Jean eRide.ie Community Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 Hi all, I am wondering, what is OK to share on social media and Youtube? Now that these things can reach speeds of up to 60km/h (37mph), is it OK to share videos of ourselves riding at such speeds? - They could be used in campaigns against electric unicycle and other eRideables, arguing that they go too fast and must be forbidden to use in public spaces. Is it OK to share falls for educational purpose? - Again, they could be used to "demonstrate how unsafe" these things are. (I'm not saying they are, it's irony) Is it OK to share videos of ourselves riding at high enough speeds on sidewalks when there is people around, passing them quite close? These are all things that we should not do in the first place, but sometimes they happen. Looking forward to your comments. I had the idea of opening this to discussion after seeing a similar discussion happening on this topic under the Rockwell section: ( @Scatcat makes some good points ) EDIT: To clarify, I'm not on one side or the other, I respect both opinions as both have good arguments.
Scatcat Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 My personal take is that the reason this question comes up is because we're going too fast in inappropriate places. I doubt anyone would care if we recorded running at 60kph on a race-track under controlled circumstances, with full gear, and a clear description that this is an extreme wheeling event, and "don't try this at home folks". I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I think that is problem number one. The public in general don't get what we're doing, and mostly think it looks dangerous. They don't want to see us run around at motorcycle speeds where pedestrians, dogs, kids and bikes run around. And if we do and publish videos of face-plants with injuries and with EUCs tumbling five-ten-fifteen meters at high speed, they won't exactly get LESS nervous about us. While I'm all for experience sharing with new riders, to let them avoid doing the same mistakes as us. We don't need the spotlight on how dangerous it is to do what we do. We need the focus to be on how to ride well and safely. As our machines still lack in redundancy and have historically failed all too often (I know first hand, as my GT16 let me down just recently because of a stupid BMS/battery cell issue), we don't exactly need to up the statistics of catastrophic failures - on video or off. We especially don't need people courting death on tape. So how do we go about experience sharing, without becoming our own worst enemies in terms of PR?
maxkan Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 1) dont do anything that you wouldn't be willing to share 3) share everything that you do, if you want to do so
meepmeepmayer Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 People will always find an excuse against something new, anecdotal evidence (in the form of "bad" videos etc.) or not (see: everything else, every moral panic ever, ...). Completely pointless to kneecap and censor our own discussions to our detriment, that's not going to help anyways. In fact, it is going to harm us. In my opinion, any exposure (no matter how negative) is a big net positive for us. "I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my name right" is the right approach. Videos of high-speed riding on crowded sidewalks only make clear we need better bike/PEV infrastructure. Videos of 60kph riding make clear we can't just be sidelined so neither cars or pedestrians are bothered, because else we're going to bother both of them. And so on - there's something for people to learn from pretty much any behavior, good or bad. But only if the behavior exists. That means: if people see it! People don't react to things they are told, they react to things they experience themselves (seeing a video or TV is close). If they see something exists, their subconscious knows it isn't going away and there are real people behind this. This will make them accept and deal with a situation instead of trying to prevent it (bans!) - because it's too late now, it's too big now, it's too unpredictable now what would happen if they instigate a power struggle. Hiding makes people think there will be no problem banning or limiting something because there's no real people behind it. Just look what lead to widespread scooter adoption. Spamming the sidewalks with dockless scooters, whether people like it or not, and the popularity proving there's a legitimate interest of enough people behind it. "Scaring" people (in lack of a better term) with EUC drive-bys and scooter purse-snatching is as nearly as good as any positive video. Add some videos of happy 6yo kids in Paris riding on 250+ person group rides for goodwill and to make clear that the bad stuff is the exception. This is how the world, history, the human mind work(ed). You don't get anywhere by asking in advance (unless you know it works, we know it doesn't for PEVs), you get there by making clear you have legitimate interests and (most importantly) you aren't going away, it's too late for that. So: If you want to discuss something, discuss it. Do not hesitate because of what other people might think. You're not helping anyone with this. The only reason where something should not be discussed is for personal/privacy reasons, like sharing a video of someone else's crash or whatever behavior when they don't want that. That should be obvious. Other than that, any exposure is good and any lack of exposure is bad. Skirting by with "nobody even knows EUCs exist" is a short-term plan at best. I do understand there's no need to rush or be careless or unstrategic, and that some people may hope EUCs will never find widespread adoption and they will stay invisible. But that won't work for more than a few years. That's how I see it
Scatcat Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 @meepmeepmayer I understand what you're saying. But I would prefer if the majority of what people see makes them curious rather than hostile.
