New GotWay Nikola 17''

[Unventor]

@HeyzeusDo something new is a matter of point of view.

To explain, I will use a car. A transport of 4 wheels and stering wheel. It has a 100 year plus history. Despite this new models are rereased every year. They are still a transport with 4 wheels and a stering wheel.

My point is the features may differ but it is still a transport. The major differences are ride expireance, safety and how you are transported.

My first wheel was Inmotion V8. My second is KS18L. Both and EUC, but what a difference between them. I will still argue the V8 is a great wheel in many aspects,  but the KS18L are much better suited to how I use my EUC today.  Any major news, not really both have still 1 wheel and driven by electric motor and battery pack.

As with the car example, ride expireance and safety are better yet only about 2 years in-between release.

As for the Nikola and KS16X going to be interested what people think reviewing those. EUCs are still in the early days so development still takes huge steps every year.

[Heyzeus]

55 minutes ago, Flying W said:

Yesterday I lost traction in some thick mud and couldnt catch my wheel.  I would love a water rating good enough to clean it with a hose. I will try to avoid mud from now on 

I would also ride in the rain to work of I knew the wheel was designed for it. Water proofing should be a high priority for the manufacturers.

Exactly, like I don't plan to ride through a foot of standing water or in a tropical storm, but it would be nice to be able to take my wheel to class on a cloudy day in march with a 20% chance of rain and know that if it does rain a little bit later I don't need to get an uber and I can get home without risking damage to the wheel.

It's not the most safe thing to ride motorcycles in the rain but it seems people who ride them if caught in the rain can ride their Hondas and Harleys etc without the electronics malfunctioning and breaking.

Given the location of the manufacturers (china gets lots of tropical storms right, at least in parts during certain seasons?) I would think waterproofing would be especially important since for many of their consumers this could be a primary form of transport.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Heyzeus

[ir_fuel]

44 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Given the location of the manufacturers (china gets lots of tropical storms right, at least in parts during certain seasons?) I would think waterproofing would be especially important since for many of their consumers this could be a primary form of transport.

All that stuff costs money to develop. Waterproofing and cooling usually don't go together very well, unless a lot of engineering is spent on how to combine the two. That costs time and money and will delay the product release + increase the price. How much are people ready to pay over a normal wheel to have a waterproof version? And how many people would buy it? Hard to tell up front.

Isn't the Z10 water proofed btw?

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

All that stuff costs money to develop. Waterproofing and cooling usually don't go together very well, unless a lot of engineering is spent on how to combine the two. That costs time and money and will delay the product release + increase the price. How much are people ready to pay over a normal wheel to have a waterproof version? And how many people would buy it? Hard to tell up front.

Isn't the Z10 water proofed btw?

No way is the Z10 waterproof or water resistant. There are gappy joints throughout. 

[Mike Paolini]

3 hours ago, Lutalo said:

What's wrong with an upgraded 16S? I can accept this analogy If you are comparing an 18L to a minivan because it's well designed, well thought out, and well built. 

In terms of performance, there is certainly no analogy between an 18L and a minivan. Excitement? If a rider is bored with how an 18L rides; blame the rider. 

Any analogy attempting to set GW and KS up as polar opposites on basis of performance will fail miserably unless the comparison is extremely limited and very specific. 

We must guard against Well built, well designed, and refined wheels being made instantly analogous to boring. If we do that then we cannot expect or demand real improvement in the wheels. 

I ride a KS 18L and XL,  but I truly believe that I would have more fun on a GW. The reason is because my XL is so beautiful to me that I prefer to treat it gingerly; even though it could handle much more than I ever intend to dish out.

I feel certain that I would not have the same feelings of attachment to the roughly equivalent GW. I would be more willing to rough it up adventure riding because I don't like it as much as the KS (and I would only buy a used device).

18L? Minivan? Helllll nah! How about this for car simile:

KSXL - Benz S65 AMG coupé. 

