New riders and wheel's "learner speed limit"

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Good advice

Yeah, it seems no one eludes the asphalt! It will also be interesting to see whether a "proper" fall acts as a deterrent (to speed, the wheel, or both). I've read a few stories of people who had one serious fall and never got back on the wheel again (can't recall if they were wearing protection though)

Glad to hear luck was on your side when riding with no protection. What made you change your mind and gear up?

Great advice, thanks! 

If I had to summarise the ideas posted in this thread (BTW, thanks guys!), I guess it would be gear up, pay attention and be mindful, expect unforseen obstacles (even if you can't do anything about them), go the speed you're comfortable with, don't overstress (piss off) your wheel to the point where you're asking for a faceplant, and of course, expect to fall.

Ah yeah, that, and veteran members aren't white-bearded, all-knowing wizards! (Although the community as a whole might very well amount to one hive-mind mega-wizard) 

after seeing so many folks fall and badly at that.  I also had a bad fall on my boosted board with zero protection.  But i had started wearing protection before the bad fall, but on that one day i got stupid and didn't wear any.  took over 8 months to heal and my wrist is still not 100%.  

even those who were wearing protection with the bike helmets got really screwed up when they fell.  busted chins, messed up faces.  and these are those who were wearing protection, helmet but not the full face kind.  

there is zero chance of being 100% safe unless you decide not to ride.  all we can do is prepare for a fall that seems to hit everyone.  i still consider myself really really lucky since i've never been hurt on my euc yet.  but i can imagine and i always do the worst falls at top speed.  it is a good deterrent.  keeping the many many accidents in your head.  LOL

[Rehab1]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:04 PM, Dingfelder said:

I believe the tricky part about whether you get injured or not, once you know how to ride well, is not about skill.  Which is the scary part, because it's hard to control or allow for properly.

It's about attention.  Everyone is vulnerable to being inattentive.  Maybe you're tired or got in a fight with your wife, or maybe you're distracted by a loud noise off to your side, or maybe you're so confident that you don't even realize you're not paying as much attention as you should.  And so you miss noticing that weird thing in the road up ahead ...

In short, I wouldn't assume even a high level of skill is reliable insurance against injury.

Well stated! 

[meepmeepmayer]

8 hours ago, travsformation said:

@meepmeepmayer, your face-grating analogy really did a number on me!

Oh dear. I'm not sure how realistic/big of a danger that actually is. But it's what was on my mind when I was riding without a helmet.

I learned from falling without knee guards that I have a condition where some deeper wounds may not heal properly/leave scars. And I really don't need permanent scars in my face in addition to whatever a crash would be. So that was an extra concern for me. Other peope might just break their jaw and have some skin wounds in the face or whatever horrible stuff, but it will heal in time. Not sure if that would work for me. So that's where I'm coming from.

Though even before it never made sense to me to use a regular helmet when that would only be a half-measure, the way you 'd fall with EUCs. (But I've seen some skateboard crashes where they hit their face too, but the helmet prevented much worse, so it's not like regular helmets are useless! Better only face injuries than face injuries and God knows how much worse head injury.)

But for you, since you have a full face helmet now, you don't have to worry either way

10 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

The TSG Pass helmet is really good!  Light and comfortable.  They sometimes go on sale, the colors are not as popular.

How warm/non-airy is it? If I would buy such an expensive thing, it would have to work as a winter helmet for me, so it should be nice and snugly, not with the wind howling through every possible seam (proper ventilation notwithstanding).

I'm intrigued because it apparently has differently sized cheek pads one can clip in, which is very useful to get a proper fit with only a few generic helmet sizes otherwise (very happy my Fox Proframe does that too, I would have had to return it otherwise). And it does look nice.

--

Maybe this thread should eventually be moved into the Riding Safety and Protective Gear forum? It's all about that, and will quickly get lost in the General Discussion forum.

[Mono]

Two other simple question to assess your riding skills.

• what's the height of curbs you can pass without preparation at 8km/h.
• what's the speed at which you can go over speed bumps uneffected

for both, you also want to know the answer when your eyes are facing towards the sky (or even with closed eyes, sometimes we just overlook things or do not see them coming). The speed you can go over speed bumps while following your mini drone in the sky is the safe speed for your skill level.

