Ninebot z10 creeping forward

[Alex_from_NZ]

Hi everyone, 

I got my z10 the other day and noticed something that seemed strange.

At rest the unit moves forward very slowly by itself. You can hear a slight motor whine while holding it still and feel a very slight pressure for it to move forward.

This is balancing it level, letting go it does the same thing so I know it's not how I'm holding it or anything. 

It's not the ground level either as it will do it in any direction on the same bit of floor. 

The pedals are level according to my spirit level, no angle there. 

I also notice in the app one battery is constantly discharging a little amount, I'm guessing this is resulting in the creeping I'm noticing. The other battery is no discharge at all during this. 

I just wanted to check with everyone else if this is normal or not as this is my first wheel.

See potato video below, and some screenshots. 

 

[Nic]

Just a guess, but try fitting the trolley handle and mudguard to see if this still happens ... it could be due to more weight at front of wheel. Maybe calibrating the pedals could also fix it. I'm no expert, but that's where I'd start looking.

[Mono]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:37 AM, Nic said:

Just a guess, but try fitting the trolley handle and mudguard to see if this still happens ... it could be due to more weight at front of wheel. Maybe calibrating the pedals could also fix it. I'm no expert, but that's where I'd start looking.

Agreed, an expert couldn't have nailed it better AFAICS. It looks like an inevitable behavior for a wheel with asymmetric weight distribution. Adding the right amount of weight to the back of the wheel will let it rest instead of slowly moving forward.

[meepmeepmayer]

Yep, this doesn't seem to be a problem, just the consequence of an uneven weight distribution.

[Alex_from_NZ]

I very much doubt the weight of the handle or mudguard will have any effect on this but I will install today to test. 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

6 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

I very much doubt the weight of the handle or mudguard will have any effect on this but I will install today to test. 

Based on the few Z10 that I have been exposed to, the mudguard / trolley handle makes no difference - and, FWIW, I have not experienced any "creep" in either direction, with or without the accessories attached...

Have you tried that calibration yet? It may make a difference...

[Alex_from_NZ]

19 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Based on the few Z10 that I have been exposed to, the mudguard / trolley handle makes no difference - and, FWIW, I have not experienced any "creep" in either direction, with or without the accessories attached...

Have you tried that calibration yet? It may make a difference...

Thanks, i was waiting for someone with experiance with this wheel to chime in.  I have not yet installed the mudguard or handle to test, but i dont feel like it has enough weight to make the difference.  The creep is not slow...

Yeah, did the calibration thing but no difference at all.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

4 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

Thanks, i was waiting for someone with experiance with this wheel to chime in.  I have not yet installed the mudguard or handle to test, but i dont feel like it has enough weight to make the difference.  The creep is not slow...

Yeah, did the calibration thing but no difference at all.

This may sound a bit off (for those that know the situation at least), but there is no other way to say it... You need to check back with your supplier and get their input on the matter.

But let me know if they aren't too interested and I will see if I can get an "official Segway" view on the scenario.

[Alex_from_NZ]

1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

This may sound a bit off (for those that know the situation at least), but there is no other way to say it... You need to check back with your supplier and get their input on the matter.

But let me know if they aren't too interested and I will see if I can get an "official Segway" view on the scenario.

Im off work to go get a scan on my knee tomorrow, so will likely try install the mudguard and handle just to see if there is any difference like some have said.  I hope this is all it is but i have my doubts..

Would be great if someone who owned the wheel could chime in.. Has anyone got their wheel without the mudguard and handle installed noticed this?  It is rather noticeable.. ie, lean it against something and it will try creep forward or end up rocking back and forth..

I hope im not breaking etiquette here, but im going to tag some people i know who own this wheel into this to see if they can lend their experienced viewpoints.

@Marty Backe @houseofjob @Lukasz @fbhb (i know we discussed it previously) @RoberAce @novazeus 

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

Im off work to go get a scan on my knee tomorrow, so will likely try install the mudguard and handle just to see if there is any difference like some have said.  I hope this is all it is but i have my doubts..

Would be great if someone who owned the wheel could chime in.. Has anyone got their wheel without the mudguard and handle installed noticed this?  It is rather noticeable.. ie, lean it against something and it will try creep forward or end up rocking back and forth..

