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Slartibartfast

MSuper X SpazZing Out

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On 11/14/2018 at 7:14 AM, Slartibartfast said:

I was going for a ride around a path I ride frequently when suddenly for no reason I felt my MSuper X give a slight jolt and make a small tick/clunk sound. I was surprised and thought possibly I may have ridden over a stick or something I hadn't noticed, so turned around and went back to see if I could see anything. There was nothing to be seen, but while poking back I felt the same 'tick' again. I then proceeded to give fore and back oscillations to see if I could work out what was going on. I had just replaced one of the pedals and thought potentially something was loose in there so I was trying to find out what was knocking, then the wheel completely spazzed out! There were several loud clunking/knocking sounds, then the motor completely disengaged and the alarm sounded. After turning it off and back on again the motor re-engaged but after just a a moment of rotation it spazzed out again.

After walking the wheel back home and removing the sides to see if I could see anything wrong I made this video to demonstrate:

Anyone know what's going on or what I can do to get it working again?

 

Note I live in Australia and we don't really have any service centers here. This unit in particular I ordered from Green Fashion off AliExpress.

I have seen this problem with one of my older KS18 wheels. Turns out that in my case it was the hall motor sensor.@US69 was instrumental in helping me to get to the bottom of that problem.

I needed new motor and board; it may be that you can do with just a control board. If you bought off Ali you might not have a warranty. In that case you will have to purchase your replacements.

I will look for the video links of my problem demos for the manufacturer and add them to this reply. 

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Taking apart the motor is a lot more intimidating than it is hard. Actually you can get away with only removing the cap on the wire side. If you have basic soldering and glueing skills, replacing a hall sensor isn't that hard either. It would be a bit more tiresome if the cable inside the isolations is broken, then you have to replace a wire that is in a bundle in thick isolation.

If the seller refuses sending a new motor, and you tire of arguing with him about it, I would at least try that before shelling out for a new motor.

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Suffering with you, great you made a thread about it.

If it is the motor they need to send one asap, speedy delivery imho!

I hope they do cause I bought my MSX in China too and if I cannot trust that I get the service I need if braking down in the future, well it would suck let's just say so hope for the best, what you want to see is speedy service, build trust so that it feels good to go back to the store again and again, better for the seller too to fix it fast if you tried all they told you to and still not working, right? ..or am I looking at it wrong? I honestly do not think so.

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To be honest this it turning into quite the run around and I'm kind of regretting having ordered from this seller.

They did (finally) send a replacement control board but it did not fix the problem and when I asked them to send a replacement motor they are giving me strange responses, and keep telling me to check the wiring, so I replied with:

Okay, I have checked that plug again. Now what?

To which they responded:

What is the situation? This is my mailbox, you can shoot me the video of the car startup.
 
I mean what are they saying??? I can only guess that they want a video of the problem (which I have already sent them 3 times) but there is no link to a mailbox or anything and no email address given. It's really frustrating. It has now been 2  and a 1/2 months since this sensor failed (which means I've basically been without this wheel for the entire summer) and Green Fashion are just being hopeless about getting it repaired. It is so annoying!
 
As it was I even chose Green Fashion in particular as they are meant to be one of the more reputable sellers on AliExpress but they relay are turning out to be rather disappointing. I definitely won't be looking to them for my next perchance, I can tell you that!
Edited by Slartibartfast
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Sorry @Slartibartfast I'm late to the conversation.  I was on a forum sabbatical when this problem was first reported, so I missed it. Since I have recently had a Hall issue of my own, and I've had to replace an axle, I feel slightly qualified to render some advice. ( Good handle btw "Slartibartfast", The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy)

Right let me get to the issues as I see them.

1) all you can be sure of is the fault is not in the control board.  I had a feeling it wouldn't be there when I first started reading.  But, the good news, is you now have a spare control board.

b) The fault is now somewhere between the Hall connector on the board, and the Hall sensor

iii) Lets try to find the fault.  The easiest place to look is the nine Hall wires themselves where they enter the control board.  With the wheel partly disassembled but functional, manipulate the Hall wires and see if you can cause the fault to clear (beeping stops).  Here is me doing just that on a KS16s: (Only 5 wires on a modern King Song)

If this is successful you're almost home.  On my board this is not a connector.  As far as I can tell the white plastic piece is simply a terminator that keeps the 5 wires correctly spaced and in the correct order.  Repair was more than I wanted to tackle because it meant un-soldering all five wires from the board, and I was afraid I would damage the board.  Fortunately it was under warranty and my dealer Rsyzard at eunicycles.eu is very handy or knows handy people ( he had two different King Song axles smashed into one good axle for me).  Rsyzard had the terminator removed and soldered the 5 wires directly to the control board.  That and a month's worth of Christmas time shipping and the job's a good'n.

four) If wiggling the wires at the board does not point to the fault, continue wiggling down the whole wiring loom as far as you can go.  Keep an eye open for damaged wiring or anything that doesn't look right.  Pay particular attention to where they enter the axle; this 90 degree bend is a weak spot. If none of this works you have to go further.

