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KS 16S as a commuter machine

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Very nice write-up, very nice range, and very nice choice of next wheel:thumbup: Usually I'm strictly against spending any substantial time for commuting if it can be avoided by any means, but in this case, I'm almost envious;)  One hour each way? More?

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I think the MSX was a great choice.  My only complaint is the slow communication with the app. ( mileage )

The KS16s is a little hyper compared to the MSX.  You are going to think the MSX lacks acceleration.  It doesn't. You just have to lean harder to make it go. Also, don't make the mistake of going fast into a curve and giving it a little KS16s lean to make it turn.  At high speeds the added centripetal force requires a heavier lean.  It will take a few days to fully appreciate. 

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@meepmeepmayerThanks a lot :) With the city traffic and all the pedestrians, the 20 miles can be covered in about one hour and half. I hope I can improve that with the MSX; but not by a great margin I suppose, as it is my intention to keep my 31km/h speed limit. EUCs are illegal in the UK, so riding sensibly is a must. @RockyTopThanks a lot for those tips :) What do you mean by slow communication with the Gotway app? The KS app is a bit limited for sure, but I mostly use it to check the battery levels. Not sure if I'll really need the Gotway app very often, given the wheel's huge battery capacity :thumbup:.

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Everything but the mileage works fine. For some reason all of the mileage information is slow to report. If you turn the app on to check your mileage you will likely not be able to see it. You have to ride for a few minutes for it to show up. Also the total mileage might not work for days. Some times it reverts back to 19 km when you know you have over 900 km on the wheel. Then all of a sudden the mileage is correct again. One  time it reset to 0 km and I got 200 km on it before it later corrected to 600km. I was surprised because it was within 2 km of what I had predicted it should be.

It is still by far my favorite wheel. I love my KS16s but the MSX is a much more enjoyable commuter in my opinion. It is smooth and stable. Pot holes that swallowed my KS16s are just little bumps on the MSX. 

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18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

3 hour commute... well, I guess on a EUC that's not a bad thing:D

About apps, use Wheellog, it's much better (and faster, connects instantly) than the crappy Gotway apps. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cooper.wheellog

For iOS, Darknessbot seems to be great.

Cool, thanks guys for all that info ;) I hope the msx will be a good cruiser so that the ks16s can relax a bit

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Sorry to hear you chose the MSX and not the 18L or 18XL.  I have the MSX for a while now and still cannot like it over the KS 18”.  It rides funny and takes a lot more effort to go fast and stable.  The pedals are extremely angled.  If you didn’t like the handle on the KS, you will hate it on the MSX.  It is in the wrong position and it will break on you when you fall.  A few guys have taken a fall on their MSX and the trolley handle breaks. It is also hard to take out and push back in.  

Everytime I ride the MSX, I wonder why anyone would like it over the KS18L.  The 18L handles sooo much better.  It is easy to ride, maneuver, easy to recover from bumps, super stable at high speeds.  I’m giving the MSX until spring, then if it still sucks and I cannot like it over the 18L/S, I will sell it.  The 18L doesn’t have the box design that puts pressure on your calf or leg.  You shouldn’t have to adjust to a wheel.  Adjusting just means it is designed wrong,  My opinion.  You don’t get the adjustment period with the 18L, no sore contact points on the leg.   Only thing good about the MSX is that it has a seat.  But the 18S has a seat that is higher than the Monster.  It is really comfortable on the 18S.  The MSX is a little short and uncomfortable, but it is better than nothing,

i think people who choose the MSX either never rode the 18L or they are looking for the extra 4-5mph top speed to their eventual detriment.  

‘My comparison is the MSX is a Corvette and the 18L is a Audi R8.  The R8 makes anyone a better driver.  it rotates around corners because it is a mid engine and very forgiving.  If you try the same thing in a corvette, you will surely die.  It takes little effort to drive well and feels so good.  It is a super car you can live with as a daily driver.  But then again, there are people who prefer the corvette.  Haven’t a clue why.

