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MRN76

"NineTool" - Increase max speed Ninebot and change model

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MRN76 said:

The A1 / S2 wheel has an idle speed of 45 km / h with a voltage of 62 volts. There is a limit that will not allow the wheel to accelerate to 100% and leaves 25% of power for reserve. You can check the maximum speed depending on the voltage, let's say at 56 volts the idle speed will be 45/62 * 56 = ~ 40 km/h per 25% power reserve 40 * 0.75 = 30 km / h, with such speed you can go on a half-discharged battery ( The limit is like on many wheels, but the ninebot squeezed it tightly in the firmware). I apologize for the translation

That's a pretty useless calculation in itself (and hence a dangerously wrong one), because it only looks at the motor characteristics without load and hence it ignores the power needed to maintain the speed, which is by no means negligible as it depends even stronger on the speed.

Edited by Mono
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In some well-known companies, this is how the maximum speed is calculated.

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6 hours ago, MRN76 said:

In some well-known companies, this is how the maximum speed is calculated.

I understand that the max speed should depend on the voltage, that's perfectly fine. The problem is the above computation of "power reserve". It's just pure fictional non-sense. Now, by changing the max speed from the factory settings you actually violate the formulas used by the engineers of the companies, so the new max speed is not how the max speed is calculated by the well-known company.

Most importantly, the idea that a small increase of the max speed can only make a small decrease of the power reserve is just not true. Not. at. all.

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Posted (edited)

I might take some flames for this...but nonetheless!!!

 

PLEASE, all Be aware of what you are doing here...especially on such wheels like the a1/2 or s1/2 or however it is called!

Yes, the wheel might have an „idle speed“ of 45kmh...but hey, this is without any load on the wheel!!!

So yeah, at 62Volt it might run 45kmh...but if you are ON the wheel and accelerate, the voltage will drop SIGNIFICANTLY down!

So 62Volt WILL drop to 55Volt or even lower if you are on the wheel...and so it will never ever be able to reach 45kmh!

 

So now i feel better...you have been warned....

Edited by US69
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13 hours ago, US69 said:

I might take some flames for this...but nonetheless!!!

 

PLEASE, all Be aware of what you are doing here...especially on such wheels like the a1/2 or s1/2 or however it is called!

Yes, the wheel might have an „idle speed“ of 45kmh...but hey, this is without any load on the wheel!!!

So yeah, at 62Volt it might run 45kmh...but if you are ON the wheel and accelerate, the voltage will drop SIGNIFICANTLY down!

So 62Volt WILL drop to 55Volt or even lower if you are on the wheel...and so it will never ever be able to reach 45kmh!

 

So now i feel better...you have been warned....

I agree 100%, this is just common sense. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/12/2019 at 12:52 AM, US69 said:

So 62Volt WILL drop to 55Volt or even lower if you are on the wheel...and so it will never ever be able to reach 45kmh!

It should be noted though that even without any battery voltage drop one can never reach the idle speed of 45km/h. The torque at idle speed is zero even if we have an unlimited energy source with constant voltage. Under load we run out of reserve torque way before this speed. When this happens depends crucially on the acceleration and it may happen with little or none warning.

Edited by Mono
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On 3/12/2019 at 2:05 PM, Afeez Kay said:

I agree 100%, this is just common sense. 

Yeah, for you and me and other involved euc freaks this is all common sense. But unfortunatly there is only a very small percentage of users knowing all the details of how and why a Euc works as it does. And for all others its „just working“...

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I think a safe way to look at this firmware hack is that it allows us to cruise at around 26kph without tilt-back or beeps.  To ride it at 30kph most of the time is too risky for me, personally.  We know the S1 (two battery version) and S2 are capable of 26kph as Segway sells the same hardware in Europe with that speed limit, but they restrict it to about 18kph for North Americans.  So I see no reason why it is not safe to ride these at around 26kph when the hardware was designed for it, with the luxury of being able to occasionally speed up closer to 30 for overtaking cyclists on the path, provided the battery is above 80% charge just to be a bit more cautious.  That's the way I'm approaching this, anyway. 

