johnc415 Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Hi,I'd like to pose a question to those familiar with or have technical expertise on motor/battery engineering - while the "official" word is that KS units do not cut off when pressed past their speed max/battery output, has anyone tested this theory? When I asked GW about their lack of this feature, per the GW rep, there is no such thing as an EU that does not cutoff after exceeding max speed/battery output. While the pedal-rising feature may discourage further pursuit of higher speeds, it doesn't guarantee the KS units have a smart feature built in to prevent cutoff.I just want to clear up any misinformation that may be present - currently what I have to go off of is GW rep vs KS rep but we all know that testing it is the only true way to find out - or thru understanding how these motors/batteries work.Per GW rep, the new units will have an optional pedal-rising feature selected via their app - this was intentionally done for a couple reasons: in a situation where high speeds are reached and a cutoff is imminent, flat pedals are actually better than rising pedals for a user to bail. Either way, it won't be pretty but the idea is that should your feet be in an angle due to rising pedals, you can't jump off. Another reason: if you practice safe driving near the max speeds, you don't have to worry about the annoyance of the rising pedals. Having the option I think seems the best of both worlds. Not saying that beeping isn't annoying, bc we know it sure is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I talked a bit about this with Inventist (from Solowheel); As I understand it is true that *every* EUC can at some point fail to balance you. The name of the game is to stay as long as possible within the limits by giving feedback to the rider to slow down or stop the unit.The Solowheel Xtreme as a custom BMS that will signal the mainboard to take action (ie. vibrating the pedals) instead of cutting off at an emergency (like over-charge, under-charge or over heating). But I think that even with that there may be situations where it will still cut-off -- for example, on extreme overheating the batteries may vent and I would guess your unit will stop working. however, you would only get there by ignoring the vibrating pedals.I can't say anything about the King Song or Gotway but I would love to get clarity there too from the manufacturers. In general it would be great if every EUC would clearly signal the rider whenever any limit is about to be reached (too much current draw/too fast, too much heat, low battery, overcharge). IF you can talk to your the GW rep, perhaps you could ask the questions very specifically for each situation and get more clarity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 From what i read here about gotways is that they cut off to save the battery and/or mainboard, once you reach a certain speed.To cite hobby16: whatever the wheel does - burning or smoking - it should never ever cut the battery pack off and let the driver faceplant. Especially at 30-40kph!with my ninebot i experienced once the second stage kick back, when it limited to 10kph due to low battery. With the angle of this kick back stage you definitely wont accelerate anymore - youre happy that you brake and get straight pedals again! At least for me. And getting this degree of kickback at 30 or more kph one has to be very very convinced, that one wants to ignore this and still accelerates. Imho. But off course you loose some usable top speed by this.But there still should be a third solution - that the wheel just "fades out". Once you are getting near top speed, the pedal gets softer while one accelerates. So one is warned about the situation and once you reach top speed the wheel stops to support you leaning forward (stops accelerating) - so its a personal decision if one wants to outlean the wheel at top speed. And one still should have a good chance to regain balance - opposite to just cutting off and leave the driver flying...Maybe i should patent this idea and join the patent war between ninebot and solowheel, if this idea eventually proofes itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 According to my son who did the speed testing with Jason on the KS 800w and the mcmv2s + he ran off 6 or 7 top speed cut offs on the mcm but was unable to push past the pedal tilt on the KS, he did try.The KS seems to use all its extra power to implement the pedal tilt and then just refuses to go any faster. The top speeds were about the same but it was impossible to tell exactly when a bump or undulations would cause the mcm to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Besides quick accelerations, my Q3 will not go past 15 km/h no matter how hard I press, no cutout... With such a slow wheel it is constant tilted and beeping, can't help it....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc415 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 very interesting dialogue, thanks everyone for the input! so then my next question would be if the new GW's, once the tilt-back feature is enabled and is pushed to the max, will cut out. This is something I will look to explore once I get my hands on the MCM4; stay tuned! I just have to explore my surrounding neighborhood to find a nice "race track" similar to the one Jason found in the UK... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 We did the comparitive speed testing on a sports field 200metres or so up the road from my home. It is well rolled, the grass was cut fairly short and there are practically no bumps. It was a great surface for conducting the tests on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I ride at top speed on my kingsong 14" all the time and it tilts back all the time on me ehich makes it impossible to keep going faster. If i coukd stand on it, i believe i technically could accelerate further. Ive never experiecned a cut off so far.i dont believe the wheel shoukd refuse to go faster after the tilt back has been initiated. A refusal to go faster is almost as dangerous as a cut off , it means that you will lean forward but the wheel will not compensate for/ catch up woth the lean by accelerating, you will just fall forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 According to my son who did the speed testing with Jason on the KS 800w and the mcmv2s + he ran off 6 or 7 top speed cut offs on the mcm but was unable to push past the pedal tilt on the KS, he did try.The KS seems to use all its extra power to implement the pedal tilt and then just refuses to go any faster. The top speeds were about the same but it was impossible to tell exactly when a bump or undulations would cause the mcm to fail. Just for my understanding of unicycles - when your son tried to push the past the pedal tilt on the KS did the KS "increase" the tilt back or did the angle stay the same?If its the first (increase) i could understand it, if the answer is the second i would have to adopt my understandings so far to reality...... and additionaly i could do old man tilt back tests with my E+ too - set the speed limit to 5kph and try to push past the tilt back - thats a speed i should manage to go savely off the wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 When i have the high speed tilt back if i slow down the pedals either go back to original position or stay at same elevated angle. If i continue to ride at "after tilt back" speed they will tilt back more until i slow down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaleOsaurusRex Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 @CloudI wonder what causes the two different behaviors - either returning to flat pedals or staying tilted back. Is it related to slowing down different amounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 @CloudI wonder what causes the two different behaviors - either returning to flat pedals or staying tilted back. Is it related to slowing down different amounts?i am not sure myself, it seems random, it is possible that during a small angle change during tilt back it may still come back and maybe if you go over a certain angle it stays. Also it is interesting that if you turn the unit on when its in a tilted position, it doesnt always level out perfectly and stays in a slightly tilted position. Tuisi s not a big deal, you just need to keep it more or less horizontal when turning it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 When the tilt-back is +>16°, it becomes practically impossible to apply more power. Of course GW would give an account that TB is an unnecessary feature, since until the MCM4, they had opted not to implement it. For those seasoned forum readers (and those on FB), there are many instances of GW owner/enthusiasts exceeding the speed limits, resulting in various sorts of accidents. Nearly every other manufacturers has tilt-back—KS, Solowheel, Ninebot, IPS, etc. In my opinion, the arguments against are pretty weak; if tilt-back prevents the rider from exceeding limits, there is no reason to bail-out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Just for my understanding of unicycles - when your son tried to push the past the pedal tilt on the KS did the KS "increase" the tilt back or did the angle stay the same?If its the first (increase) i could understand it, if the answer is the second i would have to adopt my understandings so far to reality...... and additionaly i could do old man tilt back tests with my E+ too - set the speed limit to 5kph and try to push past the tilt back - thats a speed i should manage to go savely off the wheel The tilt back reached maximum and despite trying as hard as he could to push harder he coudn't get it to speed up or shut down.He was quite happily running of the mcm failures at the same speed which endomondo recorded as 27.5kph via gps, the constant beeping was deafening, so there was no way that he was holding back.He is 23 years old and weighs 90kg and we were on very smooth well rolled grass sportsfield. He is my test pilot as I am more cautious, possbly due to the fact that i will be 60 next January, wisedom comes wth age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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