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1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Sorry to hear you chose the MSX and not the 18L or 18XL.  I have the MSX for a while now and still cannot like it over the KS 18”.  It rides funny and takes a lot more effort to go fast and stable.  The pedals are extremely angled.  If you didn’t like the handle on the KS, you will hate it on the MSX.  It is in the wrong position and it will break on you when you fall.  A few guys have taken a fall on their MSX and the trolley handle breaks. It is also hard to take out and push back in.  

Everytime I ride the MSX, I wonder why anyone would like it over the KS18L.  The 18L handles sooo much better.  It is easy to ride, maneuver, easy to recover from bumps, super stable at high speeds.  I’m giving the MSX until spring, then if it still sucks and I cannot like it over the 18L/S, I will sell it.  The 18L doesn’t have the box design that puts pressure on your calf or leg.  You shouldn’t have to adjust to a wheel.  Adjusting just means it is designed wrong,  My opinion.  You don’t get the adjustment period with the 18L, no sore contact points on the leg.   Only thing good about the MSX is that it has a seat.  But the 18S has a seat that is higher than the Monster.  It is really comfortable on the 18S.  The MSX is a little short and uncomfortable, but it is better than nothing,

i think people who choose the MSX either never rode the 18L or they are looking for the extra 4-5mph top speed to their eventual detriment.  

‘My comparison is the MSX is a Corvette and the 18L is a Audi R8.  The R8 makes anyone a better driver.  it rotates around corners because it is a mid engine and very forgiving.  If you try the same thing in a corvette, you will surely die.  It takes little effort to drive well and feels so good.  It is a super car you can live with as a daily driver.  But then again, there are people who prefer the corvette.  Haven’t a clue why.

I will be eagerly awaiting your used MXS for sale post. :D I have always been more of a Corvette guy myself. :eff034a94a:  

Edited by RockyTop

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2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Everytime I ride the MSX, I wonder why anyone would like it over the KS18L.

It is true, not all of us have the luxury of buying three or four wheels at a time...

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7 hours ago, Hermes said:

It is true, not all of us have the luxury of buying three or four wheels at a time...

If there are group rides around you, then you can try them out.  We have lots of demo rides out here in NYC.  It gives people a chance to try the wheels before they buy.  I recognize that these are rare and not available in all locations.

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Here is T's review of the KS18XL.  He doesn't normally ride King Song.  I'm telling you if you get to ride the KS18XL, it just feels like an extension of you and very effortless.  How a EUC should be made.  Good that he finally got to ride it and has the same impression that I do.  The relief when coming from Gotway.  LOL.  There is another in our group who has both the MSX and 18XL, he has the same impression as well.  the 18XL is just that much easier to ride.  

 

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@eddiemoy I believe you and appreciate your love of the finer qualities. I think it comes down to the different riding styles. “Force vs Finesse” I respect people like my brother that can ride the wave with grace and style letting the wave do all the work. I prefer to make my own waves even though it takes more work. ( Although I am sure it will come back to bite me when I get older) 

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1 minute ago, RockyTop said:

@eddiemoy I believe you and appreciate your love of the finer qualities. I think it comes down to the different riding styles. “Force vs Finesse” I respect people like my brother that can ride the wave with grace and style letting the wave do all the work. I prefer to make my own waves even though it takes more work. ( Although I am sure it will come back to bite me when I get older) 

the extra work you are putting in to make the wheel ride well will also be there when you are trying to recover from hitting something.  i.e. extreme example is the Z10 which can become unsettle rather easily and go into something similar to what you experience in high side crashes which is a high speed wobble, impossible to fight when it comes on.  The MSX exhibit this behavior as well but not to the extreme of the Z10.  I've been able to recover from some things I didn't think was possible on the 18L.  It doesn't get unsettled easily.  