I hope im not breaking etiquette here, but im going to tag some people i know who own this wheel into this to see if they can lend their experienced viewpoints.

@Marty Backe @houseofjob @Lukasz @fbhb (i know we discussed it previously) @RoberAce @novazeus 

That's a rather large amount of creep. I ride with the handle and mudguard installed, but I never noticed anything like that before or after.

Whether the wheel is balanced or not, it shouldn't make a difference. My Monster (2400wh version) has an extra 800wh battery in the rear of the shell. When the Monster is off it'll fall backwards because of this weight imbalance - a well known trait of the Monster. Yet once you turn it one, the wheel balances perfectly and doesn't move. I would expect similar behaviors with all wheels.

That all being said, I notice that you are doing this on a super smooth concrete floor. Maybe all wheels will creep a little under 'perfect' conditions. If you've calibrated the wheel multiple times and the behavior hasn't changed, then that's the behavior. I wouldn't worry about it.

For kicks, I'll test mine a little tomorrow under 'perfect' conditions.

This is your first and only wheel, right? Or am I misremembering?

[Alex_from_NZ]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

That's a rather large amount of creep. I ride with the handle and mudguard installed, but I never noticed anything like that before or after.

Whether the wheel is balanced or not, it shouldn't make a difference. My Monster (2400wh version) has an extra 800wh battery in the rear of the shell. When the Monster is off it'll fall backwards because of this weight imbalance - a well known trait of the Monster. Yet once you turn it one, the wheel balances perfectly and doesn't move. I would expect similar behaviors with all wheels.

That all being said, I notice that you are doing this on a super smooth concrete floor. Maybe all wheels will creep a little under 'perfect' conditions. If you've calibrated the wheel multiple times and the behavior hasn't changed, then that's the behavior. I wouldn't worry about it.

For kicks, I'll test mine a little tomorrow under 'perfect' conditions.

This is your first and only wheel, right? Or am I misremembering?

Thanks for the reply  

Yeah, it is my first wheel, so perhaps i'm just being cautious...   

I do notice it on not super smooth surfaces as well.  Carpet, the AstroTurf (Cricket Pitch) i was practising on etc. It was enough that i needed to put a bit of heel pressure to keep it from moving when i was trying to stand still with one leg.  

It is certainly liveable i am sure, the main annoyance is when trying to lean it or balance it on something when it is on and it trying to run off (exaggeration.. it tries to hurt itself/fall over really )

[fbhb]

Just to confirm our previous discussion about this creeping, when I tested mine for you the other day I don't think I mentioned this but I do not have the trolley, mudguard or rubber protectors fitted.

So from my experience, having those items  fitted will not make any difference to your issue, my Z10 as previously mentioned Does Not behave like your video/description. It will not move forward unless the ground slopes downward or obviously when pressure is applied to the front of the pedals/front of the wheel!

As @The Fat Unicyclist has mentioned to you above, if you are this concerned about it (and you should be, it being less than a week old) you need to reach out to the supplier.

[Alex_from_NZ]

6 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Just to confirm our previous discussion about this creeping, when I tested mine for you the other day I don't think I mentioned this but I do not have the trolley, mudguard or rubber protectors fitted.

So from my experience, having those items will not make any difference to your issue, my Z10 as previously mentioned Does Not behave like your video/description. It will not move forward unless the ground slopes downward or obviously when pressure is applied to the front of the pedals/front of the wheel!

As @The Fat Unicyclist has mentioned to you above, if you are this concerned about it (and you should be, it being less than a week old) you need to reach out to the supplier.

Thanks mate.  I wasn't sure from our convo if you had the items installed when you talked about yours, and honestly at that point i felt i hadn't really given it a chance yet on different surfaces so was still chalking it up to me being paro.. 

Next question.. who wants to guess what the reaction is when i take the unit back on crutches??    (for reference, the supplier (very unfortunately) was not TFU in this case but a large bicycle chain who has gotten into PEVs.  This was the first EUC this store had ever sold...  and i am also actually on crutches now )

edit. I will do some more testing before i actually take it back.  Just to make sure im not still being paro.