KS18L - Benz E63 AMG 

MSX - Dodge Hellcat

😉👍

 

 

 

Well I was trying to be graceful here, but since you asked, to answer your question rather specifically, it's the capabilities of the wheel and the feel of the peddles.  Specially the Gotway's accelerate faster (with less complaining and arguing - and I know this from racing them side by side with the KingSongs as we zip around town ands switching off with other riders.  Also worth saying at 210 pounds I'm the heaviest rider of our group, and my gear and water adds another 10-20 pounds.  This is true also of the current generation KS18XL and the MSX we have both here, as well as previous generations).  Further, they are capable of breaking harder and the peddles are adjustable from very soft to very hard depending on rider preference (though peddle ride may be subjective, acceleration and stopping is not).

More Gotways allow higher speeds at <50% battery then the KS, and don't start to reduce until <20%.  And they don't constantly bitch at you in an annoying KingSong voice while doing it).  KingSong which will continuously reduce the riders speed once the batter crosses that 50% threshold and become unbearably slow as they get to less than 25%

And this should be no surprise as KingSong, like the InMotion, prefer to error on the side of rider safety.  Much like a minivan, they are intended to be be a safe vehical to get you from point a to point b and to insulate you from any decision  the driver might make they deem unreasonable.  

Gotway on the other hand, takes the sports car philosophy.  Allowing the driver to take control, make choices, live with the consequences and offering up every bit of power the vehicle can offer - trusting that the driver is capable of making choices.  

And that is as it should be, not all drivers are cut out for race tracks, understand physics or have reflexes.  Nothing wrong with a Minivan for getting from point A to point B I've driven them to nearby cities with a load of people - but I'd never take it on a long windy road for fun the way I would my old convertible 2 seater Mercedes 350SL or even a Mini Cooper for that matter.   I can't explain it better than that, and if you don't get it, count yourself lucky and enjoy your KingSong ride - still state of the art.

 

3 hours ago, Lutalo said:

That is because GW did nothing new; no added features. They got better building the same device they have always built; as they should have. MSX for example is a very simple wheel; GW improved the build components, and that improvement is great; but, quite normal and within the realm of what customers should be able expect if you are building basically the same shit over and over again.  

As with any product line new tech and features add complexity. Complexity adds problems. Reliability wanes as complexity increases. This will happen with all wheel brands that dare to step up their game. For example; all problems with the KS18L were related to the new features and added complexities; I know because I have experienced them all; except wheel lockup (I escaped the issue until after the FW upgrade and experienced only the fail-safe shut-down).

For GW, the Nicola represents an attempt at a more refined wheel. Let's see how many years it takes them to get this one right. I wish them luck. I think that it's certainly a good idea for them to pursue a more refined approach to wheel building. 

This is just BS just pure and shows a lack of understanding on your part of both what was involved, what happened, and basic development and testing methodologies. (FYI I'm an hardware and software Engineer by training so this isn't me being a Monday Morning QB with zero knowledge of the game).

First Gotway is constantly building new and pushing the limits from the mTen3 10" to the MCM5 14" to the Tesla and Nikola 16" to the MSX 18" to the Monster 22".  KingSong has a much reduced set of offerings.   You really don't want to get into a comparison of leader and innovation between the 2 because the answer is pretty darn clearly Gotway.

Second, the MSX had a lot of new in it and was a major upgrade.  Especially for the  parts that matters the most and hardest to get correct, the control board (busted on the KS18XL) and MOSFETs (busted on the Ninebot Z6-10 at a 20% failure rate).  EWheels as a partial break down on the old vs new on their webpage if you wish to become educated on the subject.  

Third, as I understand it, we aren't talking rocket science here - KingSong failed on Batteries and drain - a technology that hasn't changed in years and something that is part of every wheel ever made.  Second they failed on a feature they introduced in the sensor lift which turned out to be a motherboard grounding issue (static electricity was their last official answer that I saw) issue and while you might say a lift sensor is complicated, it is a known technology and has been for years on other parts, and this was demonstrated by Ninebot nailing it 100% on the first attempt at the same time King Song was failing. Also grounding and static electricity pretty well understood these days.  Similar comments on the other issues for them, and on InMotion with respect to waterproofing the batteries, and for Ninebot on the battery drain and MOSFET melting issues.