Same thing happens when you go into a corner wrong in the corvette, you die.  But on the other hand, if you go into the corner wrong in the R8, it will forgive and you can come out of it without incident. 

anyway, i think i've given enough examples and those who have both seem to prefer the 18XL.  

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35 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Here is T's review of the KS18XL.  He doesn't normally ride King Song.  I'm telling you if you get to ride the KS18XL, it just feels like an extension of you and very effortless.  How a EUC should be made.  Good that he finally got to ride it and has the same impression that I do.  The relief when coming from Gotway.  LOL.  There is another in our group who has both the MSX and 18XL, he has the same impression as well.  the 18XL is just that much easier to ride.  

 

That was an intriguing review, given that T is a Gotway guy mostly. I chose the msx for the slightly larger/wider tire and bigger battery. The roads here in Gothenburg are pure murder, and the politicians are more concerned building a prestige showboat railway tunnel under the whole city (hello Boston Big Dig), than actually fixing the existing problems.

The 18XL came out right as I had already ordered my EUC, I had looked at the 18L but judged that the battery was a tad too small. Isn't it typical? Whenever I feel like I can in good conscience spend another $2K, another year will have gone by and there will be yet another generation of wheels to make you say oh and ah!

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11 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

That was an intriguing review, given that T is a Gotway guy mostly. I chose the msx for the slightly larger/wider tire and bigger battery. The roads here in Gothenburg are pure murder, and the politicians are more concerned building a prestige showboat railway tunnel under the whole city (hello Boston Big Dig), than actually fixing the existing problems.

The 18XL came out right as I had already ordered my EUC, I had looked at the 18L but judged that the battery was a tad too small. Isn't it typical? Whenever I feel like I can in good conscience spend another $2K, another year will have gone by and there will be yet another generation of wheels to make you say oh and ah!

For me the 18L battery is fine for my use, 15 miles before 50% throttling.  I use it mainly for short local rides.  I use the 1680Wh 18S for longer rides because of the seat.  I don't ride offroad or in muddy conditions.  But in looking at the wheel, i don't know it makes that much of a difference, 3" vs 2.5".

The 18XL actually advertise the correct Wh, 1554wh.  The MSX advertise the wrong one, 1600wh, actual is same as 18XL, 1554.

With T, it seems like it is what I imagined.  Those who don't get to try both, don't know how good the 18L/XL is.  How can you?  He's never tried a KS.  Everytime I get on the MSX, I wonder how anyone can like it.  When I get on my 18L/S, I go Aaaaah!, this is how EUC's should be made.

 

Edited by eddiemoy

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25 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

 

Same thing happens when you go into a corner wrong in the corvette, you die.  But on the other hand, if you go into the corner wrong in the R8, it will forgive and you can come out of it without incident. 

Force vs Finesse. 

I race dirt track (and 1/4 mile drag). Neither one of them are Corvettes but I can drive a Corvette on asphalt like I drive my dirt car on dirt. I can’t control a car unless the tires are spinning. It is a completely different type of driving. I fully understand your discomfort because what you prefer scares me. ( My biggest fear is a car that pushes in the corner and can’t brake the rear wheel traction to correct ) I can’t drive a car fast without a clutch pedal because it does half the steering.  

You don’t like certain feedback on your wheels. The same feedback and responses don’t bother everyone the same. I know I get a wobble every now any then but I don’t even notice it unless someone points it out. You seem to be more comfortable with a neutral balance. I like to be away from neutral because it gives ME better feedback. 

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5 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Force vs Finesse. 

I race dirt track (and 1/4 mile drag). Neither one of them are Corvettes but I can drive a Corvette on asphalt like I drive my dirt car on dirt. I can’t control a car unless the tires are spinning. It is a completely different type of driving. I fully understand your discomfort because what you prefer scares me. ( My biggest fear is a car that pushes in the corner and can’t brake the rear wheel traction to correct ) I can’t drive a car fast without a clutch pedal because it does half the steering.  