v) So now (assuming Green pants won't send you a new motor) you're going to have to get inside the motor.  Good news, you only have to remove the cover AWAY from where the wires enter.  This is the side for the Hall Sensor(s) ( the other side if for motor wires only). More good news, the motor windings are self centering when you put the cover back on.  The cover has a ring molded into it that fits snugly in the rim.  The only thing to watch out for here is, make sure the bolt holes in the cover are lined up with the holes in the rim before it snaps into place as its not easy to align them afterwards ( but you can always try again).  What you're looking for (with high scrutiny) is damage to any of the wires (rubbing on cover for example) or a loose or detached wire at the Hall Sensor cluster. I would tug on each end carefully. If no problems present themselves we move to the next level.

chapter 2) get your soldering iron out and melt the solder on each of your 9 connectors.  Its slightly possible there is a dry joint here.  Immobilize each wire as you do this, so that it doesn't spring free when the solder goes molten.  You are nowhere near the actual sensors with the soldering iron, just the little soldering board they are connected to.  Test again to see if the beeping has stopped.  There's a slim chance that the wires might be rubbing on the shell on the other side of the motor (after they leave the axle and before they are routed to the side with the sensor(s). If you want to get into that side, that's up to you as it requires even more disassembly.

CAUTION When testing the beeps (assuming the motor is lying on its side) keep all body parts, tools, clothing, hair, etc away from the wheel.  If it spazzes out it will mess you up.

Editorial: buying a wheel directly from China is a gamble.  Most people win, but some get dealt a bad hand.  For them the savings don't pay off in the long run.  We all wish to be in the winning camp, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Edited by Smoother
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On 1/26/2019 at 3:27 PM, Slartibartfast said:

To be honest this it turning into quite the run around and I'm kind of regretting having ordered from this seller.

They did (finally) send a replacement control board but it did not fix the problem and when I asked them to send a replacement motor they are giving me strange responses, and keep telling me to check the wiring, so I replied with:


Okay, I have checked that plug again. Now what?

To which they responded:

What is the situation? This is my mailbox, you can shoot me the video of the car startup.
 
I mean what are they saying??? I can only guess that they want a video of the problem (which I have already sent them 3 times) but there is no link to a mailbox or anything and no email address given. It's really frustrating. It has now been 2  and a 1/2 months since this sensor failed (which means I've basically been without this wheel for the entire summer) and Green Fashion are just being hopeless about getting it repaired. It is so annoying!
 
As it was I even chose Green Fashion in particular as they are meant to be one of the more reputable sellers on AliExpress but they relay are turning out to be rather disappointing. I definitely won't be looking to them for my next perchance, I can tell you that!

Very sad to hear, saw Smoother post a very thorough info and guide you can try, if already done so then again and perhaps record it, can later use very handy free tools like Handbrake, MKVToolnix to convert, size down the video and cut the parts out you want to send to Green Fashion if asking for it or you want to proof it beyond...?

I understand you can physically open the wheel and swap sensors if they send some and a great last resort if all else braking down, heck it may even be easy if your one of the technically interested handy men here in the forum, but for a new wheel and already waited months without function? I would say heck no, DHL express me a brand new hub motor asap, I know exactly what you mean regarding the communication and seen on a few occasions buying in China. It's hard trying to keep that calm and explain the problem in detail using simple language that cannot be too distorted in case of using a translator, at some point it will be understood if not already, rest is up to them how they act I suppose? A customer should have to give up and go away, never imho! Can be a hassle through China though, but never accept it.

Get the frustration, but I did see a fellow Swede commenting being angry cause his Tesla did not work on arrival, then Green Fashion did immediately send a new motor out if I remember this comment correctly, want to remember he was still not happy but personally this I would understand. Personally I would feel good about a seller who send a new one straight away, would even ask if I can add the extra for DHL express type shipping, so yeah a bit of a lottery indeed.

Say it again and again but never get old, gosh I wish we had a Had a Jason/eWheels here in the EU now. It's just a smart businessman interested in his own field, putting his time into that and working hard for his customers in a all honest way, there must be such a man somewhere in the EU as well just wish such a guy can discover the EUC hobby and interested to make his living that way. There is a a difference between "good in general" and "always superb" service, I want what you guys in the US have access to. :D

Edited by Electroman
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@Slartibartfast there are plenty of instructions how to check hall sensors in the internet. All you need is 5v power supply or 18650 battery, and multimeter. Below instruction from one of the forums.

"The Hall Effect sensors require a +5V (H+) supply. Naturally, that's what your H-(0V) is for. You'll need to supply the Hall Effect sensors with this supply (almost no current required) to test them. You'll need a meter (DMM) as well.