Reading this it's pretty blunt, and I apologize for any offense you might take in reading it, but this is the world as I see it and you did ask for me to be specific.  

 Happy Wheeling. 

[Rehab1]

12 hours ago, jitesar said:

Just for comparison. We can see what part of the whole chassis the wheel occupies.

Optically Nikola looks as circle but it is more ellipse with big part on the top.

 After looking at this side comparison I was compelled to give my Z10 a big hug. 

[Mike Paolini]

20 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

 After looking at this side comparison I was compelled to give my Z10 a big hug. 

@Rehab1

Are you still loving your Z10?  I'm considering grabbing one, but am a little hesitant because of the warts in design and service.  However, ride trumps these things imo.  What are your thoughts?  Is the Z10 still a worthy purchase in 2019?

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

But to say gotway has done nothing new doesn't seem quite accurate, even if what they're doing that's new is pushing the limits of 14 inch and 16 inch wheels through refinement and upgrades.

When I said nothing new, I spoke specifically of the MSX as compared to the 18L; not the 18L compared to the 16S, or any GW 16 or 14" wheels. Tech sharing among models is normal within any brand. I don't usually speak on smaller wheels because I don't ride them very often. 

The 18L has many more complex features: automatic lift stop sensor, Bluetooth speakers, led lights, cleverly and uniquely integrated trolley handle.

MSX does not compare in terms of complexity and features offered; period. GW refined their build process with the MSX, but did not increase the complexity or sophistication of the wheel as did KS, IM, 9B. That fact will be totally irrelevant to some buyers, and the most relevant factor to others; either way it is totally cool; something for everyone. That is why each brand sells a bunch of wheels to a bunch of different people. 

Let me be clear. We are talking about complexity and refinement within the context of EUCs. None of them are terribly complex in the scheme of technology available to people. All of them have a super long way to go. Nevertheless, I feel that KS is a bit ahead of the game with the 18L/XL in making sophisticated hybrid-purpose wheels. 

All of the advanced wheels are too heavy. Available battery tech is limited. More range means more weight. More range is not an advancement; because the extra weight requires too much sacrifice in other realms of performance in order to achieve it. I know from riding two wheel's that are identical outside the battery pack; the lighter one performs better, yet the heavier wheel manages to feel more satisfying on longer expeditions. 

I think it was @eddiemoy who talked about the poor general design of wheel hub motors, and how it negatively impacted the performance characteristics because manufacturers continued to attach the same motor casing to taller spokes to achieve larger diameter wheels. The fact that there is not yet a way to affordable means to provide better wheel hub tech to optimize performance for each wheel size is an advancement limit along with battery tech. 

Essentially, I think wheels in general are still in the Flintstones stage of advancement compared to what is possible.

I think the growth curve for advancement has somewhat leveled for a bit. All Manufacturers - in the absence of better technology will shift to making their wheels more appealing with added features, unique design statements, and specialized appeal to stand apart from other brands; hence the Nicola and coming 16X. 

EUCs cannot advance much further until associated tech advancements are more affordable and available, or until small scooter manufacturers become industry giants and have the resources to spearhead relevant R&D.

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

@Rehab1

Are you still loving your Z10?  I'm considering grabbing one, but am a little hesitant because of the warts in design and service.  However, ride trumps these things imo.  What are your thoughts?  Is the Z10 still a worthy purchase in 2019?

Yes I love my Z! A pure joy to ride especially through trails. When I hear rumors that Ninebot will discontinue the Z it drives me crazy. So much R&D when into the development of this wheel.

If you can pick one up at a decent price then it might be worthwhile but not knowing what the future holds in terms of obtaining parts and service for the Z can be risky. @Marty Backe do you have anything to add?

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Michael Hernandez said:

I think these ergonomics make the KS18L a big win. My KS18L is embarrassingly loud and a stiff ride over rough pavement, also 1000wh, if the Nikola addresses my KS18L gripes I'll make the switch.