LanghamP Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 There's nothing wrong with going extremely slow on crowded sidewalks. Indeed, when I'm feeling sociable I will do so and stop and chat with whomever I want to. Don't be an ass and blast by pedestrians. My philosopher, developed over the past few years after some thought, is that pedestrians are 100% in the right at all times (although that guy who knocked me off my EUC while I was nearly stopped still pisses me off). Doesn't matter where the pedestrian is, or what you are driving, assume the pedestrian is 100% right. It pains me to say this, but let's say the drunk pedestrian is wearing black and runs into you; I still think the pedestrian is in the right so ride your EUC accordingly. Therefore, riding an EUC as 51kmh can be perfectly safe should you do so in areas that are appropriately away from others, and also riding at 12 kmh may be too fast should you do so in, say, a crowded mall. Go the same speed as the walkers; you should absolutely be able to ride at nearly zero speed without drama, and be able to hop off while pulling out the trolley handle in one cool motion like me. I also don't frown on riding on the sidewalk, because like I keep saying; "Riding on the street is not safe because the road is wide, the cars go fast, and there's no bicycle lane." Hell, even the sidewalk isn't particularly safe to pedestrians due to driveways intersecting the sidewalk; ride long enough and you'll see a surprising number of pedestrians get hit on driveways.
travsformation Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 I'm not entirely sure I agree with you, @meepmeepmayer. We're here to stay and while exposure is a good thing (as is freedom of expression/posting) and initial public fear of novelty is a given, bad press can be detrimental to us, particularly since Tweets and Youtube videos started making it into the evening news. In Barcelona Segway tours of the city for tourists became a huge thing: hundreds of people who'd never used them before riding around the city causing all kinds of accidents and problems. When e-scooters and EUCs started to become popular, and the city council finally decided to pass regulations, I'd say it was all the bad press Segways got that tipped the scale towards very restrictive rules: only in bike lanes, THE END (fewer rights than cyclists...). Another decisive factor was that they considered EUCs as recreational vehicles, not mobility ones. In that sense, politics are often dictated by public opinion (or potential won/lost votes...), and we the riders represent the EUC community. Changing public perception by showing that we ride to work like any cyclist does, and aren't speed freaks menacing the safety of pedestrians can only be beneficial, while reckless riding that can potentially harm others is definitely bad press, and bad (for us) in the long run. I'm not going to mention any specific Youtube channels, but there are riders out there boasting of shit they shouldn't be doing in the first place, and publicising it for the whole world to see. "The world's gonna have to accept us sooner or later", but riding at top speed on crowded sidewalks (and posting it online) might make that acceptance come later rather than sooner... As an example, aside from the video in the OP, another video made Spanish headlines recently of an electric scooter doing 60 km/h on a main avenue in Madrid, where by law riders aren't allowed on roads and can't go over 20 km/h (ironically, no one pointed out that the taxi driver who recorded the rider with his phone, while driving, was also breaking the law...). A public outcry about the hazards of electric mobility vehicles followed, and tons of videos of reckless zig-zagging between cars and speed-runs in pedestrian areas were dug up to back their claims. A lot of people are now asking for tougher regulations on PMVs--and local governments are studying further options. To be clear, I'm not campaigning for censorship here, just for common sense. What we do (and post) affects how we're seen, which in turn, depending on how we conduct ourselves, can be beneficial or detrimental to EUC community (I'm not just talking about what we post, but how we ride, whether we're respectful of pedestrians, endanger others, etc.. And, of course, publishing such things is proof of it, for better or for worse). As another example, my girlfriend approves of EUC-riding, and has no prejudice, but when she saw a video on YouTube the other day of a couple of teens riding recklessly and doing stunts in the middle of a shopping mall, the first thing the said was "If they'd crossed my path doing that shit in the middle of a mall, I wouldn't have hesitated to trip them, would serve 'em right". Imagine anyone else who's not familiar with EUCs or is already negatively biased towards them.... My personal take on sharing content, for example (not saying others should do the same), is to share normal or scenic rides as public Youtube videos, and publish speed-runs (if I ever do any) as unlisted videos, which wouldn't appear in Youtube searches and I'd only publish here, for example. But that's just me, and I don't see it so much as censorship, but as "containment". Anyway, those are my two cents. I agree we can't tiptoe around, the world's gonna have to get used to us one way or another, but I do think there are things we can do to make things easier for ourselves, and things that don't work in our benefit.
