hard you try you cannot educate people that isn't interested. Now I am 100% with you that riding an EUC involves risk taking. Do a calculated and smart risk easement well that means you listen and learn from experience. Apparently @Darrell Wesh chose to look at what didn't happen compared how close a call the viral video actual is. I just hope one man's choice do not effect all but that said it is obvious that others seems cable to make same choice. It is however beyond me why people keep insisting riding high speed and then some and not consider consequences. I am anything impressed by that guy ringing both Z10 and now KS18XL in a review video. And having his helmet dangling on his hip. I just hope we don't see a band on EUC for us using as a mean of transport rather an adrelin toy. The more I think of this the more I hope they make a drivers license for EUC, educating on theory and practice skills. So individual people that misbehave can loose the right rather a hole community doing so. Some might claim drivers license is unnecessary but if you had a kid that got run down by these people I write off he, who do you then put you blame as a parent and what impact will this have then on the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @Unventor I agree with everything you said, except for the EUC-riding license part. It does make sense in terms of individual behaviour not affecting the entire community, but the license initiative feels like pushing it way too far. I'm of the opinion, as @meepmeepmayer, that the generalizations stem from the novelty, and people will get used to us and learn to distinguish between courteous riders and assholes. The closest thing to safe riding education we have at the moment is this forum, and there's more than enough info for anyone (who has the interest) to learn pretty much anything they need to know. As always, it's up to personal choices; the information is out there, and whether it's in the form of forum posts or a riding course, morons will remain morons and can choose to ignore "reasonable riding etiquette" info regardless of where it comes from. Although I agree that certain regulations are socially beneficial (there are people who, lacking common sense, need laws to be in place to tell them that they can't drive at 60mph in residential areas, for instance), I'm not a fan of over-regulation. How far do/should we push for regulations? Should we require a license for riding a bicycle? Pushing around a shopping cart? Both can be dangerous, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and certain things need to be left to people's proper judgement, or we risk sacrificing way too much freedom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @travsformation only time will tell how EUCs fit into traffic in future. To me they seem closer to a moped than a bicycle. The big difference here is though the propulsion aka a non- human powered motor. This means you can have power without the means and understanding the implications of apply this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @travsformation, @Unventor I think licensing depends a lot on perceived danger to bystanders and perceived role in traffic. Right now while we're in the grey zone almost everywhere, we're perceived as something between a scooter, Segway, hoverboard and bike. In that role, mostly running on bike-paths, a license doesn't make much sense. If our perceived role changes to that of a moped/vespa running with the cars and MCs on the road at their tempo, a requirement for a license will come almost automatically. It is less about actual danger to bystanders, as much as perceived danger. I real life a Segway is at least as dangerous as a EUC any day in the week. While we can drive faster, they are quite a lot heavier. While our wheels can tumble in a crash, they stop pretty fast. Seeing an unbalanced Segway do the "segway dance" can be pretty hairy. It is a bit like the proverbial bull in a china shop, and can happen at almost any speed if the rider is not 100% proficient. Hitting an obstacle with one wheel only is usually the culprit. The death of the former Segway owner was probably due to such a dance, where he lost control and went over a cliff. But no one has mentioned a license for Segways. I think the French have come the furthest in this. Their insurance companies offer insurances. There are rules that make the legality of riding less of a guesswork. I don't want a license, but I would love to be able to insure my EUC for traffic liability claims. It would both provide my fellow trafikants with the security of knowing that their claims won't be dependent on my ability to pay, and give the vehicle a form of respectability it currently lacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 6 hours ago, Scatcat said: I can't recall anyone saying you WILL die at those speeds. What I and others have said is that the risk of a life altering accident is a lot higher, and that you CAN die if you're unlucky. There's a clear difference between those statements. But put stuff in perspective. People slide off MCs at 50-60mph and walk away without a scratch. Others fall at half that speed and end up in hospital with broken bones or worse. Does that mean going 30 or 60 is equivalent in risk? Nope, no way! The formula you're (not?) looking for, is: KE= ½ m * v^2 Suppose a rider weight of 200lbs/90.8kg, and let's do the calculation of KE at a few different speeds: 10mph/16kph ~= 906J 