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GT16 Top Speed Test - Fall at 51km/h without protection


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If people saw me riding around naked, probabilistically there would be chaos in the streets, small children crying, women swooning, and small dogs chasing after me trying to bite “the sausage.”  Probabilistically speaking, of course.  :innocent1:

:blink:  Oh oh, meeps, save me!  I feel the “winter wheelless madness” setting on!

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3 hours ago, enaon said:

the footage is frightening, looking at it I cannot really see how one could do anything, I agree. I don't know if it is adrenaline or something else, I believe it it related to being exposed to danger, I am sure all that ride bikes know the situation, where time goes by really slow. If there is a move you can make to save yourself, you have all the time in the world within that one second to find it. I agree that the time window is short to perform the action you decided, but time slows down when in danger, this is my experience till now.

this clip is nice, he has less than a sec and he has to make 4 perfect choices (after the bad one), time went reaaallyyy slow. It could be pure luck thought, I am not sure  :)

https://streamable.com/93kx0

My last crash was at about 30kph, I still managed to get my arms up in almost the correct angle, get my padded knees symmetrically down, shins up, get my fingers out of the way to land on the glide-pads. Even so the impact force was enough that I had to scrap the helmet afterwards. But after kind of "counting my fingers and toes" I rose and brushed myself off, swearing enough to add a few years in purgatory. Then I had to carry the bloody 17kg wheel the last 500 meters to my work. Be happy no person heckled me on the way, or I would be in jail right now ;) 

No broken skin, no scuffed knees, no contusions. But the day after my muscles were really sore, like as if I had tried to benchpress an ox.

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10 hours ago, Nic said:

The way you explain the physics of it makes me really worried about falling ...it sounds a bit like swatting a fly

The physics I described are particular to when the gryoscope decides to take a vacation..overlean/overcurrent related faceplants are a nasty monster. The fly swatter analogy is actually a pretty good example; no one tries to kill a fly with a rigid object (stick, log, hardcover book); we use fly swatters or flexible objects (rolled up magazines, etc.) because they accumulate kinetic energy as they flex backwards while we begin to swat, so when it's released in the form that "swoosh" forward, it's adding to the force (and speed) that we've applied.

Then, the force with which you fall in an overlean scenario isn't the only concerning variable, but also how quickly they happen, and the position of your feet, which are side by side and get "pulled" behind you when the gyroscope effs off, making the odds of using your legs to not land face-first much more unlikely, and in the best case scenario, still not of much use.

I've overleant once, intentionally, doing about 10 km/h, maybe a little more, and even though I knew what to expect, it happened to fast that I only realized I was about to hit the ground when I was already half-way there, and all I had time to do was put my hands out in front of me an brace for impact. That's why it's hyper important to know your wheel and its limits, and listen to its beeps and warnings.

10 hours ago, Nic said:

I think my riding style is a little weird because I don't lean to move forward, but instead I move pressure towards my toes while staying upright with only a very slight lean to stop me falling backwards.

Also, based on what you said, an overlean is unlikely in your case, unless you completely disregard the wheel's warnings. In the event of an electronic malfunction, accelerating with your toes is still putting forward pressure on the pedals, and will cause a similar (albeit less pronounced) effect as leaning forward; but it might buy you an extra couple tenths of a second, and will definitely make the impact less harsh. All the same, once I overcame the initial fear of leaning forward and started accelerating with my whole body instead of just my toes, I found riding became much less taxing on the ol' feet and ankles, and as I said, unless you disregard the wheel' warnings, it shouldn't involve an additional risk of any kind.

But don' worry too much about that, I'm not trying to scare anyone here. There are plenty of other ways to fall that fit into more "conventional" scenarios that we can react much better to.

Edit: That last sentence was meant to be reassuring, but upon re-reading it...I'm not sure it reads as intended :efee612b4b:

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9 minutes ago, Nic said:

Lets hope the legislators don't read this thread.:wacko:

Good thing Spanish legislators can't speak English for sh*t! Or a) We'd be screwed and b) I'd be out of a job :efee612b4b: (teaching and translation)

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17 hours ago, Scatcat said:

That we will. I hope you're right, or at least that it won't be too painful if you're not...

---

Hello all you veteran riders here @Marty Backe, @The Fat Unicyclist, @eddiemoy, @meepmeepmayer, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, @Rehab1, @esaj, @YoshiSkySun, and all you others that I failed to use as examples. How many of you have managed not to fall flat at least once - in a way that made you happy to have gear on, or unhappy you didn't?