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Posted (edited)

Though the point remains: as long as you don't have the current vs speed graphs for this specific wheel including current under load and acceleration you have no idea what the reserve torque at 30km/h is, or how quickly you can accelerate for overtaking at 30km/h and not get an overlean faceplant without any warning, or how deep the pothole can be of which the wheel will still dig you out.

Edited by Mono
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2 minutes ago, Mono said:

Though the point remains: as long as you don't have the current vs speed graphs for this specific wheel including current under load and acceleration you have no idea what the reserve torque at 30km/h is, or how quickly you can accelerate for overtaking at 30km/h and not get an overlean faceplant without any warning, or how deep the pothole can be of which the wheel will still dig you out.

I agree with you that there are some unknowns and more speed equals more risk.  But do you really think an occasional use of an extra few kph over the stock S2 makes so much of a difference as to dramatically increase risk?  I am cruising along at about 25-26kph comfortably and when I do push it slightly higher I accelerate very gently and back off the moment the beeps start.  Factors such as rider weight, wind and incline should be considered too, as they make a considerable impact to what the wheel can cope with and so max speed, aggressiveness of acceleration and riding style must be adjusted accordingly.  My weight is about 68kg and I feel confident in my wheel carrying me at 26kph while having enough reserve torque to keep me up should I hit a bump.  We are talking about only a few kph more than the wheel's stock firmware is set to.  And we know the Segways are built with safety being high on the priority list and that they are conservative with their speed limits.

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1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

But do you really think an occasional use of an extra few kph over the stock S2 makes so much of a difference as to dramatically increase risk?

ehm, yes, of course depending on what we mean by dramatically. If you tend to mix with cars, I think you are more likely to be killed by one of those, as going down at 30km/h will probably not kill you.

1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

I am cruising along at about 25-26kph comfortably and when I do push it slightly higher I accelerate very gently and back off the moment the beeps start.  Factors such as rider weight, wind and incline should be considered too, as they make a considerable impact to what the wheel can cope with and so max speed, aggressiveness of acceleration and riding style must be adjusted accordingly.  My weight is about 68kg and I feel confident in my wheel carrying me at 26kph while having enough reserve torque to keep me up should I hit a bump.  We are talking about only a few kph more than the wheel's stock firmware is set to.  And we know the Segways are built with safety being high on the priority list and that they are conservative with their speed limits.

Apart from accelerating gently to overtake a bicycle doesn't ring a bell here, the parameters are mainly in your favor. Though I don't know about the Segway safety thing and feeling of confidence. I have seen several simple overleans of the Ninebot One, so "built in safety" doesn't help much if the power of the wheel is limited and the customer doesn't care to go faster or accelerate stronger than what the wheel can deal with. If you do understand that the wheel may just silently run out of torque at higher speed and that chances of injury grow drastically with increasing speed, sure, go for it.

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8 hours ago, Mono said:

If you do understand that the wheel may just silently run out of torque at higher speed and that chances of injury grow drastically with increasing speed, sure, go for it.

 I own a nb one c+ as my first wheel, and plan to part with it after the summer for a better one. I have 1000khm on my one c+, first 400 with stock firmware, next 400 with 1.4.3 e+ firmware, and last 200 with 1.4.3 p firmware high speed on. 

I got up to 29 khm/h on it  (tilt-back bug)and I agree with you, there is not enough torque at that speed, the wheel needs my help to balance, a big pot hole would be challenging, it was actually. If I go up a hill I get constant readings of over 1100Watts with no beeps, so there is a problem there also, constantly giving ~1200watts is too much for the c+'s fets. 

Never the less, I have no warnings in my blackbox data for the past 200khm, and as much as I don't really recommend to anyone going that way, I still am very happy that mrn76 gave me the choice. I owe him a beer for the fun offered. Even more, If I manage to part with my c+ before it actually fails on me, I will be owing him a bottle of the finest vodka. :)

 

 

 

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I repeat to all. If you hear the beeps, the wheel does not just issue them. No need to accelerate when they sound. It may be dangerous. And be sure to wear protective gear!

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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 11:06 PM, Mono said:

ehm, yes, of course depending on what we mean by dramatically. If you tend to mix with cars, I think you are more likely to be killed by one of those, as going down at 30km/h will probably not kill you.