Have you tried lowering your tire pressure? It could make a big difference. My wheels absorb rough pavement very nicely. So, maybe try adjusting (lowering) the pressure a bit. 

[Lutalo]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think if you owned a Tesla you would treat it like your KingSong wheels. I think it's the best looking wheel (during the day and night) that Gotway has made, and is a beautiful riding wheel too.

Maybe you will let me borrow yours 

👍

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

More Gotways allow higher speeds at <50% battery then the KS, and don't start to reduce until <20%.  And they don't constantly bitch at you in an annoying KingSong voice while doing it).  KingSong which will continuously reduce the riders speed once the batter crosses that 50% threshold and become unbearably slow as they get to less than 25%

The XL does not limit speed until 20%, and the annoying voice is an app feature that can be turned off; just saying. 

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Yes I love my Z! A pure joy to ride especially through trails. When I hear rumors that Ninebot will discontinue the Z it drives me crazy. So much R&D when into the development of this wheel.

If you can pick one up at a decent price then it might be worthwhile but not knowing what the future holds in terms of obtaining parts and service for the Z can be risky. @Marty Backe do you have anything to add?

I keep telling people that my Z10 is always nearest to the door when I go for a ride.

If the cost is a major consideration in your purchase (i.e., the loss of the ~$2k would greatly affect you) than I would be hesitant to recommend the Z10. Otherwise, it's one of only a few truly unique wheels that are a joy to own and should be owned.

I have many wheels that satisfy riding conditions that keep my Z10 at home. And I love those wheels (I do have a problem in that I find it difficult to dislike any wheel). But the Z10 is my favorite wheel. If I don't need the unique capabilities of my other wheels (range, power, etc.), I grab the Z10 when leaving the house.

 

[Mike Paolini]

@Lutalo

41 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

When I said nothing new, I spoke specifically of the MSX as compared to the 18L; not the 18L compared to the 16S, or any GW 16 or 14" wheels. Tech sharing among models is normal within any brand.

Alright point by point it is, one last time.  

First off the easy stuff.   Bluetooth speakers are not innovation and not complicated, it's a $2 part to buy and install on any anything with 5v power supply, and it's basically been in every version of KS products for years (meaning it isn't new, though the version of the board they buy to use may be most recent).   LED Lights - really?  Again see amazon or really any supplier of your choice, they are design or engineering them, they are buy the part and putting it on a 5v power supply, much like I do with my backpack leveraging a USB Power bank.  Hell the LED's I use on my Backpack even have a microphone and dance to my music in the same manner is the KS18L (they call it dynamic mode).  $20 on Amazon ( https://www.amazon.com/DreamColor-Digital-Changing-Waterproof-Backlight/dp/B0796TLP4S/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=dreamcolor+usb+led+music&amp;qid=1551928096&amp;s=gateway&amp;sr=8-1-spons&amp;psc=1  ).  

The mechanical handle I'll give you they did design, but it is essentially the same one they used in the KS16 with an extra hole for an extra stop.  

So let's be real clear, so far in this list, this isn't innovation engineering at all, what you've named isn't even in their core competency as a company its things they like buy from others - like tires.

That brings us to the life stop sensor,  which I'll grant you is real innovation - and a cleaver way to get around the InMotion Patent for the button.  I applaud Ninebot for thinking of it, and just wish when KingSong "borrowed" from Ninebot they correctly implemented circuit, grounding it, to avoid those lockups.  Even so they did, eventually so pat on the back.

Now on to your contrasting points - 

"MSX does not compare in terms of complexity and features offered; period. GW refined their build process with the MSX, but did not increase the complexity or sophisticationof the wheel as did KS, IM, 9B"

Okay since you won't look it up yourself, let me do it for you (and buy the way, this is in house engineering on their core competency and it's not easy stuff)

"Completely New Controller Design: the most significant changes on the MSX are to be found under-the-hood, on the controller, which has has an entirely new architecture. The MOSFETs—the solid-state components that drive the motor—are using a new state of the art chop which has a theoretical max burst specification of 1000A, & up 300A for a short sustained duration. The TO-247 MOSFET package has a superior heat dissipation properties, also the heat-sinks are applied over a larger surface area for superior cooling. The result is a controller that can now provide twice the amount of sustained power over the previous type.     