You don’t like certain feedback on your wheels. The same feedback and responses don’t bother everyone the same. I know I get a wobble every now any then but I don’t even notice it unless someone points it out. You seem to be more comfortable with a neutral balance. I like to be away from neutral because it gives ME better feedback. 

I've done four wheel drifting and just powering through corners and swinging the tail out with modulating the accelerator.  I can do that on command in my RWD Tesla Model S P85+.  You are right, I prefer cars I can control and if I slip up still be able to recover same as for my preference of EUC.  I also like cars with clutch, been driving manual for most of my life, commuted into NYC for 10 years.  Talk about punishment.  LOL.  Now a days I prefer lazy.  I don't mind taking a manual car out for a day or two every now and then, but certainly not to live with it.  Those days are over for me.  But it could be different for you.

Neutral balance still gives you plenty of feedback, i would argue it is a matter of opinion if it is better or not.  neutral cars just require less effort to drive well. Just watch randy pobst drive different performance cars around willow springs and those that are neutral, he is still able to talk, those that are wild he can barely talk, taking lots more effort.

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6 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I've done four wheel drifting and just powering through corners and swinging the tail out with modulating the accelerator.  I can do that on command in my RWD Tesla Model S P85+.  You are right, I prefer cars I can control and if I slip up still be able to recover same as for my preference of EUC.  I also like cars with clutch, been driving manual for most of my life, commuted into NYC for 10 years.  Talk about punishment.  LOL.  Now a days I prefer lazy.  I don't mind taking a manual car out for a day or two every now and then, but certainly not to live with it.  Those days are over for me.  But it could be different for you.

Neutral balance still gives you plenty of feedback, i would argue it is a matter of opinion if it is better or not.  neutral cars just require less effort to drive well. Just watch randy pobst drive different performance cars around willow springs and those that are neutral, he is still able to talk, those that are wild he can barely talk, taking lots more effort.

I agree! :D  

I have more fun pushing myself than pushing the limits of the car.  (Neutral is better long distace races) 

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4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

For me the 18L battery is fine for my use, 15 miles before 50% throttling.  I use it mainly for short local rides.  I use the 1680Wh 18S for longer rides because of the seat.  I don't ride offroad or in muddy conditions.  But in looking at the wheel, i don't know it makes that much of a difference, 3" vs 2.5".

The 18XL actually advertise the correct Wh, 1554wh.  The MSX advertise the wrong one, 1600wh, actual is same as 18XL, 1554.

With T, it seems like it is what I imagined.  Those who don't get to try both, don't know how good the 18L/XL is.  How can you?  He's never tried a KS.  Everytime I get on the MSX, I wonder how anyone can like it.  When I get on my 18L/S, I go Aaaaah!, this is how EUC's should be made.

 

Well I have not had the benafit to try that many different wheels or brands.  As my signature show what I own. I have posted review will updates on my KS18L. 

It suits me just fine range wise. As for the KS18XL it might feel the same, but...a heavy wheel have benefits and downsides. On the plus side it build up your body to handle the wheel but it is also not as easy to move/lift up stairs/shelves/trunk. Due to this I am not sure if I would choose KS18XL over KS18L. A few kg might not show as much on paper but lifting to 4th floor it does make a difference...to me.

Ok so back to thread model. I would choose the KS18L still. It has to safety feeling and I prefer to cruise. I can only say it seems perfect to me. I only wish you had some sort of utility mou ts for cams/extra lights. Some sort of mount that can break off without damaging shell/structure. At moment I am looking a 3m duallock but I don't know if it works or not. I hope this help someone to choose. 

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The ks 16s has served me very very well, and honnestly the 18xl is the logical upgrade, specially for my use case. I suppose rationality died the moment I envisaged riding an EUC :D

That said, when time comes for me to have my third wheel -- yes, I confirm, euc riding is addictive --, I hope that the pesky niggles ( the trolleys, afterthought mudguards, lights brightness, desintegrating pads, etc ... ) will become things of the past, at least with the big brands. Currently, even though I wholeheartedly recommend using EUCs for commuting, especially the ks 16s, on very few occasions the frustration level can be so high :(.