We'll see what kind of replies we get...

Always Happy having all the protection I can get , perhaps looking ridiculous with my motorcycle full face helmet on !!

I forgot to tell , that on my first Cut Off , Pressing the power button on my Ninebot One E+ didn't put the wheel On, it did't make any difference ? I could only do it after recharging it ? (Only could get Power ON after recharge)

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9 hours ago, Fernando Llambias said:

Always Happy having all the protection I can get , perhaps looking ridiculous with my motorcycle full face helmet on !!

I forgot to tell , that on my first Cut Off , Pressing the power button on my Ninebot One E+ didn't put the wheel On, it did't make any difference ? I could only do it after recharging it ? (Only could get Power ON after recharge)

That is a bms cut-off, your battery was too low. At that stage, if you were sure that the battery was not empty when that happened, it was a bad idea to ride the wheel again. Do what I asked you, check your battery voltages and post them here please. 

 

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A few points based on all I have read here, bearing in mind I have FP'd more than a typical 4 or 5 of you combined (not something I take pride in):

1.When your wheel stops balancing, for any reason, and you are at speed, the ground rushes up frighteningly quickly.  I believe @Scatcats one second estimate is a luxurious time frame.  I can raise a pistol from a non-threatening position and shoot two people (cardboard targets) twice each in the chest in 0.88 seconds (.40 cal full power rounds, no wimpy half loads. it's official). So I know, one second is a long time when the shit hits the fan. I would say from beginning of fall to hitting the ground (when going more than 15 mph) no more than 0.4sec.  You really have no time to do anything, especially because you were not planning for the event, and both feet are now behind you.

2. I believe, at speed, trying to run it off can be more injurious that simply pancaking to the ground (assuming reasonably full protection). So in this regard, having no time to fully react might be a God send.  People who put at least one foot out, often injure the foot, the associated knee, and possibly a hip as their bodies rotate away from full frontal, in reaction to the asymmetric force generated when one foot hits the ground. 

EDIT I also believe that this is the most likely scenario to break a wrist, elbow or shoulder.  Why?  because by putting out a foot (possibly with knee contact too) you have arrested your bodies natural forward motion which was leading you to a slide.  Now your foot/knee has become a fulcrum about which your body pivots forwards, at speed, thrusting your torso (and arms) towards the ground at a steeper trajectory than the one it was in.  This is where the danger of sticking the landing with a wrist or two, comes from.  So now, you have shock loaded your foot, ankle, shin, knee, and hip, and set up your fingers, wrist, elbow, and shoulder for the same.  Trust me, sliding it out is better every time (with protection).

 

I believe that I have hurt myself least, when sliding across the ground on my chest, arms out in front, legs out in back.  This distributes the force over as wide an area as possible; reducing localized trauma such a @Rehab1 and many others have had.  If you have ever seen a cat fall from height, this is their stance.  you can see them prepare for the impact.  They spread out wide (adds a bit of wind resistance in their case) and absorb the impact over their whole lower body.

3. Lastly, I believe that wearing gear that allows you to slide is key.  Sliding prevents "sticking the landing".  If any part of you stops dead on contact, that part of you, and everything associated with it, receive 100% of the force (in that area)  We all know energy cannot be created or destroyed.  In this example you are converting kinetic energy into....I don't know what.  But, that energy has to go somewhere.  In @Rehab1s case it went up to his shoulder and when it could go no further , the head of this bone snapped off.  In the case of the OP he broke something; arm, leg,  Whatever, this is a direct result of sticking the landing.  Of course, with no safety gear, the prospect of sliding would have been equally unappealing.  So I recommend making sure your outer layer of whatever, allows you to slide, especially your wrists, and elbows, sticking these may result in bone damage.

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4 minutes ago, Smoother said:

A few points based on all I have read here, bearing in mind I have FP'd more than a typical 4 or 5 of you combined (not something I take pride in):

1.When your wheel stops balancing, for any reason, and you are at speed, the ground rushes up frighteningly quickly.  I believe @Scatcats one second estimate is a luxurious time frame.  I can raise a pistol from a non-threatening position and shoot two people (cardboard targets) twice each in the chest in 0.88 seconds (.40 cal full power rounds, no wimpy half loads. it's official). So I know, one second is a long time when the shit hits the fan. I would say from beginning of fall to hitting the ground (when going more than 15 mph) no more than 0.4sec.  You really have no time to do anything, especially because you were not planning for the event, and both feet are now behind you.