[Mono]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:04 AM, Dingfelder said:

I believe the tricky part about whether you get injured or not, once you know how to ride well, is not about skill.  Which is the scary part, because it's hard to control or allow for properly.

It's about attention.  Everyone is vulnerable to being inattentive.  Maybe you're tired or got in a fight with your wife, or maybe you're distracted by a loud noise off to your side, or maybe you're so confident that you don't even realize you're not paying as much attention as you should.  And so you miss noticing that weird thing in the road up ahead ...

In short, I wouldn't assume even a high level of skill is reliable insurance against injury.

I agree that attention is very important, but I am also almost certain that there are riding skills that have a huge influence on riding safety.

My anecdotal evidence is that today I can ride through situations I would have face-planted two years ago. I even thought it is impossible to save or run off a clipped pedal situation, but by now I have (that doesn't mean I recommend clipping the pedal, I highly recommend to stay safely away from this kind of scenario).

Bending the knees is the single advice I have. The more critical the situation, the more bent the knees should be and an acquired immediate bending reflex is a life saver. One reason is that bent knees allow to move the wheel "freely" around under the body. Moving the wheel in front of the body is the prerequisite for hard braking. Further bending the knees also releases weight (for a very short time) and allows the wheel to recover from being displaced (behind when caught by a bump or pothole, sideways in a slippery curve...).

Of course knowing (consciously or unconsciously) and hence avoiding what is dangerous is another very important skill to be acquired.

[travsformation]

13 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

after seeing so many folks fall and badly at that.  I also had a bad fall on my boosted board with zero protection.  But i had started wearing protection before the bad fall, but on that one day i got stupid and didn't wear any.  took over 8 months to heal and my wrist is still not 100%.  

there is zero chance of being 100% safe unless you decide not to ride.  all we can do is prepare for a fall that seems to hit everyone.  i still consider myself really really lucky since i've never been hurt on my euc yet.  but i can imagine and i always do the worst falls at top speed.  it is a good deterrent.  keeping the many many accidents in your head.  LOL 

Seeing nasty falls first-hand must definitely fire up the mirror neurons! Sorry to hear about your injury and I hope you make a 100% recovery. Speaking of which, the best advice I can give you is to do the exercises "prescribed" by your physical therapist religiously. I didn't do so the first time I dislocated my shoulder, and although I recovered full mobility, I didn't strengthen the muscles that I tore (and that atrophied over the 8 weeks I had to wear a sling), and as a result, another fall a few years later popped my shoulder right out of place again. This time I stuck to the exercise regimen (hard not to when your partner is a physical therapist) because I REALLY don't fancy having that happen again, but as a result from not doing so the first time, the second injury occurred and there are certain pains that will probably never go away...

Do you do any specific exercises for rehab? If so, keep them up. If not, let me know what you broke exactly and I'll ask my partner for specific exercises you can do for  the muscles, tendons and ligaments that you need to strengthen, since there are a lot of these movements that we hardly ever make in everyday life. Consider it repayment for your very useful answers!

As to the impossibility of being 100% safe...definitely. There are so many variables at play....you can be wearing every type of protection in the world and land on the one square inch where you don't have any protection...

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh dear. I'm not sure how realistic/big of a danger that actually is. But it's what was on my mind when I was riding without a helmet.

I have a condition where some deeper wounds may not heal properly/leave scars. [...] And I really don't need permanent scars in my face in addition to whatever a crash would be.

But for you, since you have a full face helmet now, you don't have to worry either way

Well, realistic or not, my full-face helmet is on its way, so it did the trick!

I'd never heard of that condition, sorry to hear you have it. You'd probably be grating your teeth if you saw all the folks riding their motorcycles on the highway in t-shirts and shorts here in Spain!   Anyway, glad you're wearing a FF-helmet now and that nothing happened on those 5000 km you did with no helmet at all!

My FF-helmet should be delivered on Monday. I'll take it easy until then!

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

it would have to work as a winter helmet for me, so it should be nice and snugly, not with the wind howling through every possible seam (proper ventilation notwithstanding).

Hmmm...hadn't though of that. Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough.... (good thing winters aren't too cold, and at 30 km/h hopefully it won't be too bad)

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Two other simple question to assess your riding skills.

• what's the height of curbs you can pass without preparation at 8km/h.
• what's the speed at which you can go over speed bumps uneffected

for both, you also want to know the answer when your eyes are facing towards the sky (or even with closed eyes, sometimes we just overlook things or do not see them coming). The speed you can go over speed bumps while following your mini drone in the sky is the safe speed for your skill level.

