GT16 Top Speed Test - Fall at 51km/h without protection

[Darrell Wesh]

On 11/30/2018 at 1:55 AM, maxkan said:

I disagree. Such videos MUST be posted. Some EUCs CAN go that fast. And not everyone (almost no one?) is able to constantly maintain control on that speed. People must be warned.

He had a cut out. Wheel nose dived/ lost balance. He claims HE lost balance but he lost balance because he reached the limits of the wheel causing it to stop self balancing in the sagittal plane. He was always in control, but the wheel gave out on him. 

Plenty of people can control speeds at 50km/h. People can control 60km/h too. 

Don’t let videos like this scare you. How many people drive cars but see horrific traffic accidents on YouTube?

[Chriull]

55 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

He had a cut out. Wheel nose dived/ lost balance. He claims HE lost balance but he lost balance because he reached the limits of the wheel causing it to stop self balancing in the sagittal plane. He was always in control, but the wheel gave out on him.

Yes - but this is not the "wheels fault" (bad design). It was not a random cut off but just reaching the machines limit == overlean. Manufacturers could implement accurate warnings in firmware or at least describe the limits/physics of EUC driving in the manuals. So its unfortionately an operators error (being not informed, which could of course be blamed on the manufacturer).

55 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Plenty of people can control speeds at 50km/h. People can control 60km/h too. 

Only as long as nothing unforseen happens - in very controlled enviroments or just with some good luck. For the actual "high performance" wheels with such speeds the torque margins are minimal and every riders imbalance, road uneveness or wind gust can lead to an overlean.

No driver can control these speeds evety time in outside real world conditions!

55 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Don’t let videos like this scare you

One should at least get respect and learn from this. Driving such speeds regularly in non controlled enviroments (surface/battery condition, wind gusts, etc) will inevitably lead to an accident sooner or later.

For more details one can read 

and 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

1 minute ago, Chriull said:

Only as long as nothing unforseen happens - in very controlled enviroments or just with some good luck. For the actual "high performance" wheels with such speeds the torque margins are minimal and every riders imbalance, road uneveness or wind gust can lead to an overlean.

One should at least get respect and learn from this. Driving such speeds regularly in non controlled enviroments (surface/battery condition, wind gusts, etc) will inevitably lead to an accident sooner or later.

 

 

That’s ridiculous and ignorant of a concept called “skill”. The chance of an accident are higher the faster you go but that doesn’t mean it’s “inevitable”. 

High performance wheels like Msuper X and KS18L are arguably safer than slower wheels because of the increased power to prevent cutouts during moments of unexpected power surges (leaning forward from a bump, leaning too far during hard acceleration etc) 

 

[Alex_from_NZ]

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s ridiculous and ignorant

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The chance of an accident are higher the faster you go but that doesn’t mean it’s “inevitable”. 

Sure, as long as..

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

nothing unforseen happens

Oh but there that..

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

concept called “skill”.

But skill cant save you from everything, Ask Ayrton Senna or Possum Bourne, .. oh.. cant.   

So skill really i guess means to never put yourself in the situation you cant ultimately control.  And not..

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

Driving such speeds regularly in non controlled enviroments

And only when you..

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

can control speeds at 50km/h.

 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

Sure, as long as..

Oh but there that..

But skill cant save you from everything, Ask Ayrton Senna or Possum Bourne, .. oh.. cant.   

So skill really i guess means to never put yourself in the situation you cant ultimately control.  And not..

And only when you..

 

 

Haha your choice if you want to lead a life of fear; free of risk and the liberty to exercise your thousand + dollar machine to its optimum performance potential. 

It’s akin to a bicyclist who chooses to ride on the sidewalk despite a bike lane being right there for them to use, but they’d rather go slow and avoid pedestrians then risk going faster being on the road and chancing getting hit by cars in the bike lane. 