20mph/32kph ~= 3625J 30mph/48kph ~= 8158J 40mph/64kph ~= 14504J Double the speed and you quadruple the kinetic energy. For reference the kinetic energy of a ten pound sledgehammer would be in the range of 400-600J, but of course the area affected is much smaller when it hits. But just as the ~500J of KE is what has to be stopped when a sledge hammer hits, the energy to stop with a 200lb rider and a speed of 30mph is roughly the force of 16 sledgehammers. Land on your unprotected arm, and be happy if you just break a bone. Do an unclean roll, and end up in a wheel-chair unless you're lucky. Land on your head and you'll probably not be happy at all, or anything else ever again for that matter. Walk away without a scratch, and I would tell you to buy a lottery ticket. People say you’ll “die on that thing” all the time. I’m not saying people do on this forums, but out in the real world they do. Even myself wasn’t too sure what would happen if someone fell at 50km/h without gear. I had fallen at faster than those speeds but assumed my gear had prevented me from even landing on my head or possibly rolling onto my back and causing spinal damage from impacts. The fact that have seen a documented case of what happens doesn’t mean I’ll suddenly go around gear less because I won’t die or helmet less because I won’t hit my head— it just is nice to know those speeds aren’t 99% “inevitable” death in a fall. I perfectly understand what COULD have happened, but in life there are TOO many what ifs so I don’t focus on scaring the crap out of myself and others with all the maybes. (I’m sure people do that to advocate wearing gear) Even your theory that if it were a smaller joint it would have caused permanent mobility issues is just that: a theory based on worst case scenario what if conjecture. We had a forum member on a Z10 fall at top speed and I believe shatter his elbow and that isn’t causing any projected life altering mobility issues. I’m just shocked that forum members who own EUC’s like to spread unsubstantiated, theorized assumptions about EUC falls in ways that do nothing but scare potential members away from the product. ”Do an unclean roll and end up in a wheelchair unless you’re lucky” is definetly something a new member browsing could see and decide entirely against EUC’s because of your roughly calculated theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Unventor said: @Scatcat not matter how hard you try you cannot educate people that isn't interested. Now I am 100% with you that riding an EUC involves risk taking. Do a calculated and smart risk easement well that means you listen and learn from experience. Apparently @Darrell Wesh chose to look at what didn't happen compared how close a call the viral video actual is. I looked at what actually happened. Why would I look at what didn’t happen? There are a million different scenarios in that video that didn’t happen. You could spend your life tied up hugging your chest shaking somewhere in a locked down room in an asylum because of all the fear built up about the million things that could have happened. Walking across the street involves risk taking. Think of all the what if’s involved in driving a car barreling down the road at 80MPH hoping other drivers see and react to you. What if he changes lanes suddenly? What if I’m too close to this truck and the cargo door slides open and I’m killed by cargo falling out? You cant live your life in fear of all the what if’s. If I were trying to bring more people into the EUC community I wouldn’t use scare tactics and fill this forum with what if conjecture. If someone asked what would happen if they fell at 30mph I wouldn’t tell them they’d be lucky to not be in a wheelchair. I’d tell them what’s been documented, not worst case scenario theorized commentary. I’d point to this video and point out what happened (broken bone(s) and road rash) not what could have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @Darrell Wesh I think we're talking at each other rather than too each other. You're trying to say that scare mongering is not the way to go. I try to say that we have to respect the dangers of going about three times as fast as the unassisted human body is capable of, on a vehicle without redundancy dependent on motor power and batteries to stay upright. Both of those statements are true, probably equally so. Going at 40-45 kph on a Z10, KS18 or MSX is no more dangerous than doing the same on a 18 gear, muscle powered bike with half-inch wide tires, clothed in spandex and with a foam plastic pot on you head. It's no more dangerous than going downhill on a longboard at high speeds. It is certainly no more dangerous than base-jumping or rock climbing, and people do that all the time. As far as that goes, your point is well taken. But I've been on this board for less than two years. During that time one of my acquaintances has had to stop riding. His kids had him promise not to ever do it again. Nowadays he has four titanium insert in his face to mend his zygomatic, his infra- and supra-orbital bones. He looked a lot like someone had taken the sledge hammer I talked about to his face. 40kph on an ACM with an open helmet hitting a pot-hole. Had he not had the helmet, that was trash plastic afterwards, he would probably not have needed any surgery ever again. I've seen a "respect the beep" guy overlean a Tesla at speed, breaking his collar bone. The Tesla almost hit a Porsche, which would have been rather interesting in legal terms. @Rehab1 almost stopped riding, and will have to carry papers through the customs if he ever goes flying, explaining where all the metal in his shoulder comes from. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love ain't too sure he will ride again, and he used to love it. @Unventor took a trivial spill this summer, and the abrasion damage ain't fully healed yet. At least a couple of guys have been pushed off the road by bus or car. While this should be an inclusive hobby, without undue fear mongering, we can not be blind to the risks. New riders should not have to learn the hard way to respect the limits of their machine and their skill. They should not have to learn from a hospital stay that even expensive gear is far cheaper than falling without. So what in this can we agree on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 And one was tinkering with batteries and left forever the hobby after a visit to the hospital. Shit happens. We are one open circuit away from total oblivion. This board has seen quite a bit of drama. My motto is "Respect the fallen and the ones that are going to fall!" Different people have different level of risk tolerance. They prepare or act accordingly and I respect their choices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @Scatcat I totally agree, it's about perceived danger. About riding on roads at the same tempo as scooters or mopeds, unsure what to answer. Despite not being motorized, bicycles have the right to do that, and can be a considerable nuisance to drivers, especially in the hilly area where I live, where they're doing less than 10 mph on hills, on major roads, riding 3 bikes side by side (which they're allowed to do). They're a hazard, but require no license and have free rein to do as they please. And as to mopebs and scooters (49-125cc), here in Spain it's not like license requirements or traffic regulations make a difference of any kind. The thing I hate the most about driving in Barcelona are the damn MCs. They weave between cars, pass on the right and left, or in between cars (on the line), putting themselves in risk every other second and making it extremely stressful for drivers. And considering the Spanish "law of disadvantage", where regardless of the circumstances of an accident, the law will always favor the smallest vehicle, even if he was driving like a complete dick, disregarding all traffic rules, it sucks having to deal with these reckless little shits because not matter what happens, it's your fault. In that sense, at least here, where otherwise reasonable people turn into kamikazes once they hop on a bike, I doubt requiring a license would change anything... 2 hours ago, Scatcat said: think the French have come the furthest in this. Their insurance companies offer insurances. There are rules that make the legality of riding less of a guesswork. Looks like we've finally got there in Spain too. I'm waiting for the paperwork for my EUC liability insurance to come through: 30€/year. (Not mandatory, but a good idea to have) 2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: I’m just shocked that forum members who own EUC’s like to spread unsubstantiated, theorized assumptions about EUC falls in ways that do nothing but scare potential members away from the product. I don't think anyone's trying to scare people away from riding EUCs, but rather suggesting they don't do stupid shit that can result in serious injuries. These "unsubstantiated, theorized assumptions" that you speak of, and your insistence on maybes and the fact that those of us promoting safe riding are focusing on what could have happened instead of what did happen seems like a weak attempt to defend unnecessarily dangerous riding. Maybe you haven't had any serious falls in your lifetime, maybe you're unaware of how delicate the flesh is when confronted with hard asphalt and concrete curbs (no offense meant), but there are so many variables at play in a fall at that speed, that the odds of coming out (more or less) unscathed are meager compared to all the things that could go wrong. I'm as glad as you are that the dude didn't result more seriously injured, and think it's great to know that not all falls at that speed are life-threatening, but like it or not, the odds of getting hurt by doing stupid shit are higher than when not doing stupid shit; I think it's a matter of statistics more than anything else: Fall at 50 km/h with no protective gear 10 times, then (if you make it that far), count how many times you get lucky enough to break only one bone and calculate the average number of bones broken/harm inflicted.These aren't scare tactics, they're just reality. Honestly, I feel we're doing the exact opposite of what you're suggesting: we're just promoting common sense, knowledge and safe riding so that riders (and potential future riders) can make sensible choices, thus leading to fewer serious injuries, fewer "horror stories", and less fear on the part of newcomers. And as to the dozens of analogies and examples that could be used as counter-arguments about lucky-ass-motherf***ers who fell on motorcycles at 80 mph...that's not the point. I don't mean to be a moralistic dick, but I don't think we should be celebrating the wonderful odds of suffering "minor(ish)" injuries after a stupid and preventable fall, but discussing how utterly stupid it is to push one's wheel to the limit with zero understanding of how an electric motor