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4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

For me the 18L battery is fine for my use, 15 miles before 50% throttling.  I use it mainly for short local rides.  I use the 1680Wh 18S for longer rides because of the seat.  I don't ride offroad or in muddy conditions.  But in looking at the wheel, i don't know it makes that much of a difference, 3" vs 2.5".

The 18XL actually advertise the correct Wh, 1554wh.  The MSX advertise the wrong one, 1600wh, actual is same as 18XL, 1554.

With T, it seems like it is what I imagined.  Those who don't get to try both, don't know how good the 18L/XL is.  How can you?  He's never tried a KS.  Everytime I get on the MSX, I wonder how anyone can like it.  When I get on my 18L/S, I go Aaaaah!, this is how EUC's should be made.

 

I don't like the way Tishawn swings his arms as if he needs to heave his wheel into the turns. A good wheel is so neautral that mere brain waves without any body motion controls your wheel, and the big Gotway wheels don't like turns.

With very few exceptions the videos of EUC riding are just riding in straight lines with 90% turns, and I think that is a poor review of wheel handling. Chooch is one of the few riders who does curves, and it's illuminating to see he totally hangs off his MSupers because the wheel tries to stay upright.

Why do Gotways not like turns? Bad tire profile, odd battery placement, maybe software related?

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18 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Sorry to hear you chose the MSX and not the 18L or 18XL.  I have the MSX for a while now and still cannot like it over the KS 18”.  It rides funny and takes a lot more effort to go fast and stable.  The pedals are extremely angled.  If you didn’t like the handle on the KS, you will hate it on the MSX.  It is in the wrong position and it will break on you when you fall.  A few guys have taken a fall on their MSX and the trolley handle breaks. It is also hard to take out and push back in.  

Everytime I ride the MSX, I wonder why anyone would like it over the KS18L.  The 18L handles sooo much better.  It is easy to ride, maneuver, easy to recover from bumps, super stable at high speeds.  I’m giving the MSX until spring, then if it still sucks and I cannot like it over the 18L/S, I will sell it.  The 18L doesn’t have the box design that puts pressure on your calf or leg.  You shouldn’t have to adjust to a wheel.  Adjusting just means it is designed wrong,  My opinion.  You don’t get the adjustment period with the 18L, no sore contact points on the leg.   Only thing good about the MSX is that it has a seat.  But the 18S has a seat that is higher than the Monster.  It is really comfortable on the 18S.  The MSX is a little short and uncomfortable, but it is better than nothing,

i think people who choose the MSX either never rode the 18L or they are looking for the extra 4-5mph top speed to their eventual detriment.  

‘My comparison is the MSX is a Corvette and the 18L is a Audi R8.  The R8 makes anyone a better driver.  it rotates around corners because it is a mid engine and very forgiving.  If you try the same thing in a corvette, you will surely die.  It takes little effort to drive well and feels so good.  It is a super car you can live with as a daily driver.  But then again, there are people who prefer the corvette.  Haven’t a clue why.

Actually the KS 18XL was first on my shortlist, msx second. Only circumstances  -- where can one buy the 18xl, at a chinese price, but with minimal confidence? -- and frustration -- do Kingsong plan to apply the same fix they did on 18(x)l trolleys to the ks 16s ? -- led me to this decision. I will try and post an update on how I find the ride on the msx compared to the 16s :)

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32 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

 

Why do Gotways not like turns? Bad tire profile, odd battery placement, maybe software related?

Heavier wheels ( the weight in the wheel is closer to the tire and less at the axle. This creates more centripetal force) + The shell has more weight further forward and back than some wheels.  ( and lower) 

This extra weight is a nice thing when you get struck by a dog from the side or get off balance for a second. It gives your body the ability to move without upsetting the wheel. This is one reason I like the extra force necessary to affect the wheels movement. 

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