 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

Skill is not only physical but mental. You could be “one” with your wheel but if you get goosebumps thinking about driving it in the road with other cars then you’ve effectively reduced your physical skill in that situation by magnitudes. 

[Scatcat]

@Darrell Wesh you can talk about skill all you want, but the simple fact is that a self balancing vehicle is dependent on reserve torque. The faster you go, the less of that torque you have in reserve. That is simple physics.

[Chriull]

11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s ridiculous and ignorant of a concept called “skill”. The chance of an accident are higher the faster you go but that doesn’t mean it’s “inevitable”. 

If one goes regularly near lift cut-off speed in "non controlled environments" accidents are inevitable. The only skill needed is information gathering and understanding the underlying physics. The rest is just believe and things start to get at least very strange once people want to spread their believes...

That's of course totally different for competitions - races on known tracks. Besides the knowledge of the limits all the other physical and mental skills will make the difference in approaching the limits. But that has nothing to do with driving on "normal" roads.

11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

High performance wheels like Msuper X and KS18L are arguably safer than slower wheels because of the increased power to prevent cutouts during moments of unexpected power surges (leaning forward from a bump, leaning too far during hard acceleration etc) 

If one stays in the comparable speed range, yes. If one goes near lift-cut-off speed they are arguably unsafer, since the accident will happen at higher speeds. 

[Scatcat]

13 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Untrue. I’ve fallen at 33mph and came out with no damage except a slightly bruised knee. Plenty of people have fallen off at 25+ Mph speeds without breaking things. The important thing is that YOU aren’t stiff. Like the pasta noodle concept: a stiff noodle will just snap upon impact but a loose noodle(muscle) will absorb impact without snapping in two. 

Good CE gear like d30 is designed to protect you at motorcycle speeds. EUC speeds is laughable for level 2 CE armor. You won’t feel a thing. You just have to avoid flailing limbs that stiffen and subsequently snap. Relax in a fall, don’t tense up. 

I've fallen at 20mph and not even gotten a scratch. @Rehab1 did the same and ended up with a need for a bone matter transplant.

I said: "Even with protection, there is nothing. REPEAT nothing on the market, that can brace your arms and shoulders well enough to compensate for a stiff impact."

Note the word "stiff", as the reason I haven't hurt myself is that my impacts were not. There is no guarantee that the next one won't be, it depends on the situation. If for instance I see a curb coming towards my head at high speed, staying loose and relying on the protection or rolling is not something I'd be able to do. I'd rather take a break in my arm to stop stiffly, than allow my head to bounce on the curb. There's actually a technique for that, where you form your hands and elbows into a triangle to spread the impact as much as you can, while stopping as fast as possible. The risk for a break in the arms and shoulders in such a situation goes up dramatically. But the alternative may be crashing into a tree, curb, car or whatever that would just be worse.

[Rehab1]

49 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

I've fallen at 20mph and not even gotten a scratch. @Rehab1 did the same and ended up with a need for a bone matter transplant.

 

Bragger! You clearly win the prize for intelligence.  Riding the ACM with my feet embedded into the spiked ‘pedals from hell’ was clearly idiotic on my part.  

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, Scatcat said:

@Darrell Wesh you can talk about skill all you want, but the simple fact is that a self balancing vehicle is dependent on reserve torque. The faster you go, the less of that torque you have in reserve. That is simple physics.

That’s not my point and not even what I’m arguing about when I refer to skill. 

[wuppi]

6 hours ago, Scatcat said:

I've fallen at 20mph and not even gotten a scratch. @Rehab1 did the same and ended up with a need for a bone matter transplant.

I too have fallen off at high speed with relatively small injuries. It's a funny thing, for some people have to experience cutoffs first-hand to really respect and fear them.

I still ride fast sometimes, but never above 45km/h, which seems to be a safe upper limit for my size. The thrill of speed has really worn off after the accident, I just enjoy the freedom and views while riding now  

 

[Alex_from_NZ]

8 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Skill is not only physical but mental. You could be “one” with your wheel but if you get goosebumps thinking about driving it in the road with other cars then you’ve effectively reduced your physical skill in that situation by magnitudes. 