pico Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 Seriously, this is the type of video I would like to see: controlled and curteous power. Not reckless display of ability(?) in a crowded environment.
meepmeepmayer Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Scatcat said: @meepmeepmayer I understand what you're saying. But I would prefer if the majority of what people see makes them curious rather than hostile. That's going to be the case anyways. The overwhelming mass of EUC (or PEV) content is positive, just check YouTube One single scare video isn't going to change anyone's mind. People who need something or reasons to be afraid of something will find it anyways. Every single person (minus one confused grandma) that ever showed a reaction to me riding was positive. Ride and be seen. In real life or on video. Nothing I said means one should act like an asshole. But if someone else (or oneself) does, I still think hiding it is detrimental if something can be learned from it (both by us and by "observers"). @travsformation You're not wrong anywhere. But that only sounds like trying to delay regulation, head in the sand style. Maybe that will work in some special cases short term, but what kind of strategy is that? Do you really think rules that allow the full potential of PEVs (from going walking speed along and talking with a pedestrian, to30kph on a bike path, right to 100kph on a highway, with the same device, no car license needed, no unnecessary limitations) would ever be made just from the lack of bad perceived precedent? Never in a thousand years! I'd rather have people know PEVs are not just recreational devices from some video showing one speeding 60kph on a road than keeping them in their ignorance from the lack of exposure. Seriously, that video probably did more for people's discussion and realization what scooters can be and do than any "good" content that would never be seen by the same people. The taxi driver example is a great one. More and more people will ask "But why can he do X if I can't even do Y?". Never mind some initial outrage. Yes, it may backfire, but what is the alternative? Just hope everything will be good? When did that ever work? We have some precedent that at best politicians are ignoring PEVs and at worst are sabotaging and delaying them for car and other lobby reasons.
meepmeepmayer Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 I guess to summarize my point, desensitizing people as quickly as possible may be the most fruitful approach. One way or the other, good or bad. As soon as there are so many PEVs that people will differentiate between PEVs and dickheads on PEVs, we're good. Before that point, what will break the association between PEVs in general and bad PEV examples? Someone will always be able to find or make up such a bad (potential) example. That's why I think hiding anything won't help.
travsformation Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: I guess to summarize my point, desensitizing people as quickly as possible may be the most fruitful approach. One way or the other, good or bad. As soon as there are so many PEVs that people will differentiate between PEVs and dickheads on PEVs, we're good. Before that point, what will break the association between PEVs in general and bad PEV examples? Someone will always be able to find or make up such a bad (potential) example. That's why I think hiding anything won't help. Very well put. Hard to disagree with that
travsformation Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 P.S. @meepmeepmayer Notwithstanding, I still strongly oppose all forms of assaholic riding and displays thereof
Darrell Wesh Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Jean Dublin said: Hi all, I am wondering, what is OK to share on social media and Youtube? Now that these things can reach speeds of up to 60km/h (37mph), is it OK to share videos of ourselves riding at such speeds? - They could be used in campaigns against electric unicycle and other eRideables, arguing that they go too fast and must be forbidden to use in public spaces. Is it OK to share falls for educational purpose? - Again, they could be used to "demonstrate how unsafe" these things are. (I'm not saying they are, it's irony) Is it OK to share videos of ourselves riding at high enough speeds on sidewalks when there is people around, passing them quite close? These are all things that we should not do in the first place, but sometimes they happen. Looking forward to your comments. I had the idea of opening this to discussion after seeing a similar discussion happening on this topic under the Rockwell section: ( @Scatcat makes some good points ) I’m not understanding what the problem is here? People video themselves going 60mph downhill on a longboard flying through red lights with NO ability to break and you don’t see politicians trying to ban long boards. The reality is that a guy fell going fast on a unicycle just like anyone could fall going fast on a bike, scooter, skateboard, motorcycle etc. Thats it. People fall all the time. This video garnered the views because it was technology most did not even know existed and it was also kinda ironic that (since no one knows wheels can cutout) kinda ironic that it looked like he “lost balance” on a unicycle going 50km/h. Entertaining stuff. Media at its finest. The kind of media attention that would get EUC’s banned isn’t this.
