New GotWay Nikola 17''

[Unventor]

Time for a massive group

[Lutalo]

38 minutes ago, ED209 said:

@Lutalo & @Mike Paolini, both of you raised some really good points! Let's call a truce! 🤗

Everyone has a right to agree or disagree with an opinion. This is all done in the spirit of sharing; and of building and strengthening the riding community. If one cannot accept the merits of an opinion that is contrary to their own then they should position themselves in front of a mirror and talk to the reflection that talks back.

Everything that I have said about the topic is immortalized on the thread. To anyone interested, reading what I have actually said on this topic is a better way to understand my point than the overly caffeinated, socially maladjusted responses of cantankerous old men. 

I appreciate you man for trying to bring levity to the situation but it's not necessary. It's done and dead. When I hit that wall I just

 

[Lutalo]

7 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Time for a massive group

[Unventor]

4 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I think you are in the middle. Varm and cosy 

 

[Mike Paolini]

7 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If this was me in the discussion I would have spent half the night awake with anxiety. I hope you guys are ok!  

In the end what are we discussing here?
We started discussing whether the Nikola is attractive enough to warrant purchasing despite already owning a wheel and then disqualifying it because it isn't bringing anything new to the EUC world. Are we defending our current purchase? What if we didn't own an electric unicycle? The Nikola just presents another option and replaces the ACM.

If we look at it from the point of view from Gotway:

A 16" wheel with a 17" fat 3" tire.
A digital voltage display.
Bluetooth speakers.
What seems to be mudflap functionality built in to the design.
An announced speed of 50km/h.
A headlight that adjusts intensity with speed.
A wacky handle and trolley.
The weight and dimensions of an 18" wheel.
A shell design more reminiscent of other brands with Gotway insides and we have yet to see what the programming is like.

Now all we have to do is merge OneWheel firmware into electric unicycles.

 

Slept like a rock thank you.

With respect to the Nikola, I think it is a very interesting wheel, but speaking as someone with both disposable income and who is in the market for a 1600Wh ride with a Fat tire, I suspect that it just misses the mark for me (and others).  

The down sides appear to be price (more expensive than the MSX by hundreds), extreme size, and weight.  I'd suspect balance as well, though we'll have to see the reviews.

(I'd love to be wrong here, and find out the Nikola is my dream ride  so I could stop searching for my next wheel as I already have a number of Gotway Chargers  ;-).

Really in this category, the discussion currently focus down to (for me at least), four powerful wheels with big tires:
a) Ninebot Z10 - $1,700 US, 1000Wh, 1800W motor,  18" x 4.1" wide inch tubeless tire.  Sexy Batman like look, Incredibly tough, life sensor. - and boat load of poor design choices and trouble ranging form battery drain, to regeneration, to melted control boards, and as a bonus  a sketchy future in the US at least.  

b) MSX, $2,100 US, 1600Wh, 2000W motor, 18" x 3" tubed tire.  Very tough, best reliability of the current generation.  Also thick, heavy, and has awkward trolly and lack of wiz bang features such as side lighting and BT Speakers and lift sensors or button.

C) Nikola - Estimated $2,250 US, 1600Wh, 2000W motor, reportedly 17" x 3" wide tubed tire. An MSX slight shrunk and dressed up for a night in Las Vegas.  Best in generation  speakers and lighting, solid adapting headlight, and finally a useful voltage indicator, more usable trolly than the MSX.  A lift sensor switch in the handle.  Also Expensive.  Large and Bulky. And so far has wow'd not one reviewer with its ride.  Probably worth the extra couple of hundred if you are looking at an MSX anyway.

c) KS16X - 1600Wh, 2000W motor on a reported 16" x 3" wide tubed tire (hello torque?).  Smallest Fat tire of the bunch, and maybe the new sweet spot?  This is truly the Dark Horse in the running coming from a pretty solid pedigree and sporting a lot of the right numbers.  Lots of unknowns, at least till next weeks rumored unveiling.  As a result gets a lot of hopes and dreams assigned to it.  But also gets the weight of previous performance anemic KingSong generations assigned to it until shown otherwise.  

Speaking of having hopes and dreams assigned to it, as a fan of small, nimble wheels, I'm actually rooting for this one.  I'd like it to be so good I stop looking at the Z10 and buy the KS16X outright, charge it up and ride off into the Texas Sunset on happy long distance, crazy fun rides.  That would be lovely.  Fingers crossed.
 