So you mean...

9 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

to never put yourself in the situation you cant ultimately control

Gotcha... 

We are all pretty much saying the same thing but using different words, and you of everyone are so entrenched in your hard on for argument you cant see it.

Skill (controlled riding) will only take you so far, if you run out of skill (control), your fucked. 

[Darrell Wesh]

33 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

So you mean...

Gotcha... 

We are all pretty much saying the same thing but using different words, and you of everyone are so entrenched in your hard on for argument you cant see it.

Skill (controlled riding) will only take you so far, if you run out of skill (control), your fucked. 

Wow you had to use the black meme for a forum member whose obviously black, I definetly saw that. 

I was never arguing that point of the argument so not sure why you quoted it. 

You can’t suddenly run out of skill, because to have skill means to also know your limitations- that is the mental aspect of it that I’ve tried to drill into your head. You didn’t have the skill to begin with if you can’t handle such and such environment. 

What YOU are referring to is “bad luck”. The most skilled people who happen to have a crash experience this phenemenon.  There is no guard against it. I could be going 5mph and making a turn and slip on a patch of slick leaves and fall. This is separate from skill as all the skill or lack thereof means nothing to “bad luck.” 

I feel as if I’m arguing with someone of a vastly different skill level than myself so it’s pointless when you can’t fathom higher levels of skill that can handle 50km/h on a daily basis in outdoor “uncontrolled” environments. It’s the same concept as outsiders who can’t fathom how we’re staying on these unicycles despite bumps, cracks, wind, etc. 

Your basis that these people will “inevitably” fall is no different than someone saying riding a unicycle will cause you to inevitably fall no matter how skilled you are or slow you go. If you’ve got the appropriate gear on then you’ve prepared for bad luck and that’s as much as you can do. 

 

[Reciodvd]

Todos cometemos errores, equivocaciones e imprudencias

¿vosotros creeis que no se montar?

 

[Alex_from_NZ]

Straight up,  i dont care if i get banned for this response.  Call me racist and im going to call you out on your bullshit.

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Wow you had to use the black meme for a forum member whose obviously black, I definetly saw that. 

Fuck off.  

First up, im not American and dont operate in a world filled with your racial problems over there.  I couldnt give two shits if you were black, white, or some kind of Kardashian, literally never crossed my mind.  I am Maori, the black of my country so pick that lip up off the floor and quit crying wolf you baby.  
 

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You can’t suddenly run out of skill, because to have skill means to also know your limitations

Oh Mr Perfect here never runs out of skill becase you know, skill means to always be in control.  Gee, where does that ring a bell....

12 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

So skill really i guess means to never put yourself in the situation you cant ultimately control.

And this part...

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The most skilled people who happen to have a crash experience this phenemenon.  There is no guard against it. I could be going 5mph and making a turn and slip on a patch of slick leaves and fall. This is separate from skill as all the skill or lack thereof means nothing to “bad luck.”

Sounds awfully similar to the point behind this part...

12 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

But skill cant save you from everything, Ask Ayrton Senna or Possum Bourne, .. oh.. cant.   

Semantics man.. 

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I feel as if I’m arguing with someone of a vastly different skill level than myself

Your not the only one bud...  

Yes, i chose this one on purpose.  

[pico]

Guys, guys, come on. This is a friendly forum. Let's keep the temperature down...

[Scatcat]

8 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Bragger! You clearly win the prize for intelligence.  Riding the ACM with my feet embedded into the spiked ‘pedals from hell’ was clearly idiotic on my part.  

@Rehab1 Oh, you could well have walked away without a scratch too, if you hadn't glued your feet to your pedals

But to an extent that was kind of my point. We never know for certain before we fall, if we're going to be lucky this time around...