[Mono]

I have had this kind of creeping behavior already on a different wheel. To my experience it does not make a difference for riding the wheel or riding safety. For a new wheel it could be considered a defect that the seller should fix or tell you how to fix it. Though I am not sure I see how it could be fixed other than by changing the tilt angle or adding/removing weight. AFAICS, this is what one needs to expect on a frictionless wheel to happen. I think there is something I don't quite understand 

EDIT: OK, I didn't have in mind that the contact patch is of course not only a single point but a small area. Then even with some tolerances the wheel indeed can  rest stable.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

How would one wheel creep and another of the same model not? They're built the same after all, with the same weight distribution.

Maybe there are specific weight biases at certain pedal angles, but if the pedals are horizontal on two wheels, how could they even have different behavior?

I'd be surprised if this is anything but a consequence of the asymmetrical design, but maybe Marty's test will shine some light on this question.

[houseofjob]

I have everything installed on my Z10, and no significant creep here.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

That's a rather large amount of creep. I ride with the handle and mudguard installed, but I never noticed anything like that before or after.

Whether the wheel is balanced or not, it shouldn't make a difference. My Monster (2400wh version) has an extra 800wh battery in the rear of the shell. When the Monster is off it'll fall backwards because of this weight imbalance - a well known trait of the Monster. Yet once you turn it one, the wheel balances perfectly and doesn't move. I would expect similar behaviors with all wheels.

That all being said, I notice that you are doing this on a super smooth concrete floor. Maybe all wheels will creep a little under 'perfect' conditions. If you've calibrated the wheel multiple times and the behavior hasn't changed, then that's the behavior. I wouldn't worry about it.

For kicks, I'll test mine a little tomorrow under 'perfect' conditions.

This is your first and only wheel, right? Or am I misremembering?

I just checked a few of my wheels. My Z10 has essentially no creep although I can initiate a little if I'm not careful when releasing the handle.

My Monster (with the asymmetrical batteries) starts racing backwards when I let go of the handle   My Mten3, with my hacked trolley handle installed, also flies backwards.

So yes, if the wheels aren't balanced, they will move by themselves. However, my little experiment also highlights that this has zero affect on the ride quality of the wheel, so much so that I had forgotten that my wheels have creep. I wouldn't worry about it.

[LanghamP]

Hmm, all my wheels have creep to a certain extent, but my MSuper is pretty bad at going backwards. My V5 goes forward, my KS14c goes backwards.

My Segway S1 is perfectly balanced. 

I would guess that without exception you want all wheels to creep backwards in case you get a runaway wheel, otherwise the forward creeping wheel would continue accelerating until it reached an equilibrium (tiltback?, wind resistance, toddler).

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

the forward creeping wheel would continue accelerating until it reached an equilibrium (tiltback?, wind resistance, toddler)

 if I am not mistaken keeping a certain (low) speed up is already an equilibrium even without wind resistance, so fortunately no toddler needed...

[Mono]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How would one wheel creep and another of the same model not? They're built the same after all, with the same weight distribution.

Indeed. I'd really like to know.

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

Indeed. I'd really like to know.

I don't think we can assume that they are all built the same. These come from China, not Germany 

I've seen enough shoddy workmanship in the various wheels that it wouldn't surprise me if there's a missing part of plastic or the worker dropped a piece of their lunch in the wheel 

[Mono]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't think we can assume that they are all built the same. These come from China, not Germany 

I've seen enough shoddy workmanship in the various wheels that it wouldn't surprise me if there's a missing part of plastic or the worker dropped a piece of their lunch in the wheel 

I know, I know, I didn't want to say that in front of @Alex_from_NZ though 

[meepmeepmayer]

In the future after the apocalypse, when they try to find out how a nest of genetically manipulated, escaped from a lab Chinese brain-parasitic electric Supercockroaches made its way to NZ, this thread is where they'll end up

@Alex_from_NZ might already be zombified for all we know! 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Hey @Alex_from_NZ

I don't know if you are aware, but @fbhb's Z10 if from the same batch as yours, as is another one that I have checked here in Wellington.

FWIW - the one here doesn't creep at all, with or without the trolley and mudguard attached...

Do let us know if you decide to take action about this (and the outcome too).

[FreeRide]

i would try calibrating it slightly back to see if that compensates.  If so sensor inside is probably misaligned.