[meepmeepmayer]

27 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

c) KS16X - 1600Wh, 2000W motor on a reported 16" x 3" wide tubed tire (hello torque?).

Reported? Where?

Unless it's indeed reported, I think 16x2.5 is the most likely. Are there even 16x3 tires instead of the blown up 16x2.X that is the 17x3 of the Nikola?

I expect the 16X to be quite different to the Nikola, not direct competition. But we'll see soon.

[who_the]

With a good producer to keep you from screaming over each other, I think @Lutalo @Mike Paolini have podcast gold here. Don't know about you all, but I'm ready to subscribe.

In the name of consensus, and bringing this thread back, it's ironic there's a good chance the Nikola will cater to both of your arguments. It's certainly the highest level of innovation we've seen from Gotway, and will hopefully build upon their underrated engineering accomplishments with the MSX board. We can argue about the merits of top speed (Lutalo/Paolini Ep. 2? ), but we can be sure the 16X won't be faster than the Nikola, which basically leaves us in the same place we are today with the 18-inch class wheels.

And last thing, all of these wheels are so capable these days, that having "fun" on them really is up to the rider, not the wheel. The actual functional difference is really quite narrow for all but the most extreme use cases IMO.

[Mike Paolini]

10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Reported? Where?

Sorry, I don't have permission to publicly quote my source.  I should have said rumored to be instead. 
 

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Are there even 16x3 tires

Pretty sure you can search this one out yourself... the short answer is yes, and they tend to be used on Electric Bikes and choppers.  Seyoun  even makes one...

[Marty Backe]

56 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Reported? Where?

Unless it's indeed reported, I think 16x2.5 is the most likely. Are there even 16x3 tires instead of the blown up 16x2.X that is the 17x3 of the Nikola?

I expect the 16X to be quite different to the Nikola, not direct competition. But we'll see soon.

Considering that the Mten3 (10-inch wheel) uses a true 3-inch wide tire, seems reasonable that there are 3-inch wide 16-inch tires.

I've heard "strong" "rumors" that the 16X has a 3-inch wide tire. As I was telling Jason, I think the 16X may be the darkhorse of 2019.

[Mike Paolini]

@who_the  At risk of breaking my streak of disagreeing with people, I mostly agree with all your points.

3 minutes ago, who_the said:

With a good producer to keep you from screaming over each other, I think @Lutalo @Mike Paolini have podcast gold here. Don't know about you all, but I'm ready to subscribe.

I'm in.
 

4 minutes ago, who_the said:

We can argue about the merits of top speed (Lutalo/Paolini Ep. 2? ),

but we can be sure the 16X won't be faster than the Nikola, which basically leaves us in the same place we are today with the 18-inch class wheels.

I'm on the low to mid speed side (Less than 30mph max, but greater than 15 mph max

 

is my sweet spot, higher and it's too dangerous for me, lower and there's little point) of the argument because of the compromises  you have to build the motor to over come the resistance forces for high speed.  To understand this, it may be helpful to think of this in plumbing terms.   Volts is the flow of water through a pipe (or pressure if you will), Amps is the size of the pipe the water flows through.  Watts is the combination of the two - meaning you can get the same 2000W by having high flow rate and small pipes, or low flow rate and big pipes.  However while its the same net water delivered, I'd hate to drink from a high pressure hose.  Likewise, I'd hate to try to cut materials with a low pressure one.  

All else being equal, it sort of nets out to the higher the sustained speed you want to build for, the more voltage required which in turn trades off amps which are needed for raw power.  The reverse is also true, and more amps means more ability to stay upright, hill climb and so on.  (Again the combination of Voltage and Amps yielding Watts so given the 2000W motor number, there are many ways to gear it resulting in different performance trade offs.  Also why a 2000W Gotway is different than a 2000W KingSong - different engineering choices in how to get there,)

 To summarize,  generally given the same motor build, more voltage increases speed, more amps increases torque.  Changing the winding etc change this trade off but bring a different set of trade offs..

All this is long winded way of agreeing with you point that Nikola is likely going to be faster than the KS16X even though they both have 2000W motors - assuming KS has reused the same motor from their KS18L series. (And also a way of  pre-empting folks who would otherwise weigh in with an opinion generated independent of electrical background).

31 minutes ago, who_the said:

And last thing, all of these wheels are so capable these days, that having "fun" on them really is up to the rider, not the wheel. The actual functional difference is really quite narrow for all but the most extreme use cases IMO.