There's so much shit that can happen, like the time I fell diagonally and all my old muscle memory failed me miserably. If I hadn't gotten at least one foot under me before hitting the ground, I might well have fallen hard enough on my right arm to get a fracture. Or if my last fall, when the GT16 had a battery fault had been a few meters later, where I would have hit a curb sticking out into the road... wooooooahhh! 

Basically shit may happen, sometimes just because of bad luck. We don't really need to go court disaster ourselves. That doesn't mean we have to be chicken, just sane.

@Darrell Wesh OK so I kind of get what you mean. But be careful that it is self-knowledge and not arrogance speaking, because fate has a sadistic habit of fucking around with those who mistake the two.

The environment I'm riding in is full of cracks and pot-holes, our politicians are useless in prioritizing infrastructure, and some of the roads are like a moguls run. I'm normally cruising those roads at 30-35kph on a 16" wheel, which is well within the limits of my skill. I've ridden through quite a few unseen pot-holes without problems, I've ridden in winter conditions, on ice, snow, wet leaves and through mud, gravel and sand. I've slipped and slided some and still stayed on. While I'm not an acrobatic wheeler, I know my skill and its limits quite well.

I've still fallen a few times, and all of them by idiotic causes: Battery overload going downhill, hitting an unexpected curb hidden under a puddle diagonally, getting my pedal caught on a curb when turning, getting a flat in a sharp turn, and lastly because of a battery fault that caused a sudden cut out.

Two of these were at higher speeds, the rest at pretty low speeds. The worst I've hurt myself so far, is a few millimeters of skin of a knuckle and sore muscles. But the experiences have taught me to respect the wheel, not be afraid of it, but respect it.

There is also the thing with braking. While we can brake pretty hard, the lag from unprepared to hard braking is usually quite a bit longer than on a bike or in a car. But of course that is skill too.

So sure, part of the skill is to know the limits of your skill. But that only considers the situations where it is your skill that decides if you're f*cked or not.

[travsformation]

As an additional detail to this thread, there's a video making the rounds of the victim in question riding out of the hospital on his EUC (I won't share it out of respect for privacy; it's not my call to make). But say what you will, titanium implants involve surgery, which involves deep incisions; it doesn't take a fall, just too sharp a reflex movement to make the stitches open up. That's just a plain stupid, male-ego, show-off move. We don't need martyrs or survivors to further our cause, we need people with a brain i their head.

Should anyone need translating (because apparently lack of understanding of how a wheel works and lack of understanding that Google Translate is a simple option to translate from Spanish to English go hand in hand), don't hesitate to let me know. Translating is what I do for a living. Yet an image is worth a thousand words...so no input required on my side...

[Fernando Llambias]

I also thought the same :

I can totally understand that a casual consumer does not expect a product to fail by design in an entirely unsafe way.

My Ninebot E+ failed not once, but Twice !! Bought it Brand new , and had only 30 Kms , and I was extremely happy , But at the second Cut-Off , I Broke my shoulder !!!!

Still waiting for Ninebot's explanation !!

I am 68 old , and still can't believe in what a stupid way I broke my shoulder !!!!

If they fail that much , they should have the obligation of advertising it , they are real dangerous vehicles !!

Manufacturers and sellers hide the tooth !!!!

[Fernando Llambias]

So sure, part of the skill is to know the limits of your skill.

I knew perfectly my limits !! , But  really didn't know that this vehicles fail that much !!

I've done several tutorials , and was learning without any fall , Until Twice unexpected cut's off !! Result : Right Broken shoulder !!!!!!

My Ninebot E+ was brand new , and has only 30 Kilometers !! I won't ride it anymore , I'm afraid now , don't trust it anymore !!

Which is the more confident Brand ? 

All of them fail ?

Thank You.

[Nic]

17 minutes ago, Fernando Llambias said:

So sure, part of the skill is to know the limits of your skill.

I knew perfectly my limits !! , But  really didn't know that this vehicles fail that much !!