2. I believe, at speed, trying to run it off can be more injurious that simply pancaking to the ground (assuming reasonably full protection). So in this regard, having no time to fully react might be a God send.  People who put at least one foot out, often injure the foot, the associated knee, and possibly a hip as their bodies rotate away from full frontal in reaction to the asymmetric force generated when one foot hits the ground. I believe that I have hurt myself least, when sliding across the ground on my chest, arms out on front, legs out in back.  This distributes the force over as wide an area as possible; reducing localized trauma such a @Rehab1 and many others have had.  If you have ever seen a cat fall from height, this is their stance.  you can see them prepare for the impact.  They spread out wide (adds a bit of wind resistance in their case) and absorb the impact over their whole lower body.

3. Lastly, I believe that wearing gear that allows you to slide is key.  Sliding prevents "sticking the landing".  If any part of you stops dead on contact, that part of you, and everything associated with it, receive 100% of the force (in that area)  We all know energy cannot be created or destroyed.  In this example you are converting kinetic energy into....I don't know what.  But, that energy has to go somewhere.  In @Rehab1s case it went up to his shoulder and when it could go no further , the head of this bone snapped off.  In the case of the OP he broke something; arm, leg,  Whatever, this is a direct result of sticking the landing.  Of course, with no safety gear, the prospect of sliding would have been equally unappealing.  So I recommend making sure your outer layer of whatever, allows you to slide, especially your wrists, and elbows, sticking these may result in bone damage.

I need that super up vote button for this post !!! 

I am going to print this out and frame it on the wall!! 

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21 minutes ago, Smoother said:

A few points based on all I have read here, bearing in mind I have FP'd more than a typical 4 or 5 of you combined (not something I take pride in):

1.When your wheel stops balancing, for any reason, and you are at speed, the ground rushes up frighteningly quickly.  I believe @Scatcats one second estimate is a luxurious time frame.  I can raise a pistol from a non-threatening position and shoot two people (cardboard targets) twice each in the chest in 0.88 seconds (.40 cal full power rounds, no wimpy half loads. it's official). So I know, one second is a long time when the shit hits the fan. I would say from beginning of fall to hitting the ground (when going more than 15 mph) no more than 0.4sec.  You really have no time to do anything, especially because you were not planning for the event, and both feet are now behind you.

2. I believe, at speed, trying to run it off can be more injurious that simply pancaking to the ground (assuming reasonably full protection). So in this regard, having no time to fully react might be a God send.  People who put at least one foot out, often injure the foot, the associated knee, and possibly a hip as their bodies rotate away from full frontal in reaction to the asymmetric force generated when one foot hits the ground. I believe that I have hurt myself least, when sliding across the ground on my chest, arms out on front, legs out in back.  This distributes the force over as wide an area as possible; reducing localized trauma such a @Rehab1 and many others have had.  If you have ever seen a cat fall from height, this is their stance.  you can see them prepare for the impact.  They spread out wide (adds a bit of wind resistance in their case) and absorb the impact over their whole lower body.

3. Lastly, I believe that wearing gear that allows you to slide is key.  Sliding prevents "sticking the landing".  If any part of you stops dead on contact, that part of you, and everything associated with it, receive 100% of the force (in that area)  We all know energy cannot be created or destroyed.  In this example you are converting kinetic energy into....I don't know what.  But, that energy has to go somewhere.  In @Rehab1s case it went up to his shoulder and when it could go no further , the head of this bone snapped off.  In the case of the OP he broke something; arm, leg,  Whatever, this is a direct result of sticking the landing.  Of course, with no safety gear, the prospect of sliding would have been equally unappealing.  So I recommend making sure your outer layer of whatever, allows you to slide, especially your wrists, and elbows, sticking these may result in bone damage.

Yes one second is a very generous time frame. I have not exactly clocked it, but I would guess it is distinctly shorter than that. My reasons for giving such a "luxurious" time frame, was avoiding bickering about how long it takes.

Running or not running? I'm not sure. I think the risk of sprains and other foot-/hip-/elbow-injuries goes up some if you try to run it off and fail.

OTOH falling and being able to walk away, is all about dispersing energy in some way that is not cracking your bone structure or using your skin as sand-paper to smooth out the asphalt. If you manage to take a step or two before falling, the geometry changes and you may lessen the bowling pin imitation factor. Same thing with rolling. If you fail, you're going to get hurt, but if you succeed a lot of energy goes harmlessly into the roll. Look at parkour, and how they disperse their energy.