works and not the slightest concern for caution and personal safety. In drivers' ed, you're taught reaction time + braking distance; defensive driving; wearing seatbelts, not skipping red lights, etc. Same thing here. There might be morons out there who disregard all of that, get into an accident and come out unscathed. But should we really be celebrating the luck of such morons instead of pointing out what they did wrong and advocating for safety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Never gonna happen. Best thing we can do is Shame idiots. I'm sorry bro, "Speed Test" on a OEM wheel with no gear is pretty stupid. It's not even cool. Like what? You rode the beeper till you felt you've had enough then checked your app and saw a magic number? I don't get it. I don't get playing above the warning unless you're outrunning traffic. Its there for emergencies. +1-2 mph for what? Did you open your motor, rework the magnets and windings to get more power? No? Then wtf are you testing? We already know what its limit is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 @travsformation I could not post it better myself. And the example of motocycle weaving in between traffic as they please is excatly what I dislike in traffic. on thing is what you do on a race track but on public roads you are in public traffic, for anyone to predict traffic right you need to obey same standards. And you need to have some sort of safety margin just in case something unexpected happed. but apprently someone here didn't get that memo, and think in public traffic because they are "skilled" they can do as they they please regardless. Yes I had a crash but I did that in a closed off parking lot practicing, and I got cought off guard when I thought it was safe. I learned my leasson. @Scatcat was there too when it happend. I felt safe at the time, even up to the time when I lost my footing and contact with my wheel. at that point I was far from safe. but the good point here is the wheel catapulted forward at 30 kmh, BUT didn't hit anyone nor did anyone have to react or decide to weave from my wheel. A car driver reacting to a rouge wheel can end up on pavment or bikelave or oncomming traffic resulting in major accident. I stress it CAN happen...so the question how to avoiding it from happening. And don't give me the bs of skills...the only thing that saves you or anyove else is safety margin and luck, maybe expireance. So back to the mc weaving, they are stressing everyone else around them as they are removing the safety margin other have and they didn't choose themself. point of traffic is to get from A to B...all the way not just you but everyone else too. Now here in Sweden people are not yet used to EUCs so most don't know how to take into account these in traffic nor to look out for us....yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 14 minutes ago, Unventor said: @travsformation I could not post it better myself. And the example of motocycle weaving in between traffic as they please is excatly what I dislike in traffic. on thing is what you do on a race track but on public roads you are in public traffic, for anyone to predict traffic right you need to obey same standards. And you need to have some sort of safety margin just in case something unexpected happed. but apprently someone here didn't get that memo, and think in public traffic because they are "skilled" they can do as they they please regardless. Yes I had a crash but I did that in a closed off parking lot practicing, and I got cought off guard when I thought it was safe. I learned my leasson. @Scatcat was there too when it happend. I felt safe at the time, even up to the time when I lost my footing and contact with my wheel. at that point I was far from safe. but the good point here is the wheel catapulted forward at 30 kmh, BUT didn't hit anyone nor did anyone have to react or decide to weave from my wheel. A car driver reacting to a rouge wheel can end up on pavment or bikelave or oncomming traffic resulting in major accident. I stress it CAN happen...so the question how to avoiding it from happening. And don't give me the bs of skills...the only thing that saves you or anyove else is safety margin and luck, maybe expireance. So back to the mc weaving, they are stressing everyone else around them as they are removing the safety margin other have and they didn't choose themself. point of traffic is to get from A to B...all the way not just you but everyone else too. Now here in Sweden people are not yet used to EUCs so most don't know how to take into account these in traffic nor to look out for us....yet. Your spill is exactly the sort of stupid thing that can happen to anyone. All it took was missing a small stone on the road, that turned out to be a bit more pyramidical and substantial than it looked from a distance. You went airborne and the tire went flat in zero seconds. Your eyes were ahead on the tarmac where you were going to practice braking, half a second of losing focus on the ground you were riding on and that was enough. Such shit happens. In one respect you can be happy about it. You learned that your elbow pads were not ideal, and you did it without requiring titanium screws to keep your elbow together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 10 hours ago, travsformation said: P.S. The city council of Madrid is considering doing breathalyzer tests on EUC-riders; if you're above the legal limit, they'll be able