Having connected the supply, meter between the H- and Ha, Hb, Hc terminals. Rotating the wheel should give you a pulse train from close to the supply level and back to zero. "

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Well, I pulled and pushed and pressed on the plug connecting the 5 wires coming from the wheel axle to the control board and no matter what I do the beeping won't stop. I also did my best to check and wiggle cable as it goes into the wheel axle but it's pretty hard to tell what is going on in there.

As it is I'm not really keen on opening up the motor itself. I live in a small one bedroom apartment on the 10 floor of a residential building and don't really have access to a workbench or proper tools or anything. Sure, I can undo screws with a screwdriver while sitting on the floor but anything that requires a proper work space or anything like a vice is actually rather daunting.

 

 

Anyway, I wrote to GreenFashion again saying I really didn't understand what they were trying to say and that I was becoming frustrated by how long it was taking them to resolve this, and asked again to have a replacement motor sent out and they responded with:

Quote

We are now a New Year's holiday.
In addition, it is impossible to solve the problem of the motor. Believe me, because the motor has never experienced a bad situation. Most of the reasons are the motherboard. The probability of a motor problem is small
When we officially work, I will follow this event again.

That was a week ago now. Here's hoping they will "officially work" again soon ;)

Edited by Slartibartfast
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Just insist on a new motor. He'll have to come through eventually. He's just at the "I don't want to believe it's the thing it is" stage. Tell him with 2 boards tested, it must be the motor.

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Well I can personally attest to the fact that ALL of China is on holiday.  I ran into about 30,000 of them the last two weekends in Cambridge England.  So if you calculate all the other touristy cities in the world, it's official "China is currently empty".  So they are not blowing smoke up your skirt. I'm actually surprised you got a human to answer, period.  I understand your reluctance to dismantle your wheel in a small place, on the floor.  Would it help you to know that the video I posted about my Hall Cables was shot inside my motor home?  I believe a lot of us do a lot of our EUC work on the floor, if we don't have access to a work bench, or even when we do. Even when I have access to a work bench it's usually in a dank dark cold garage. I prefer to be inside in the warmth, cup of tea near by, re runs of Top Gear or Wheeler Dealer on the TV.  Kinda makes it ok, because I'm not "taking time out of my day to fix my wheel" so much as "integrating wheel maintenance into my leisure time". So if it takes all evening, so what! I would have been watching TV anyway.

Your choice; wait for China to come home and fight for a new motor, or take a peek inside your own motor, or both.  Remember you only have to remove the motor cover opposite the cables, so you wont have to manufacturer/buy a special spanner to get around the motor cables. Ian at Speedyfeet has a video of Gotway pedal arm removal, and @Marty Backe has some wheel nut videos too.

EDIT.  If that axle nut causes you problems, take it to a mechanic and ask them to pop it off for you.  Might cost you a tenner.

Edited by Smoother

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2 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

Well, I pulled and pushed and pressed on the plug connecting the 5 wires coming from the wheel axle to the control board and no matter what I do the beeping won't stop. I also did my best to check and wiggle cable as it goes into the wheel axle but it's pretty hard to tell what is going on in there.

As it is I'm not really keen on opening up the motor itself. I live in a small one bedroom apartment on the 10 floor of a residential building and don't really have access to a workbench or proper tools or anything. Sure, I can undo screws with a screwdriver while sitting on the floor but anything that requires a proper work space or anything like a vice is actually rather daunting.

 

 

Anyway, I wrote to GreenFashion again saying I really didn't understand what they were trying to say and that I was becoming frustrated by how long it was taking them to resolve this, and asked again to have a replacement motor sent out and they responded with:

That was a week ago now. Here's hoping they will "officially work" again soon ;)

Unfortunately, you are in for some difficulties when you do eventually get the motor. Beyond the whole "install the tube & tire" difficulty, you will have to remove the pedal hangers from the old motor and install them on the new one. This is the hardest part of working on any wheel, particularly Gotway. It requires a rather robust method of clamping the assembly so you can apply enough force to loosen/tighten the axle nuts. I can't offer any advice; this is more of heads-up to what's forthcoming.

I recall @Jason McNeil saying the KingSong now supplies new motors with the pedal hangers pre-mounted. Wouldn't it be nice if Gotway did the same?

Good luck.

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While the aliexpress seller “green Fashion” has a ...lets say it caryfully “quite good reputation”... just lately i personally experienced some bad behaviour of this seller, too. It is very funny, as long as you are thinking about buying something in his shop, his english is really Ok.

As soon as some problems come up, it gets into a mess. My problems have not been about a problem with the wheel, but with the promise of free transport and customs....

As i am still in fight with Green Fashion, i am not going to much into detail. But when he continues to use Chinese New Year as a Excuse, i will.

@Slartibartfast Saying that “motor problems never come up” is just not correct...flying over the thread, for me ..after all tests you done..defintly seams like a direct hall sensor or even worse motor problem. Good luck in convincing the seller to send you a new motor.

Try to use the forum as “pressure point”...from my understanding Green at least understands that some of his sells are coming from here and French forum...

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