This is where I veer off a bit - and maybe you are episode #3, fun factor.

The tire size and characteristics, balance of the device, and motor characteristics - combined with the user feedback - all make and change the experience.  Or put another way, like the motors discussion, there are different ways to achieve the same net effect of 10 mph by trading off characteristics in tire (size, shape, materials, pressure), motor (torque, acceleration  deceleration curves, balance, width, height, etc)

As a result, not all wheels ride the same, and from that we can also say some are more fun to ride than others given the same task.

To use an extreme example, the 10" mTen3 is fun, I believe,  then any other wheel at < 5 mph, and it's fun involves its nimbleness and ability to balance at stand stills as well as change directions instantly.  It has a unique ride.  The tire is so small, it appears to read the users mind because as soon as the user starts to think about turning, their weight unconsciously shifts and that ever so slight shift is enough.  More the shape and width of the mTen3 adds to the low stability and fun.  Moving to the other side of it, riding the mTen3 at 20 mph can be nerve wracking because of that very same tire and how it picks up every groove and bump in the road.  It is not as fun to ride as other wheels at >15 mph speeds. 

My 2 cents.

 

[Heyzeus]

16 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Completely New Controller Design: ...... The MOSFETs(TO-247)—the solid-state components that drive the motor—are using a new state of the art chop which has a theoretical max burst specification of 1000A, & up 300A for a short sustained duration....

I'm curious, do you or @Jason McNeil , know what the burst spec and sustained spec are for the HY3712 mosfets that are on the ACM2.

I was able to find this:

Quote

On the previous ACMs+, the control-board was fitted with 12x IRFP4110s, with a specification of 120A peak (package rating) & maximum of 100V. This current generation Wheel now has, 12x of the new HY3712 model MOSFETS with a 30% higher peak rating of 170A & 125V maximum. This gives a considerably higher operating output level for running this tremendously powerful motor.

I'm guessing that the "peak" number of 170A mentioned there is akin to the 300A sustained of the TO-247 mosfets.  If so, what is the burst spec.

 

Is the following interpretation of the terminology correct or am I missing something here:

The burst spec is the amount of amps that the mosfets can handle in a short burst without blowing, and by burst I'm assuming that means something on the order of less than a second or two.

Whereas the sustained spec is the amount of amps the mosfets can handle for a short sustained duration of a few seconds or more without blowing

Edited March 7, 2019 by Heyzeus

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

I'm curious, do you or @Jason McNeil , know what the burst spec and sustained spec are for the HY3712 mosfets that are on the ACM2.

I was able to find this:

I'm guessing that the "peak" number of 170A mentiined there is akin to the 300A sustained of the TO-247 mosfets.  If so, what is the burst spec.

 

Is the following interpretation of the terminology correct or am I missing something here:

The burst spec is the amount of amps that the mosfets can handle in a short burst without blowing, and by burst I'm assuming that means something on the order of less than a second or two.

Whereas the sustained spec is the amount of amps the mosfets can handle for a short sustained duration of a few seconds or more without blowing

Without access to the circuit design for these wheels I don't think it's meaningful to ponder the benefits of one type of MOSFET to another. A MOSFET could be spec'd for 1000-amps, but if the supporting circuitry is not designed for it, then it's just a spec.

Since these are proprietary designs we will never know how any particular component is utilized. This is why I wasn't concerned when I heard that Gotway went with a smaller MOSFET for the Nikola.

An analogy would be the CPU in your computer. You can have the fastest Intel CPU made but if the supporting bus architecture isn't designed for it then your PC will underperform. 

[Mike Paolini]

3 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

I'm curious, do you or @Jason McNeil , know what the burst spec and sustained spec are for the HY3712 mosfets that are on the ACM2.

I was able to find this:

I'm guessing that the "peak" number of 170A mentiined there is akin to the 300A sustained of the TO-247 mosfets.  If so, what is the burst spec.

 

Is the following interpretation of the terminology correct or am I missing something here:

The burst spec is the amount of amps that the mosfets can handle in a short burst without blowing, and by burst I'm assuming that means something on the order of less than a second or two.

Whereas the sustained spec is the amount of amps the mosfets can handle for a short sustained duration of a few seconds or more without blowing

Sorry I have not done research on the ACM2, it never interested me.