Low Resistance Board Connectors: with such high currents, the motor wires & connectors must be up to the job of supporting them. On the V3S+, these motor wires were soldered directly onto the board, connected to the motor with a EC5 banana connectors. The main disadvantage of these, was that it was time-consuming & troublesome to change an innertube, where the heat-shrink insulation had to be cut opened & new ones fitted. Now the connectors are screwed directly into the board, easing routine maintenance work, while also introducing less resistance in the connector interface."

Not only complexity and sophisticated, result in actual huge performance gains.  We good here or do I need to keep going?  The innovation on the MSX is in the controller, the power train, and the motor.  It's not visible to see like LED's, but you sure as hell experience it.

50 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

None of them are terribly complex in the scheme of technology available to people

Yea, we are going to disagree here because self balancing, at speed, given the inputs and the road conditions is nothing short of AMAZING.

51 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I feel that KS is a bit ahead of the game with the 18L/XL in making sophisticated hybrid-purpose wheels. 

Yea, thats the fanboy in you talking (and yes I'm categorizing you as a fanboy at this point).  The 18L and 18XL are not hybrid-purpose at all, they are commuter wheels for street use.   If you want to talk hybrid (which I assume means on road and off road since you haven't defined it, and there isn't a lot else they  can do), then you need to go look at what people are actually using off-road (no surprises here, it's Gotway MSX and Ninebot Z series).

I'm going to ignore the whole bit on Hub motors and batteries, because its off top for KingSong Innovation vs Gotway - they are both using the same things often from the same suppliers so its a push.

57 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

EUCs cannot advance much further until associated tech advancements are more affordable and available, or until small scooter manufacturers become industry giants and have the resources to spearhead relevant R&D.

Sigh, sure whatever - products do not advance without R&D and development got it.  Agreed on the need to spend, disagree on them being stuck or requiring new tech to break ground.
 

49 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

The XL does not limit speed until 20%, and the annoying voice is an app feature that can be turned off; just saying. 

Good to know they "innovated" here by copying Gotway and the other vendors, finally.  Can't wait to see what they do next, maybe putting a 1600 Wh battery and 2000W motor on a smaller than 18" tire - you know something like the Nikola. ;-)

 

[Lutalo]

6 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

This is just BS just pure and shows a lack of understanding on your part of both what was involved, what happened, and basic development and testing methodologies.

OK. You just earned a time out young man. 

6 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Reading this it's pretty blunt, and I apologize for any offense you might take in reading it, but this is the world as I see it and you did ask for me to be specific.  

It's hypocrisy to choose to be rude and disrespectful and then apologize for it. Since your self-described term for this tirade is merely "blunt", perhaps you don't realize that you must manage these deep emotions of yours. 

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Good to know they "innovated" here by copying Gotway and the other vendors, finally.  

You put the word innovation in quotation marks? Who the heck are you quoting? Are you arguing with yourself? Please find in any of my statements where I equated battery size with innovation. You introduced that word and concept into the conversation and proceeded to argue about it.🤔🤔🤔🤔

KS certainly followed GW's lead on the 1554wh battery because their loyal customers demanded it. Faced with waning customer loyalty; they gave them what they asked for. All I can say to that is smart Fu?%$@& move KS. They are selling the hell out that XL; I bought one, and an 18L too; fantastic wheels.

Talk a bit more about copying? I feel imitation is the greatest form flattery. So, KS and IM should be downright blushing over the Nicola . And to that I say; smart Fu%$@?+ move GW.

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

The 18L and 18XL are not hybrid-purpose at all, they are commuter wheels for street use.  

 You really should have thought this statement out more carefully dude. you clearly don't ride 18L's. There are all sorts of Vids available of people riding 18Ls and XLs in all manner of conditions; snow, ice, dirt trails, and paved roads that easily refute this surprising statement from a wheel erudite such as yourself. 