I noted elsewhere that I've learned a falling technique (thank you my old old old skateboard), that makes you take the impact on limbs at an angle. Basically angling out your elbows some, while keeping your hands closer together and forward. If you have good gliding pads on the wrists/hands, elbows and knees, you can disperse quite a lot of energy while at the same time avoid the impact to travel straight up into your shoulders.

The down-side is soreness in the muscles or worse. But muscles mend quicker and with less risk of serious problems than bone matter.

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3 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Same thing with rolling. If you fail, you're going to get hurt, but if you succeed a lot of energy goes harmlessly into the roll. Look at parkour, and how they disperse their energy.

The problem with parkour analogies in the EUC world is that Parkour dudes are always preparing a few moved ahead  They decide what is going to happen and how its going to happen, and when its going to happen.,.  Stand a parkour dude on a kitchen hop up step, tie ropes around his ankles and them randomly yank his feet backwards from under him, and he will fall flat on his face too; no preparation time, no planning. 

Another problem with trying to roll it out, is that now you are deliberately bringing your shoulder (and head if not fully helmeted) into danger of high speed contact with the ground.  Ask @Rehab1 if shoulder injuries are a walk in the park.  (yeah yeah, I know, his was not necessarily contact, but it got injured none the less).

 

Also, if you do manage to roll, and you are wearing your expensive full face helmet, and it makes contact with the ground, you now have the dilemma of "do I bin it or do I keep wearing it?"  You've turned a simple walk-it-off slide a la baseball base runner,  into potential shoulder /head injury and possibly expensive brain bucket replacement, too.

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23 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I clocked a cut out using video editing. (0.4 seconds)

....... Hey ? I just noticed that you edited your post. Now I am going to have to reprint it. 

0.4! really?  That was just an estimate on my part.  Pats self on back. (I'm out of" up votes" today, just so you know)

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3 hours ago, Smoother said:

The problem with parkour analogies in the EUC world is that Parkour dudes are always preparing a few moved ahead  They decide what is going to happen and how its going to happen, and when its going to happen.,.  Stand a parkour dude on a kitchen hop up step, tie ropes around his ankles and them randomly yank his feet backwards from under him, and he will fall flat on his face too; no preparation time, no planning. 

Another problem with trying to roll it out, is that now you are deliberately bringing your shoulder (and head if not fully helmeted) into danger of high speed contact with the ground.  Ask @Rehab1 if shoulder injuries are a walk in the park.  (yeah yeah, I know, his was not necessarily contact, but it got injured none the less).

 

Also, if you do manage to roll, and you are wearing your expensive full face helmet, and it makes contact with the ground, you now have the dilemma of "do I bin it or do I keep wearing it?"  You've turned a simple walk-it-off slide a la baseball base runner,  into potential shoulder /head injury and possibly expensive brain bucket replacement, too.

Yes, that IS a problem with the parkour analogy.

Yes rolling it out is not without risk. But it doesn't even come into play if you have a full cut out, there's just not time enough to set up a roll. 0.4 seconds, remember... ;) 

But not all falls are cut-outs, quite a few are falls where you lose your balance for one reason or the other. Unexpected speed bumps that makes you air-borne, pedals getting caught on curbs, bollards or branches, mud-puddles that make you slide and lose it - and so on. In those cases you still fall, you still fall forward (in most cases) and you still have to disperse that energy somehow.

I've had two such falls, both from curbs. One where my pedal hit the curb, the other where the curb was hidden in a water puddle and threw my steering violently left. That experience is totally different. Your body flies forward, but not at the same angle. In both cases the first thing touching the ground was my foot.

In the first case I almost managed three steps before the fall was inevitable, I might even have run out of it if the direction wasn't diagonal. A roll out of it came naturally, but I still scrapped one of my knee-pads.

In the second case I got a foot down and managed to initiate a roll with the small leverage that gave me, which meant I made a full roll before gliding the last foot or so. The only damage I got, was from smashing my left foot into the EUC before I got airborne. Must have looked rather funny.

In none of the cases did the helmet touch the ground. If you're not certain you can change your body position enough to make a roll without impact on head or the front of your shoulder, you shouldn't even try. The way to test what you're able to do is not by falling from a EUC, it is by falling on a mat after having tried the thing i slo-mo. I read a book about ju-jutsu when skating, then tried on a mat after PE-classes until I felt I had it down pat. Then asked a friend to push me from behind towards the mat, to try it out "live". I repeated the movement a lot of times on grass when I skated. And when I got stuck on a stone going downhill on my skateboard I found myself standing 10-15 feet away after a full roll, more than a little surprised that my body had remembered on its own.