Darrell Wesh Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 If anything, videos like this should absolutely be shared so we can collectively analyze what went wrong and ask follow up questions so we can see a pattern of what body part gets injured most and ways we can better protect ourselves.
travsformation Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said: The kind of media attention that would get EUC’s banned isn’t this. Totally agree. This video is more likely to cause either sympathy or trigger the "stupid alarm". The ones that get bad media attention are more likely to be those involving a Z10 swerving between cars at top speed in NYC traffic... 1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said: If anything, videos like this should absolutely be shared so we can collectively analyze what went wrong and ask follow up questions so we can see a pattern of what body part gets injured most and ways we can better protect ourselves. Good point. On the subject of videos like this generating debate, it's been mentioned in that thread that the injured party doesn't seem to be aware of how a wheel works, e.g., overlean near top speed, loss of torque, etc. I've been accused of overthinking a fair share in my life, but am glad I asked around and did my research about how EUC motors work, or I'm sure I would have saluted the floor face first more than once... (especially when my wheel's top speed is 30 km/h....). Glad I'm inquisitive by nature and have such a wealth of valuable information (and patient forum members) to learn from
maxkan Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 7 hours ago, pico said: Seriously, this is the type of video I would like to see: controlled and curteous power. His moves sometimes look awkward and clumsy, not very good at advertising. Also doing tricks at the pavement is bad idea
Darrell Wesh Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 32 minutes ago, maxkan said: His moves sometimes look awkward and clumsy, not very good at advertising. Also doing tricks at the pavement is bad idea Try moving a 22” heavy a$$ monster that slow and see how you look!
travsformation Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 I agree there's something a bit off about the video. It took me a while, but I think I've figured it out : it's the shoes! One does NOT ride THAT wheel in public wearing THOSE shoes! Talk about making us look bad...
Jean eRide.ie Community Posted December 2, 2018 Author Posted December 2, 2018 9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: I’m not understanding what the problem is here? To clarify, I'm not on one side or the other, I respect both opinions as both have good arguments. People's and politicians' perception/opinion of small EVs is affected by what they hear on the news, and that affects decision making. I like learning from videos like these, they are the kind of videos that stop people from doing the same mistakes. So I don't want them to be censored either.
LanghamP Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 Then Rockwheel guy crashed going inappropriately fast for the wheel, but at an appropriate speed for the trail he was riding on.
kasenutty Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 I say don't hide it, put everything out there. It could help someone, I think it's good to see what happens when someone pushes too far. It's bad and other riders should know that. There's videos of guys killing themselves on motorcycles, cars, forklifts etc and all those products are readily available.
Scatcat Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 2 hours ago, kasenutty said: I say don't hide it, put everything out there. It could help someone, I think it's good to see what happens when someone pushes too far. It's bad and other riders should know that. There's videos of guys killing themselves on motorcycles, cars, forklifts etc and all those products are readily available. Yeah. Except all those vehicles have been around for more than a century in most cases. Remember the beginning of the car, where in some places there had to be a guy with a flag going before the car to warn everybody...
kasenutty Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 Maybe so, but I don't see being secretive or hiding stuff as being helpful. I used to think that, I thought that we should keep it all a secret for ourselves, and if no one knew, things would be better for us, but I don't feel that way anymore. You should throw all the chips on the table and see what happens. Information is good, and it should be shared.