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Yea, thats the fanboy in you talking (and yes I'm categorizing you as a fanboy at this point).  

You may realize by now that you have managed to earn a very special category in my mind as well 

[Marty Backe]

21 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

OK. You just earned a time out young man. 

It's hypocrisy to choose to be rude and disrespectful and then apologize for it. Since your self-described term for this tirade is merely "blunt", perhaps you don't realize that you must manage these deep emotions of yours. 

You put the word innovation in quotation marks? Who the heck are you quoting? Are you arguing with yourself? Please find in any of my statements where I equated battery size with innovation. You introduced that word and concept into the conversation and proceeded to argue about it.🤔🤔🤔🤔

KS certainly followed GW's lead on the 1554wh battery because their loyal customers demanded it. Faced with waning customer loyalty; they gave them what they asked for. All I can say to that is smart Fu?%$@& move KS. They are selling the hell out that XL; I bought one, and an 18L too; fantastic wheels.

Talk a bit more about copying? I feel imitation is the greatest form flattery. So, KS and IM should be downright blushing over the Nicola . And to that I say; smart Fu%$@?+ move GW.

 You really should have thought this statement out more carefully dude. you clearly don't ride 18L's. There are all sorts of Vids available of people riding 18Ls and XLs in all manner of conditions; snow, ice, dirt trails, and paved roads that easily refute this surprising statement from a wheel erudite such as yourself. 

You may realize by now that you have managed to earn a very special category in my mind as well 

I'm getting afraid watching you two guys talk   I hope it doesn't come to blows 

[Gaz Bon]

Wow I get stuck after writing a few lines on my opinions as they are short and sweet 

Lutalo I like your writing style some times goes on a bit too long,  but nice wording and flow ✍️😎

 

 

 

[Mike Paolini]

@Lutalo

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

OK. You just earned a time out young man.

lmao.  I'm not a young man at all.  I'm a cranky old geezer with an allergy to bullshit and bullshiters and I'm afraid I fail to recognize the authority and age assumed condensation you are assuming for yourself here as anything other than redirection from topics at hand.

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

It's hypocrisy to choose to be rude and disrespectful and then apologize for it. Since your self-described term for this tirade is merely "blunt", perhaps you don't realize that you must manage these deep emotions of yours. 

3 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

It was a pre-emptive attempt to stop you reading it wrong - because as most people realize, writings do not convey tone well.   That in spite of your aggressive tone which you took and I  almost commented on before removing in an effort to tone it down some.

At the time I meant it.  That is it was an honest try to say hey don't read this too harshly as it was not intended that way.

However given the ongoing dialog, I've come to the twin realizations that a)  I'm okay with offending you, and b) that it is highly likely you were going to take offense at anything, no matter the tone or presentation anyway  -  because the act of taking offense is itself a redirection from the realization you were spout things publicly that were easy show to be incorrect in the first place.  And rather than recanting after being shown the facts and errors, you double down trying to redirect it with "time out", "Young man", and "hypocrisy" and other devices hoping reader will be distracted from the your previous errors and failure to acknowledge them.  Probably works a lot of the time too... but not this time.
 

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

You put the word innovation in quotation marks? Who the heck are you quoting? Are you arguing with yourself?

So I'm going to do 2 things here.  First let me once again educate you here on quotations marks, then I'm going to call you on your bs here.

  https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks-around-a-single-word/  
------------

Quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term. 

He said he was “working”; it looked to me like he was procrastinating.
----------

I did not agree with your use of the term innovation being used for the act of copying so I used standard grammar construct of quotes to convey that.

Now on to calling your BS.  Let me refer to your opening section where  you used my own word blunt in quotes (also reproduced above in my opening here).  I'm pleased to say it was a proper use of the quotes, fitting in with the grammar reference above because you made it clear you did not think it was blunt at all but rather something else.   However this does beg the question, if you knew what the quotes mean and how to use them as a grammar device, why go down the path you did pretending you did not?  More redirection?  Seems you'll try anything to change direction and topic.   Thats a bad habit you have there, and it also speaks to your character which up to now I've omitted commenting on.