Good point. I have no idea what speed I'm going when I go over curbs or speedbumps, but since the latter are pretty nasty here (nothing like the ones in Mexico though! MAN are those insane!), I generally slow down to slower than walking speed for the sake of the wheel (Sidenote: how easily can the wheel's axle be damaged by going over one too fast?) I have taken a couple much faster than I intended to (10-12 km/h maybe?). In one occasion I was doing about 20 km/h, saw it about 2.5-3 m in advance, and that's pretty much the space I had to brake. In addition to leaning back, relaxing my legs so knee-flex would absorb the impact seemed to help. But all the same, I see your point, that's a very good way of assessing whether one's skills are aligned with his riding skills!

[travsformation]

@meepmeepmayer I forgot, I agree this should be moved to riding safety and protective gear. @Marty Backe is a moderator right? (Is that the way to do it? Just tag a moderator?)

I have a slightly off-topic question in terms of torque and current.

Quote

 

As a wheel approaches its top speed, the available torque goes to zero linearly. So if you are too close to the top speed and a sudden torque requirement comes up, you're on your face. Naturally than can only happen near top speed.

Also, if you're at a high power usage (= high current) and a sudden extra power usage comes up, it may hit the current limit of a small (2p) battery like in the V8

 

Aside from going into a steep incline at high speed, or having to speed up suddenly, for whatever reason, when near max. speed, does hard braking (as in slamming on your brakes) also require a lot of torque (I'm guessing so, if I correctly understood how these motors work, that is), and can it cause a current surge that leads to an overload/poweroff?

Second slightly off-topic question: do you guys see any value in practising evasive manoeuvres? (As in sudden swerves to avoid an obstacle, and practise not losing control of the wheel). And in emergency bump/curb tackling at higher than expected speeds?

[meepmeepmayer]

20 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I have a slightly off-topic question in terms of torque and current.

Aside from going into a steep incline at high speed, or having to speed up suddenly, for whatever reason, when near max. speed, does hard braking (as in slamming on your brakes) also require a lot of torque (I'm guessing so, if I correctly understood how these motors work, that is), and can it cause a current surge that leads to an overload/poweroff?

It needs torque whenever the wheel changes speed

Real answer: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's not a comparable problem. You brake, current goes in the battery, not out. EUC BMSes are designed to not switch off on too high current draw, and I hope the same applies for the reverse direction. So the batteries would just get a very high charging current for a second or two. I don't think that is a problem similar to the voltage drop from a very high current draw where the batteries can't give more (a sudden bump also happens much faster than braking, so it's a more extreme situation).

Also, from what @palachzzz said somewhere, extremely hard braking would simply be the wheel electronics shorting the motor for tiny amounts of times, so that might theoretically even work with no battery connected(?).

But don't hold me to that, it's just conjecture, how the electric stuff works exactly is a mystery to me. Practically, one barely hears about any buttplants. My guess is, before a decent wheel can't brake no more, the tire has already slipped. But maybe your one mystery fall was the wheel disliking the too high current?

@Chriull Maybe you know.

24 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Second slightly off-topic question: do you guys see any value in practising evasive manoeuvres? (As in sudden swerves to avoid an obstacle, and practise not losing control of the wheel). And in emergency bump/curb tackling at higher than expected speeds?

If you feel like it, can't hurt.

[palachzzz]

14 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Also, from what @palachzzz said somewhere, extremely hard braking would simply be the wheel electronics shorting the motor for tiny amounts of times, so that might theoretically even work with no battery connected(?).

Shortening motor is necessary for regeneration to work. If there is no battery, then the voltage will rise to 100+ volts and the main board will be burnt. It works always when braking or downhill, extremely hard braking is not required.

[meepmeepmayer]

On the topic of braking and possible braking too hard, I just remembered this video where they jump the V8 from quite some heights. You can see how it behaves, including some beeps, when they don't land horizontally enough and the wheel has to brake:

 

[Mono]

9 hours ago, travsformation said:

Sidenote: how easily can the wheel's axle be damaged by going over one too fast?