to subtract points from your driving license... That's good. Test PEV riders like everyone else (cars, bikes, etc.) 1 hour ago, dieterGRAMS said: I'm sorry bro, "Speed Test" on a OEM wheel with no gear is pretty stupid. Anybody who "speed-tests" a self-balancing device clearly does not understand how they work. Maybe they deserve their crashes. Test where the final beeps appear at your weight, fine, but that better be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 45 minutes ago, Scatcat said: Your spill is exactly the sort of stupid thing that can happen to anyone. All it took was missing a small stone on the road, that turned out to be a bit more pyramidical and substantial than it looked from a distance. You went airborne and the tire went flat in zero seconds. Your eyes were ahead on the tarmac where you were going to practice braking, half a second of losing focus on the ground you were riding on and that was enough. Such shit happens. In one respect you can be happy about it. You learned that your elbow pads were not ideal, and you did it without requiring titanium screws to keep your elbow together Yep it sound odd maybe. But I consider myself very lucky to feel the pain of lesson. Event fully geared up I know now the possibility of unforseen accident can happen any time. Hehe just this morning riding to work, a rat jumped me..almost a small one. I don't have a problem with rats as long the are not on me or in my home. So I didn't react. But had I hit it I am not sure how the wheel balance would react. At the time I didn't ride that fast due to the dark and rain. I only saw it due to a 1600 lumen bike led lamp I had in my hand. I heard it screaming though before I saw it rushing across the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 5 hours ago, travsformation said: I don't think anyone's trying to scare people away from riding EUCs, but rather suggesting they don't do stupid shit that can result in serious injuries. These "unsubstantiated, theorized assumptions" that you speak of, and your insistence on maybes and the fact that those of us promoting safe riding are focusing on what could have happened instead of what did happen seems like a weak attempt to defend unnecessarily dangerous riding. Maybe you haven't had any serious falls in your lifetime, maybe you're unaware of how delicate the flesh is when confronted with hard asphalt and concrete curbs (no offense meant), but there are so many variables at play in a fall at that speed, that the odds of coming out (more or less) unscathed are meager compared to all the things that could go wrong. I'm as glad as you are that the dude didn't result more seriously injured, and think it's great to know that not all falls at that speed are life-threatening, but like it or not, the odds of getting hurt by doing stupid shit are higher than when not doing stupid shit; Honestly, I feel we're doing the exact opposite of what you're suggesting: we're just promoting common sense It seems like everyone thinks I’m defending this guy who overstepped the limits of his machine. To be clear: i’m not. My defense is against people that say you shouldn’t go fast on an EUC. I’m not sure what conditions you pilot your EUC’s in, or what your commutes look like, but a lot of users are not on some sidewalk going 5mph weaving between pedestrians while on their 25+mph 16 or 18” wheels. It’s not “unnecessarily dangerous” or “stupid shit” to be on the main roads with traffic that demands speeds of 25+mph. It’s using the machine as it was intended. A lot of city users get to their destination faster on one then via bus or car. Some have even sold their cars because of it. Like I said countless times, as long as you’re geared up for your appropriate wheel or speed you intend to go, it’s not a death wish to commute at high speeds. I know I’ve spent over $3,000 on quality gear (motorcycle jackets, cordura pants, helmets etc) just to have variety in outfits so I always have an impact/abrasion resistant top and bottom layer on me. I view my 18” EUC’s as motorcycles so you won’t ever catch me wearing just basic skateboard gear and regular clothes on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermes Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 I’ve thought a lot about this lately @Darrell Wesh. There are two rather divergent segments in the electric unicycle world: people who ride primarily on sidewalks and parks or other isolated bike trails and those of us who ride on the road with traffic. These different use cases engender different attitudes and expectations. Not that I think that this is crucial to the current discussion here. But there have been other discussions, particularly, that point up the differences in the way we use these machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 6 hours ago, Scatcat said: @Hunka Hunka Burning Love ain't too sure he will ride again, and he used to love it. I do miss it so. I was riding almost every day last summer. I couldn't wait to get on my wheel after work and on weekends to get outside zipping around, feeling the freedom of the electric drive taking me where ever I wanted to go. The rush of doing 49 kph on a single wheel while people are amazed seeing you zoom by is priceless. I had dreams of giving up my day job, calling up Jason, and renting an RV to haul around some EUCs from city to city in the US and Canada to do mobile sales and demo's. That would have been a blast. I think we all agree that