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1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

Unexpected speed bumps that makes you air-borne, pedals getting caught on curbs, bollards or branches, mud-puddles that make you slide and lose it - and so on

Unexpected speed bumps that makes you air-born: BEEN THERE

pedals getting caught on curbs: DONE THAT

bollards: THAT TOO

or branches:  UH HUH

mud-puddles that make you slide and lose it: GOT THE TEE-SHIRT

Have you been following me around?

You missed about 10 more ways I have come off.  You must have been on a break.

Your fall and roll training sounds interesting.

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8 hours ago, Smoother said:

I believe that I have hurt myself least, when sliding across the ground on my chest, arms out in front, legs out in back.  This distributes the force over as wide an area as possible; reducing localized trauma such a @Rehab1 and many others have had

The way my pecs now stick out, thanks to @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, I’d probably leave 2 grooves in the asphalt. :wacko:

 

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8 hours ago, Smoother said:

Also, if you do manage to roll, and you are wearing your expensive full face helmet, and it makes contact with the ground, you now have the dilemma of "do I bin it or do I keep wearing it?"  You've turned a simple walk-it-off slide a la baseball base runner,  into potential shoulder /head injury and possibly expensive brain bucket replacement, too.

Ok I am anything but knowledgeable about baseball. I have see different slides in tv though....I just can't seem to recall seeing any on tarmac or asphalt or concrete for that matter.

Of course I am getting old(er) so might be lag of memory or knowledge..and I never used skateboards so...

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On 12/18/2018 at 2:40 AM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

If people saw me riding around naked, probabilistically there would be chaos in the streets, small children crying, women swooning, and small dogs chasing after me trying to bite “the sausage.”  Probabilistically speaking, of course.  :innocent1:

Amazing what you can find on the internet! :o

44582689860_249838625c_b.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Smoother said:

Unexpected speed bumps that makes you air-born: BEEN THERE

pedals getting caught on curbs: DONE THAT

bollards: THAT TOO

or branches:  UH HUH

mud-puddles that make you slide and lose it: GOT THE TEE-SHIRT

Have you been following me around?

You missed about 10 more ways I have come off.  You must have been on a break.

Your fall and roll training sounds interesting.

:roflmao:

I am the ninja in the shadows ;) 

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7 hours ago, Unventor said:

Ok I am anything but knowledgeable about baseball. I have see different slides in tv though....I just can't seem to recall seeing any on tarmac or asphalt or concrete for that matter.

Of course I am getting old(er) so might be lag of memory or knowledge..and I never used skateboards so...

Oh, you glide on asphalt too
                                                  o
                                                    oooooo..... And it's either your skin or your protection that takes the abrasion.

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Guys, I thing we are mixing injuries with baby wounds :) 

Ok a faceplant is very serious and alarming, but scarfs in the skin from sliding, really? One can get those by tripping when running, have we ever stopped to consider armoring up before our next run? Do we all ride that fast? :)

 

this thread is scary :w00t2:

 

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2 hours ago, enaon said:

Guys, I thing we are mixing injuries with baby wounds :) 

Ok a faceplant is very serious and alarming, but scarfs in the skin from sliding, really? One can get those by tripping when running, have we ever stopped to consider armoring up before our next run? Do we all ride that fast? :)

 

this thread is scary :w00t2:

 

There is a bit of a difference falling while running 7-8mph and falling, and wheeling at 20-25mph and falling...

The abrasion damage at 7-8mph is nothing to sneeze at, but seldom more than just temporarily painful.

But consider this comparison from "Ride Mag" 2011, abrasion resistance at "road speed" not clearly defined, but relative numbers are still interesting:

  • Hein Gericke Reno leather jeans: 4.74 seconds 
  • Draggin' Biker kevlar jeans: 3.07 seconds 
  • Hornee kevlar jeans: 1.39 seconds 
  • Rev'it Sand textile trousers: 0.71 seconds 
  • Levi stonewash 501s: 0.56 seconds 
  • Tesco Cherokee jeans: 0.16 seconds 

Someone, don't remember who, told me a pair of jeans you fall on at 25mph keeps the asphalt from your skin for half a second or so - then you're on the grinder. Not sure I want something that can destroy a pair of 501's in half a second rubbing against my skin.

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15 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

:ph34r:  No need to remind me about my unfortuante Thai prison holiday.  :cry2:  I remember it all too well!

  :whistling:

@Hunka Hunka Burning Love so did I get this right? The story started with you being sober?...I wounded what could happen at "happy hour" 😁

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