That's difficult to do, maybe even impossible. It's easier (and commonly reported, though not with the V8) from going down a (high) curb. In all cases: how much force the axle has to take entirely depends on how stiff the knees are. With a little training you are able to feel how much strain you are putting, as it is the force you apply with your soles and knees the axle has to withstand.

[travsformation]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

On the topic of braking and possible braking too hard, I just remembered this video where they jump the V8 from quite some heights. You can see how it behaves, including some beeps, when they don't land horizontally enough and the wheel has to brake

Thanks, that was very useful! As they say, an image is worth a 1000 words!

The one thing that has be confused though is that going through the different sound alerts in the inmotion app, the max. speed alert is exclusive to max. speed, and the overload warning is "Overload, please get off" (I've got that one once, going down a steep hill at 100% battery). But I often what's supposedly the speed alert going up hills when there's no way I'm doing 25 km/h. A glitch maybe? Or the app uses the same sound for sudden overcurrents as for max. speed? I any case, when it beeps I slow down, I guess that's what matters

BTW, I wonder how long those guys' wheels last at that rate, with that kind of jumps...

[travsformation]

On 11/14/2018 at 1:44 PM, Mono said:

I agree that attention is very important, but I am also almost certain that there are riding skills that have a huge influence on riding safety.

My anecdotal evidence is that today I can ride through situations I would have face-planted two years ago.

Bending the knees is the single advice I have. The more critical the situation, the more bent the knees should be and an acquired immediate bending reflex is a life saver. One reason is that bent knees allow to move the wheel "freely" around under the body. Moving the wheel in front of the body is the prerequisite for hard braking. Further bending the knees also releases weight (for a very short time) and allows the wheel to recover from being displaced (behind when caught by a bump or pothole, sideways in a slippery curve...).

Of course knowing (consciously or unconsciously) and hence avoiding what is dangerous is another very important skill to be acquired.

I somehow managed to miss your comment. Very well put, by the way. I totally agree. Notwithstanding everything that's been said in this thread (the unexpected, not overpowering, falling being a given, paying attention, etc.), I have a feeling skill plays an important role, particularly at this stage, where confidence can get you into trouble that your skills won't get you out of. Maybe I'm comfortable riding at 30 km/h, but maybe my skill level isn't up to dealing with something unexpected at that speed, while at 20 km/h I might stand a much better chance. I guess that's up to me to assess my speed(fun)/safety ratio...In that respect, it also makes sense to me to work on technique, defensive riding, emergency braking, evasion manoeuvres, etc. alongside my regular riding, as opposed to just enjoying my very recently acquired confidence riding at speed, and riding the wheel without a care in the world, as if there weren't potential scenarios that are out of my control, but which I might have more control over (I'm not saying 100% control) at lower speeds or with better skills (needless to say, I'm not refering to the situations where there's absolutely nothing you can do to avoid doing a Superman impression ...)

Thanks for the bending the knees advice! It's come in handy for speedbumps, curbs and offroading, but I'll definitely take that into account for braking or wheel dispalacement scenarios too! Thanks!

And avoiding what's dangerous...I'd say I've got the unconscious/common sense part down; I guess the conscious part of that comes by discovering (possibly the hard way), with time and miles, dangers you weren't initially aware of...

[Footloose]

In the first week I learned to ride slowly and set the speedlimit around 25, riding slowly is more difficult then going fast, and if you ride fast then eventually you have to slow down so if you haven't got the necessary skills then you simply will fall soon or late, so focus on going slow.. 

After mastering slow riding you can gradually speed up the speed limiter.. for me it is at 35km/u ever since..  I could easily go faster but so far I havent feel the need for it.. having said that on straight sections I reach it all the time.. but I am fine with that.

Wearing protection at those speeds and even at lower speeds is a must, I have wristguard, knee en elbow pads (but these days I wear motorcycle pants, and jacket that looks like normal clothing) and I love my Giro Switchblade full face helmet, never had a such comfortable helmet before in my life.. and I had a few allready !

cheers

FL

[travsformation]

Full-face helmet arrived today, so good-bye 25km/h limit!

I'll let keep in mind of all the great tips you've given me, and hopefully, common sense will prevail once I jump on the wheel! (It's been raining like mad for 3 days, so all work and no lay makes Jack...CRAZY!)

 

[travsformation]

Looks like I should have inspected the helmet more closely before getting all excited. I ordered an M and they sent me an L... 