it's unfortunate that the rider had that accident. No one likes to see other people enjoying this hobby get hurt, but there's also that other side of us that wonder why protective gear wasn't used and hope the rider learned his lesson about pushing these wheels past their not-so-well defined limits. Some people are masters at falling, rolling, and getting away unscathed while others take a spill at 22 kph over a simple sidewalk bump and have lasting consequences which end it all for them. Gravity doesn't discriminate, but sometimes it has to do with the luck of the draw and learned instincts for some. We all have our strong opinions on subjects, and I bet in a room with some drinks and snacks, everyone (mostly) would be able to share their views and be respectful of other's opinions at the same time. I doubt everyone would agree on every subject, but as long as it's kept friendly I think that really helps keep the discussion and people's minds open to each other and remember that commonality that brings us all together - the love for that wacky one wheeled ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: It seems like everyone thinks I’m defending this guy who overstepped the limits of his machine. To be clear: i’m not. My defense is against people that say you shouldn’t go fast on an EUC. I’m not sure what conditions you pilot your EUC’s in, or what your commutes look like, but a lot of users are not on some sidewalk going 5mph weaving between pedestrians while on their 25+mph 16 or 18” wheels. It’s not “unnecessarily dangerous” or “stupid shit” to be on the main roads with traffic that demands speeds of 25+mph. It’s using the machine as it was intended. A lot of city users get to their destination faster on one then via bus or car. Some have even sold their cars because of it. Like I said countless times, as long as you’re geared up for your appropriate wheel or speed you intend to go, it’s not a death wish to commute at high speeds. I know I’ve spent over $3,000 on quality gear (motorcycle jackets, cordura pants, helmets etc) just to have variety in outfits so I always have an impact/abrasion resistant top and bottom layer on me. I view my 18” EUC’s as motorcycles so you won’t ever catch me wearing just basic skateboard gear and regular clothes on them. As I suspected we were talking AT each other. You use appropriate gear, and I suspect your 18" has a top speed that at least on paper is 30mph+. You run with the traffic and adapt to the rhythm of that traffic. I can respect that, I do the same from time to time, but keep my max around 25mph since the GT16 is more of a 25, than a 25+ wheel. I DO wish though, that the next generation of EUCs has some real redundancy. Since a failure of the batteries or controller in an electric scooter means no more or less than stopping awkwardly, while the failure of a balance vehicle means learning to fly... So how do we discuss this in a way that we all can relate to? Less tomaeto tomaaato, potaeto potaaaato, and more about what really matters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 5 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I do miss it so. I was riding almost every day last summer. I couldn't wait to get on my wheel after work and on weekends to get outside zipping around, feeling the freedom of the electric drive taking me where ever I wanted to go. The rush of doing 49 kph on a single wheel while people are amazed seeing you zoom by is priceless. I had dreams of giving up my day job, calling up Jason, and renting an RV to haul around some EUCs from city to city in the US and Canada to do mobile sales and demo's. That would have been a blast. I think we all agree that it's unfortunate that the rider had that accident. No one likes to see other people enjoying this hobby get hurt, but there's also that other side of us that wonder why protective gear wasn't used and hope the rider learned his lesson about pushing these wheels past their not-so-well defined limits. Some people are masters at falling, rolling, and getting away unscathed while others take a spill at 22 kph over a simple sidewalk bump and have lasting consequences which end it all for them. Gravity doesn't discriminate, but sometimes it has to do with the luck of the draw and learned instincts for some. We all have our strong opinions on subjects, and I bet in a room with some drinks and snacks, everyone (mostly) would be able to share their views and be respectful of other's opinions at the same time. I doubt everyone would agree on every subject, but as long as it's kept friendly I think that really helps keep the discussion and people's minds open to each other and remember that commonality that brings us all together - the love for that wacky one wheeled ride! I do hope you find a way back. A set of gear and a riding style that makes you feel confident enough, while keeping you safe enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 12 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Tt seems like everyone thinks I’m defending this guy who overstepped the limits of his machine. To be clear: i’m not. My defense is against people that say you shouldn’t go fast on an EUC. I don't feel anyone was saying one shouldn't ride fast on his wheel (at least I wasn't; I don't go over 30 kph on my V8 because that's its top speed ). The argument I was making was about doing so safely (as in wearing gear and understanding the wheel's inner workings and limitations). Based