Darrell Wesh Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 I think it’s good that this crash was documented to all as it tells two things: 1) even with no gear on the guy survived at 50km/h with only one(?) broken bone 2) he never hit his head even at that speed in a textbook fall scenario This will forever be a video of reference to put to rest the people that say you’ll die at those speeds.
travsformation Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: I think it’s good that this crash was documented to all as it tells two things: 1) even with no gear on the guy survived at 50km/h with only one(?) broken bone 2) he never hit his head even at that speed in a textbook fall scenario This will forever be a video of reference to put to rest the people that say you’ll die at those speeds. Although I entirely agree that it's good that this crash was documented, I don't draw the same conclusions as you do. I don't think it should be seen (this is just my opinion, of course) as proof that EUCs don't involve a risk of fatal injuries (after all, I don't think EUC-opposers are too concerned about our wellbeing, but about their own), but rather as a cautionary tail for riders on what not to do. The way I see it: He got extremely lucky. Had he rolled, hit a curb, a car (parked or moving towards him), things would have turned out much, much worse. He was also extremely lucky that what he broke was his humerus (it's a big, strong bone, and not an articulation): if it had been his elbow or wrist, the impact at that speed could have caused the kind of damage that results in permanent loss of mobility. In the post-accident pictures posted in the Spanish EUC Whatsapp group, he clearly has a graze on his forehead; luck again, it could have easily been a serious concussion instead (or had he hit a curb, a potentially fatal full-on skull cave-in) The video should be seen (in my humble opinion) as a textbook example of: 1) The importance of gearing up (especially if you're going to be riding at those speeds). That fractured arm might have been prevented by a decent elbow-guard. Not to mention all other crash scenarios that he very luckily averted, but in all of which he would have been better off wearing protective gear. 2) The importance of learning how a wheel works. For driving any other type of motorized vehicle, you have to take a course. With EUCs it's "unbox, watch a couple of Youtube tutorials (if even) and hop on". Don't get me wrong, I'm most definitely not advocating for mandatory learning courses, What I'm saying that there's value in taking the time to learn the basics about electric motors: torque reduction at top speed, minimal overlean/overcurrent margin near top speed, etc. (I've averted a fair number of crashes by taking my wheel's limitations into account wile riding--information I gathered by reading tons of posts in this forum and pestering its members with questions). Despite the video's protagonist saying that he simply lost balance, in the video he's clearly leaning forward to further accelerate, at 51 km/h and holding the selfie stick & camera (additional weight to the front)...looks to me like torque was about zero and the gyroscope decided to take a vacation (which definitely explains why one might lose balance while going in a straight line...) But regardless of the specific details of the video, it's definitely useful for it to be shared, analyzed and dissected so we can all learn from his mistakes (as well as from each others'). On another note, in terms of the discussion on "public perception" we had earlier, @meepmeepmayer, word of mouth, and talking to people who ask questions about EUCs, is probably the best way to dispel misconceptions. I rode to the local bar for a beer, and ended up spending most of the time answering questions for the lady at the table next to mine. Her feelings on EUCs were pretty much what she'd been told to think in the news: reckless youth endangering pedestrians; she even cited a few examples she'd witnessed in person of teenagers riding way too fast in pedestrian-only areas and nearly running over a "helpless old lady". A lot of what we discussed here came in handy, including how many 60+ year-olds with no desire risk bone fractures use PEVs on a daily basis to commute to work. The arguments YOU made, in terms of the distinction between responsible riders and assholes came in handy too. Towards the end of the conversation, they appeared to be more understanding and to have understood my arguments, and seemed more concerned about me hurting myself than about the risk I posed to others. Despite how well the conversation went, as they were about to leave (her husband was going to drive them home, noticeably drunk), I couldn't help myself from pointing out that their car weighs about 1500 kg (3300 lb) more than my wheel, and should anything go wrong for either of us on the way home, I was much less likely to injure someone with the kind of severity their huge metal box would...(especially considering that I was sober...) Apparently I plucked his ego-nerve so he decided to buy me a beer before leaving, to "level the playing ground", as he put it. The moral of the story being: if you have the patience to educate people on EUCs, you might just get a free beer out of it!
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