I've done several tutorials , and was learning without any fall , Until Twice unexpected cut's off !! Result : Right Broken shoulder !!!!!!

My Ninebot E+ was brand new , and has only 30 Kilometers !! I won't ride it anymore , I'm afraid now , don't trust it anymore !!

Which is the more confident Brand ? 

All of them fail ?

Thank You.

Can you explain what happened in more detail?

[Fernando Llambias]

Hi Nic !!

I bought the Ninebot One E+ Brand new , I received it at my home in Argentina , was waiting till it arrived , with all the illusion !! , I received it early october , meanwhile watched all tutorials I found on Youtube. Started practicing indoors , and when I acquired the basic skills , went to the riverside , were there's no traffic , and ride it perfect , till the first cut-off !! I fall strongly but with luck , Broke me pants, my knee an hit with the head the wooden deck , but softly.

I got in contact with the seller (Speedy Feet.uk) , and Ian told me to recharge it and not to worry. I had always recharged it after each use.

And a week after , having 57% battery and 15 kilometers autonomy , came the second and terrible cut-off , and now I broke my right shoulder !!

Sitill waiting from ninebot an explanation ?, send them the info from the Black Box , and still wondering How can this happen !!

I am aircraft pilot , motorcycle motocross competitor , and now at my 68 years old , in this stupid way waiting for possible surgery.

Unbelievable !!

Thanks for your comments and helping me to understand what others hide !!

Sincerely

Fernando

 

[Nic]

1 hour ago, Fernando Llambias said:

Hi Nic !!

I bought the Ninebot One E+ Brand new , I received it at my home in Argentina , was waiting till it arrived , with all the illusion !! , I received it early october , meanwhile watched all tutorials I found on Youtube. Started practicing indoors , and when I acquired the basic skills , went to the riverside , were there's no traffic , and ride it perfect , till the first cut-off !! I fall strongly but with luck , Broke me pants, my knee an hit with the head the wooden deck , but softly.

I got in contact with the seller (Speedy Feet.uk) , and Ian told me to recharge it and not to worry. I had always recharged it after each use.

And a week after , having 57% battery and 15 kilometers autonomy , came the second and terrible cut-off , and now I broke my right shoulder !!

Sitill waiting from ninebot an explanation ?, send them the info from the Black Box , and still wondering How can this happen !!

I am aircraft pilot , motorcycle motocross competitor , and now at my 68 years old , in this stupid way waiting for possible surgery.

Unbelievable !!

Thanks for your comments and helping me to understand what others hide !!

Sincerely

Fernando

 

Fernando, when you had your cut-off, how fast were you going, what is your weight, were you going uphill, were you accelerating hard, was the weather cold ... all these things need to be considered. I think that at 68 years old an EUC is not your best choice for transport as there are risks involved. I am not familiar with the Ninebot E+, but it is not a powerful wheel and if the battery is low,  old, or temperature low, then a cut-off becomes more likely. There are many things to consider. I do believe that if you like EUCs and want to ride one safely, then you need to be looking at something a little more powerful than the E+. I hope someone else with experience of this model can chime in and help. In the meantime, ride at a speed your can run at, and accelerate gently by moving your weight towards your toes rather than by leaning forward ... and always be ready to bail. If your wheels cuts-off while going steady speed and not putting load on the wheel by accelerating, then that would indicate a fault.

[Smoother]

Well, seeing as he said he hit his head on the wooden boards, and also posted a picture of what looks like a very level and smooth board walk, I would assume he was riding along more or less level.  I do agree that the E+ is not a particularly strong wheel; definitely last generation stuff.  A lot of it comes down to battery size, and percentage of charge.  I learned the hard way that a small battery and reduced state of charge is a one way ticket to face plantville. (I had a 340Wh battery)

Fernando tell us your battery size, and if its less than 640Wh, ride cautiously below 60% battery as voltage sag can bite you in the ass if a sudden demand for power is more than it can give at that moment..