 

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

You really should have thought this statement out more carefully dude. you clearly don't ride 18L's. There are all sorts of Vids available of people riding 18Ls and XLs in all manner of conditions; snow, ice, dirt trails, and paved roads that easily refute this surprising statement from a wheel erudite such as yourself. 

One of use needs to think it through - and it is not me.  Maybe you refer to KingSongs marketing materials for their intended use.   Then do the same with the Gotway MSX.  Similar statement for the Ninebot z - in the latter two sets of material you will find official videos of them being offload as it is there design point, and marketing wanted to call attention to it with official demonstration videos.

No such official videos or materials exist from the manufacture for KingSong for hybrid use.

If hybrid/offroad is an intended market, one the KS18L was designed for, why then is was it omitted from the official marketing materials?  I'll answer that for you to save you making something up and redirecting again.   The answer is KS never intended for those environments to be targets since it wasn't designed to be hybrid. Therefore no marketing materials needed.  But I suspect you knew that, and are just arguing to argue or such.

To your point about people doing it anyway, well yes people use things for purposes other than their intended target all the time.  Sooner or later they generally also pay a price for such repurposing.   Just because someone can ride an EUC on a freeway and make a video does not mean the EUC is targeted at highway driving.    My point stands because we are not having a discussion of what can it be done, but rather what the design point is.

 

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

You may realize by now that you have managed to earn a very special category in my mind as well 

I sure hope so.  

But more than that I hope two additional things.  First that ideally I've placed a bit of knowledge and even some concepts in your head that clearly were not there before.

And second, and this is what motivates me here, I hope I've stopped the dissemination of false information and bad opinions from being perceived as accurate sources of facts by those who may be doing research simply because they appear in this forum stated by a long term member such as yourself.   It would would be a shame if anyone made decisions based off of the things you offered up prior to being corrected.

I'll sign off with that, because this has clearly gone as far as it can go (and that became clear when you failed to address any of the topics and started your redirections earlier in the cycle, but as you have probably realized by now, I tend to follow through all the way on things and see them to completion).

Happy Wheeling.

 

[stephen]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I keep telling people that my Z10 is always nearest to the door when I go for a ride

Mines next to the door too😊 the way it handles, the way it turns is so smooth it's a joy to ride i love it , i can't wait for the summer months to get on the dry trails and have a blast 😊 

I'm Really glad i purchased the z10,  25-30 miles range has impressed me also , overall I'm very happy and the looks and build is spot on 

[Mike Sacristan]

@Lutalo and @Mike Paolini very good arguments and discussion. This was quite an entertaining read which turned into a rather scientific argument but also a semantic one.

If this was me in the discussion I would have spent half the night awake with anxiety. I hope you guys are ok!  

In the end what are we discussing here?
We started discussing whether the Nikola is attractive enough to warrant purchasing despite already owning a wheel and then disqualifying it because it isn't bringing anything new to the EUC world. Are we defending our current purchase? What if we didn't own an electric unicycle? The Nikola just presents another option and replaces the ACM.

If we look at it from the point of view from Gotway:

A 16" wheel with a 17" fat 3" tire.
A digital voltage display.
Bluetooth speakers.
What seems to be mudflap functionality built in to the design.
An announced speed of 50km/h.
A headlight that adjusts intensity with speed.
A wacky handle and trolley.
The weight and dimensions of an 18" wheel.
A shell design more reminiscent of other brands with Gotway insides and we have yet to see what the programming is like.

Now all we have to do is merge OneWheel firmware into electric unicycles.

 

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Wow I get stuck after writing a few lines on my opinions as they are short and sweet 

Lutalo I like your writing style some times goes on a bit too long,  but nice wording and flow ✍️😎

 

 

 

Thank you. Now I'm blushing 

[Lutalo]

6 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Wow I get stuck after writing a few lines on my opinions as they are short and sweet 

Lutalo I like your writing style some times goes on a bit too long,  but nice wording and flow ✍️😎

 

 

 

Thank you. Now I'm blushing 

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

@Lutalo

lmao.  I'm not a young man at all.  I'm a cranky old geezer with an allergy to bullshit and bullshiters and I'm afraid I fail to recognize the authority and age assumed condensation you are assuming for yourself here as anything other than redirection from topics at hand.