Yes, Peak & Burst tend to be interchange able in my industry and imply short periods of time where "short" is usually undefined and slippery and changing via the sales guys needs.  It can mean things like where the resistors or fuses will blow, but in my experience it can also really mean heat and heat dissipation which is why it remains a slippery discussion.  That is factors like the type of solder being used, the amount, size of pads and wires and wire insulation and how they dissipate heat, even ambient temperature, and so on.  Burst in EUC cases means, the wheel demanding huge power to keep it self balanced (say you hit a hole for example).   This would instantly heat the wires and connections and as well as the part.  And this is what lead to the failures on some of the motherboards on the Ninebot Z10 from the images I've seen - the solder heated and parts shifted.  So even though their part might have been rated for higher burst, the installation of that part was faulty or under specified. 

Fuses tend to be a cheap insurance policy here.

Sustained means what they are intended/rated for.  

Does that help?

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Without access to the circuit design for these wheels I don't think it's meaningful to ponder the benefits of one type of MOSFET to another. A MOSFET could be spec'd for 1000-amps, but if the supporting circuitry is not designed for it, then it's just a spec.

Since these are proprietary designs we will never know how any particular component is utilized. This is why I wasn't concerned when I heard that Gotway went with a smaller MOSFET for the Nikola.

An analogy would be the CPU in your computer. You can have the fastest Intel CPU made but if the supporting bus architecture isn't designed for it then your PC will underperform. 

Beat me too it by seconds, and probably said better. 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Considering that the Mten3 (10-inch wheel) uses a true 3-inch wide tire, seems reasonable that there are 3-inch wide 16-inch tires.

I've heard "strong" "rumors" that the 16X has a 3-inch wide tire. As I was telling Jason, I think the 16X may be the darkhorse of 2019.

I hear a new order incomming😉 

Just spinning the rumormill, could a KS16X be a design for 16x2,5" that can facilitate a 16x3"

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Unventor said:

I hear a new order incomming😉 

Just spinning the rumormill, could a KS16X be a design for 16x2,5" that can facilitate a 16x3"

I"m done buying new wheels. As I said last year, 11-wheels is my limit 

[Unventor]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I"m done buying new wheels. As I said last year, 11-wheels is my limit 

Well...renting, leasing...😁 btw maybe your wife need a wheel too. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Unventor

[Mike Sacristan]

If we are measuring tires by bicycle standards then the MSX is 19" if the Nikola is 17".

I doubt the KS16x will be a 50km/h wheel. This would be out of character for Kingsong and would kill the 18XL. More likely 40km/h. And it will be a little fatty as well. The KS16s is a 16" wheel with a top speed of 35km/h and the MCM5 (14") can outrun it.

It's not all about speed though. My reasoning is that the good thing about having a high top speed is that you will never reach it by accident (unless you are Marty riding the MCM5 and not hearing the beeps).

What would be the difference in torque between the KS16x and the Nikola? 1" tire diameter? Does the same hold true for MSX vs K18L/XL? Physics would say so if we are using the same motors with the same programming, wheel weight, weight distribution, levers, etc.

 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If we are measuring tires by bicycle standards then the MSX is 19" if the Nikola is 17".

I doubt the KS16x will be a 50km/h wheel. This would be out of character for Kingsong and would kill the 18XL. More likely 40km/h. And it will be a little fatty as well. The KS16s is a 16" wheel with a top speed of 35km/h and the MCM5 (14") can outrun it.

It's not all about speed though. My reasoning is that the good thing about having a high top speed is that you will never reach it by accident (unless you are Marty riding the MCM5 and not hearing the beeps).

What would be the difference in torque between the KS16x and the Nikola? 1" tire diameter? Does the same hold true for MSX vs K18L/XL? Physics would say so if we are using the same motors with the same programming, wheel weight, weight distribution, levers, etc.

 

I don't think a powerhouse 16-inch wheel from KingSong would kill the 18XL. Gotway has the 1600wh ACM2 and the 1600wh MSX. They are both long distance wheels and extremely fast but ride totally different. I can't image a 2019 performance wheel from KingSong that would be limited to 40km/h.

The rumored spec's for the 16X have me excited. There's nothing like being able to take a small wheel on long distance rides, or to get lost in the mountains without worrying about running out of juice.

p.s. Have you measured your MSX tire? It's actually about 19-1/2 inches

Edited March 7, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Mike Paolini]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

What would be the difference in torque between the KS16x and the Nikola? 1" tire diameter? Does the same hold true for MSX vs K18L/XL? Physics would say so if we are using the same motors with the same programming, wheel weight, weight distribution, levers, etc.