on the unfortunate victim's account (here and elsewhere), he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of reduced torque near max. speed, or overleaning, or why cutouts occur. I'm just advocating for taking the time to learn certain information that can prevent nasty falls like that, and applying basic common sense (wearing protection), particularly when riding at speed. As an example, I initially didn't understand why my V8 was beeping while going up hills at 20 km/h or speedbumps at 15, when its max speed is 30. I took the time to research the forums and discovered that by not landing perfectly horizontal (perhaps I was leaning forward), or because the tire is "airborne" for a 10th of a second, it triggers a sudden current surge. I learned that on uphills, it's all about current, not speed, and that the risk of a cutout increases as I approach max. speed. Now that I know that, I only push it to 30 km/h in areas that I know well and where there are no foreseeable obstacles (there's always the chance of a cat running out in front of me, of course). But in general, I try to stay in the 25-ish km/h range, 20-ish in bumpier areas, to give myself (or the wheel) a catuious safety margin. The things is...I want to go faster. So I've ordered a new wheel. One with a max. speed of 50 km/h, so I can happily cruise along at 35-40 km/h knowing I still have a safety margin because I'm not pushing the wheel to its max. speed (And surely, I'll want to hit max. speed from time to time, but there's no way I'd consider doing that with zero protection; I wouldn't do that when cruising at 30 km/h either...). An injection cutout can be forced on a car too, but that momentary loss of power doesn't have the same effect as a cut-out when standing upright on a self-balancing wheel... In short, regardless of how one uses their wheel or how fast he wants to ride, all I'm advocating is for more knowledge among users ("know your wheel") and wearing protective gear, whether you're going 20 km/h or you're going 50. I think we can all agree on that 11 hours ago, Hermes said: I’ve thought a lot about this lately @Darrell Wesh. There are two rather divergent segments in the electric unicycle world: people who ride primarily on sidewalks and parks or other isolated bike trails and those of us who ride on the road with traffic. These different use cases engender different attitudes and expectations. Not that I think that this is crucial to the current discussion here. But there have been other discussions, particularly, that point up the differences in the way we use these machines. Although I understand and have sensed that division, I still think that, as I mentioned above, there's a converging area in both use-case scenarios that is/should be universally applicable. You can overlean going walking speed, and break your nose all the same. Understanding how the wheel works and wearing a helmet go a long way in preventing those unnecessary falls. 10 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: We all have our strong opinions on subjects, and I bet in a room with some drinks and snacks, everyone (mostly) would be able to share their views and be respectful of other's opinions at the same time. I doubt everyone would agree on every subject, but as long as it's kept friendly I think that really helps keep the discussion and people's minds open to each other and remember that commonality that brings us all together - the love for that wacky one wheeled ride! Amen to that! Hope you find your way back to riding. Time will probably help. Also worth noting: even if you're not riding, you're still here in the forums, so the flame of one-wheeled love is still burning! (Sorry for the pun...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 By the way, what was this thread about? To go back to the initial purpose of this thread, I think this here is a wonderful (and very Spanish) example of perfectly appropriate videos to post: Unboxing of the Z10 while making a stew: includes cooking tips, invaluable advice on why one should drink wine when eating stew, instead of Coke (as well as which wine goes best with a chorizo and garbanzo stew), plus, a few details on the Z10 It's all in Spanish, but you'll get the gist of it... (For those curious about the author of the video, skip to 10:28) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, travsformation said: By the way, what was this post about? To go back to the initial purpose of this post, I think this here is a wonderful (and very Spanish) example of perfectly appropriate videos to post: Unboxing of the Z10 while making a stew: includes cooking tips, invaluable advice on why one should drink wine when eating stew, instead of Coke (as well as which wine goes best with a chorizo and garbanzo stew), plus, a few details on the Z10 It's all in Spanish, but you'll get the gist of it... (For those curious about the author of the video, skip to 10:28) I just love Spain and its people! Everything can be smoothed over wine and food! Perfectly appropriate video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 43 minutes ago, pico said: I just love Spain and its people! Everything can be smoothed over wine and food! Perfectly appropriate video! I was in Barcelona in September. Now I want to go back. Wine, beer, food, and enough undulating bends to make your heart go booooom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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