It was a pre-emptive attempt to stop you reading it wrong - because as most people realize, writings do not convey tone well.   That in spite of your aggressive tone which you took and I  almost commented on before removing in an effort to tone it down some.

At the time I meant it.  That is it was an honest try to say hey don't read this too harshly as it was not intended that way.

However given the ongoing dialog, I've come to the twin realizations that a)  I'm okay with offending you, and b) that it is highly likely you were going to take offense at anything, no matter the tone or presentation anyway  -  because the act of taking offense is itself a redirection from the realization you were spout things publicly that were easy show to be incorrect in the first place.  And rather than recanting after being shown the facts and errors, you double down trying to redirect it with "time out", "Young man", and "hypocrisy" and other devices hoping reader will be distracted from the your previous errors and failure to acknowledge them.  Probably works a lot of the time too... but not this time.
 

So I'm going to do 2 things here.  First let me once again educate you here on quotations marks, then I'm going to call you on your bs here.

  https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks-around-a-single-word/  
------------

Quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term. 

He said he was “working”; it looked to me like he was procrastinating.
----------

I did not agree with your use of the term innovation being used for the act of copying so I used standard grammar construct of quotes to convey that.

Now on to calling your BS.  Let me refer to your opening section where  you used my own word blunt in quotes (also reproduced above in my opening here).  I'm pleased to say it was a proper use of the quotes, fitting in with the grammar reference above because you made it clear you did not think it was blunt at all but rather something else.   However this does beg the question, if you knew what the quotes mean and how to use them as a grammar device, why go down the path you did pretending you did not?  More redirection?  Seems you'll try anything to change direction and topic.   Thats a bad habit you have there, and it also speaks to your character which up to now I've omitted commenting on.

 

One of use needs to think it through - and it is not me.  Maybe you refer to KingSongs marketing materials for their intended use.   Then do the same with the Gotway MSX.  Similar statement for the Ninebot z - in the latter two sets of material you will find official videos of them being offload as it is there design point, and marketing wanted to call attention to it with official demonstration videos.

No such official videos or materials exist from the manufacture for KingSong for hybrid use.

If hybrid/offroad is an intended market, one the KS18L was designed for, why then is was it omitted from the official marketing materials?  I'll answer that for you to save you making something up and redirecting again.   The answer is KS never intended for those environments to be targets since it wasn't designed to be hybrid. Therefore no marketing materials needed.  But I suspect you knew that, and are just arguing to argue or such.

To your point about people doing it anyway, well yes people use things for purposes other than their intended target all the time.  Sooner or later they generally also pay a price for such repurposing.   Just because someone can ride an EUC on a freeway and make a video does not mean the EUC is targeted at highway driving.    My point stands because we are not having a discussion of what can it be done, but rather what the design point is.

 

I sure hope so.  

But more than that I hope two additional things.  First that ideally I've placed a bit of knowledge and even some concepts in your head that clearly were not there before.

And second, and this is what motivates me here, I hope I've stopped the dissemination of false information and bad opinions from being perceived as accurate sources of facts by those who may be doing research simply because they appear in this forum stated by a long term member such as yourself.   It would would be a shame if anyone made decisions based off of the things you offered up prior to being corrected.

I'll sign off with that, because this has clearly gone as far as it can go (and that became clear when you failed to address any of the topics and started your redirections earlier in the cycle, but as you have probably realized by now, I tend to follow through all the way on things and see them to completion).

Happy Wheeling.

 

Yeah, dude. Enjoy your wheel/s. I gotta catch this phone call 

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm getting afraid watching you two guys talk   I hope it doesn't come to blows 

Marty. You know how I do. I just

[ED209]

@Lutalo & @Mike Paolini, both of you raised some really good points! Let's call a truce! 🤗