Way too much wiggle room, both sideways and up and down...not sure it would protect me much from a faceplant. The chin-guard also hair a fair deal of flex to it, so after retuning it, I think I'm going to get a proper motorcycle helmet , and get it in a physical store where I can try it on.

Damnit! Guess I'm going to have to wait before I can hit Mach1 on the V8...

[meepmeepmayer]

Physical store is a good idea. Unless you buy one of the expensive helmets with switchable inserts, getting the right size can be tricky or even impossible. 80% of people here will choose between M and L, so what if your head is in between?

At least that's the experience I made. My helmet in L was too tight in some spots and hurt, without the thinner inserts there would be no sizing that fits me.

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Physical store is a good idea. Unless you buy one of the expensive helmets with switchable inserts, getting the right size can be tricky or even impossible. 80% of people here will choose between M and L, so what if your head is in between?

At least that's the experience I made. My helmet in L was too tight in some spots and hurt, without the thinner inserts there would be no sizing that fits me.

Yeah, I see what you mean. For some of the cheaper models I looked at, M was size 53-57, and L was 58-61. Those extra inches make a hell of a difference... And since price is an issue (100€ max.), whatever I get isn't going to come with switchable inserts...

I read somewhere that it's not a bad idea to get a helmet that initially feels a bit tight, since the foam eventually compresses and adapts to your head, while an initial perfect fit can mean that later down the road the helmet might be a bit looser than it should

[meepmeepmayer]

I'd rather have a helmet that is a tiny bit too loose than one that is a tiny bit too tight. My first ride with my helmet, it felt tight but ok in the beginning but hurt after 1 hour or two. Now with the thinner inserts, it feels borderline a bit loose compared to the thicker inserts, but doesn't hurt (well, you feel it a tiny bit after 2 hours of riding but no pain).

But I have very limited experience so not sure how correct that is and if long term anything changes

[travsformation]

Thanks! 

[Girth Brooks]

Helmets are not meant to be loose as it makes them ineffective. I will forever take the safety of my head over comfort anytime, but to each their own.

[meepmeepmayer]

There's comfort and there's "too tight, it hurts after a while". It's a fine line We're talking about very small size differences here, not helmets one size too big or so.

[travsformation]

Learned a valuable lesson about the V8 and overload today: I was monitoring current with WheelLog while riding up hills, so I could see at what point the wheel's alarm kicked in (I unlocked it to 30 km/h, so I could be sure the warning I was getting weren't for speed). Overcurrent warning kicks in at about 70-80% current (about "2-3 O'clock" on the current gauge). When I reach that point, the wheel generally gives an acoustic warning and tiltback. As the last hill started to flatten out (and for the sake of science), I decided to accelerate hard (I'd never accelerated that hard on the V8). Current was at about 40-50% (a little before 12 o'clock on the gauge) when I did so, and WheelLog said temperature was 40º. I was going about 15 km/h. No warning, the wheel just shut off and face-forward towards the floor. Good the I caught myself (still don't have the FF-helmet). The wrist and elbow guards did their job wonderfully, but my hip took quite an impact.

I've read several comments stating that Inmotions are some of the safest wheels out there, so I'm glad I did this test. I did accelerate very aggressively on purpose to see how the wheel would react, and that's not something I'd usually do, but this happened by over-accelerating when at 40-50% current, I'm afraid to think of how much more easily this could happen when near top speed, and how little margin there might be in near top-speed situations (going over a bump and landing leaning forward too much, etc.), as you mentioned in a previous comment, @meepmeepmayer.

So if I understood correctly, the safest option would be to apply common sense and not go over maybe 20-25 km/h in bumpy areas, and if I want to ride faster (a 30-35 km/h cruising speed), it would definitely be safer to do so on a wheel with a max. speed of 45-50 km/h, for example, right?

[Jerome]

40 minutes ago, travsformation said:

So if I understood correctly, the safest option would be to apply common sense and not go over maybe 20-25 km/h in bumpy areas, and if I want to ride faster (a 30-35 km/h cruising speed), it would definitely be safer to do so on a wheel with a max. speed of 45-50 km/h, for example, right?

Right!

[travsformation]

Outlet + Black Friday = I was able to get a decent full-face helmet for half the price! (and one that I was able to try on and is actually my size!)

ECE & DOT homologation too   (not that that matters too much, but at least it means it's been tested and approved)

Floor, here I come!