 

In general, if the motors are the same, smaller diameter tires mean less load on the motor so faster acceleration and torque. 

However do not equate to 2000W motors from different companies as being equivalent.  The motors have different goals from the different companies and so perform differently even thought they both have the same computed "horse power"

[Jerome]

7 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

In general, if the motors are the same, smaller diameter tires mean less load on the motor so faster acceleration and torque. 

However do not equate to 2000W motors from different companies as being equivalent.  The motors have different goals from the different companies and so perform differently even thought they both have the same computed "horse power"

True that. King Song limits the power you can draw from the battery to a significantly greater degree than Gotway.  They both have big motors, big batteries and big mosfets, the difference is in the software/firmware.  There is no definitive right/wrong aspect to either of the approaches, although it has been argued on this forum to death.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Jerome said:

True that. King Song limits the power you can draw from the battery to a significantly greater degree than Gotway.  They both have big motors, big batteries and big mosfets, the difference is in the software/firmware.  There is no definitive right/wrong aspect to either of the approaches, although it has been argued on this forum to death.

But there are physical differences in the mechanics of the motors. For instance, the MCM5 motor was discovered to have much more substantial magnets than even the MSX, which probably helps to explain why it's so powerful. The KS14S and MCM5 both have 14-inch motors but that's where the similarity ends.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If we are measuring tires by bicycle standards then the MSX is 19" if the Nikola is 17".

Actually, the bicycle standard is stamped on the edge of the tire: 18x3.0 for the MSX, and quite certainly 16x3.0 for the Nikola. In motorcycles the MSX size is 2.5-14. Note that they are written differently.

Quote

I doubt the KS16x will be a 50km/h wheel.

The rumors at the KingSong subforum were 45km/h, and 16x2.5 that can accomodate a 16x3.0.

Quote

What would be the difference in torque between the KS16x and the Nikola? 1" tire diameter?

The difference in outer diameter in 2.5” and 3.0” tires is probably between 1/4” and 1/2”. I’d think even a slight difference in programming would have a greater effect. I consider KS vs GW programming being hugely different.

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

However do not equate to 2000W motors from different companies as being equivalent.  The motors have different goals from the different companies and so perform differently even thought they both have the same computed "horse power"

Exactly. Besides, the maximum sustainable motor power can be measured and judged differently. Sustainable for how long, for example. The same 2000W motor could be a 1500W motor for another brand.

For example, IPS Lhotz was sold as having a 1000W motor. In reality it was around 500W, peaking at around 1200W.

Edited March 8, 2019 by mrelwood

[Lutalo]

9 hours ago, who_the said:

With a good producer to keep you from screaming over each other, I think @Lutalo @Mike Paolini have podcast gold here. Don't know about you all, but I'm ready to subscribe.

In the name of consensus, and bringing this thread back, it's ironic there's a good chance the Nikola will cater to both of your arguments. It's certainly the highest level of innovation we've seen from Gotway, and will hopefully build upon their underrated engineering accomplishments with the MSX board. We can argue about the merits of top speed (Lutalo/Paolini Ep. 2? ), but we can be sure the 16X won't be faster than the Nikola, which basically leaves us in the same place we are today with the 18-inch class wheels.

And last thing, all of these wheels are so capable these days, that having "fun" on them really is up to the rider, not the wheel. The actual functional difference is really quite narrow for all but the most extreme use cases IMO.

Sorry. No episode 2 forthcoming unless it involves gloves and a ring. The upcoming 16x just might prove to be the first 16" wheel that I will purchase as a personal wheel. Lately,  I have been feeling a mild 16" wheel itch, because the fun that I am having on my freshly returned to the USA 18L makes me wonder how much more fun a 16" or 14" wheel would be. The Nicola? I'm looking forward to seeing how this first attempt at an all-frills wheel goes for GW; it's interesting. 

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I"m done buying new wheels. As I said last year, 11-wheels is my limit 

Sending me the Tesla would open up a slot 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

Sorry. No episode 2 forthcoming unless it involves gloves and a ring. The upcoming 16x just might prove to be the first 16" wheel that I will purchase as a personal wheel. Lately,  I have been feeling a mild 16" wheel itch, because the fun that I am having on my freshly returned to the USA 18L makes me wonder how much more fun a 16" or 14" wheel would be. The Nicola? I'm looking forward to seeing how this first attempt at an all-frills wheel goes for GW; it's interesting. 

If you're looking for a new experience, buy an Mten3