Apart from accelerating gently to overtake a bicycle doesn't ring a bell here, the parameters are mainly in your favor. Though I don't know about the Segway safety thing and feeling of confidence. I have seen several simple overleans of the Ninebot One, so "built in safety" doesn't help much if the power of the wheel is limited and the customer doesn't care to go faster or accelerate stronger than what the wheel can deal with. If you do understand that the wheel may just silently run out of torque at higher speed and that chances of injury grow drastically with increasing speed, sure, go for it.

"Of course?"  Is there some evidence you're aware of for the claim that riding at 2-4kph over the stock limit dramatically increases risk of failure due to the wheel not being able to cope with this increase?

Anecdotes of failures on older models do not prove that the most recent Segway branded models are not built with safety in mind.  The Tesla Model S is built with great safety in mind and has been proven to be one of the safest cars on the road, but we can point to incidents in which they have crashed.  I rode the E+ for a year and put so many kilometers on that thing without issue.  Gotways have a bit of a bad reputation for failing due to inadequate wiring gauge and perhaps other build quality issues.  But they are super popular wheels anyway and some people are riding them at 50kph - something I would never think about doing on any self balancing device.

I may be wrong but I don't think you own a Segway S1/S2 and I don't think you have any experience at all with this firmware mod, or running an S2 at 2-4kph higher than what it was built for.  Higher speed equals higher risk, yes.  But I think your scare mongering is a bit over the top.  Every time you get on any EUC there is a risk that the technology may fail you and you may have a very bad day.  I personally don't believe an increase in speed of 2-4kph pushes the wheel beyond its limits, particularly for light weight riders or increases my accident risk enough to make a big fuss about it.

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1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

"Of course?"  Is there some evidence you're aware of for the claim that riding at 2-4kph over the stock limit dramatically increases risk of failure due to the wheel not being able to cope with this increase?

The power of this wheel and the understanding of the limitations of riding an EUC in general. I didn't do an empirical study to investigate the faceplant probability at the speed limit of this wheel, and I didn't do that for any wheel, and I never will. That's for other people to do.

1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

I personally don't believe an increase in speed of 2-4kph pushes the wheel beyond its limits

Right, I am sure that this particular increase in speed does not "push the wheel beyond its limits" under usual circumstances. What it does is that it reduces the safety margin. As I wrote before, go for it if you know what you are doing. Good luck.

 

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@RooMiniPro

I dont agree to much Mono is saying :-) but here he is MORE than right....

That “only 2-4kmh faster” makes a lot....amperage drawn on higher speeds dont go up proportional, in contrary.

Also the mentioned 26kmh semas is not what is designed for this wheel at all. There is a good reason why 9b has limited the wheel for other states.Btw they also limited the max voltage that can be charged...in North america..60V instead of 63V ....brings the max speed even more down then.

 

My guess the only reason why that all worked out for you is your low weight....Just think about weighing 50% more...96kg instead of 64kg...Do you really think this wheel is capable of doing this?

Please dont get me wrong...not meant as personal offending...just as a warning to others before testing such things out.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, US69 said:

@RooMiniProThere is a good reason why 9b has limited the wheel for other states.Btw they also limited the max voltage that can be charged...in North america..60V instead of 63V ....brings the max speed even more down then.

My experience is that the nb1 c/c+/e/e+/p are solid machines, size and construction allows for 25km/h, but I agree with your warnings :)

I just want to comment on the voltage part.

The 60V setup is there because of the EU and China rules, so that it can be considered low voltage, get on airplanes and so on. 

You cannot charge a ninebot one c/e/p at 63 volts. If you reach that limit you can not ride downslope, it won't allow you to store energy for braking, it will tilt back and command you to step down in your first attempt.  That is the reason they provide their machines with a 61 volt charger, which actually goes up to almost 62volts if left for the ballancing period. They leave some room for braking when fully charged, not much, about 300 meters of a semi good downslope will trigger the step down or I will throw you down stage. 

 

Edited by enaon
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11 hours ago, enaon said:

 

The 60V setup is there because of the EU and China rules, so that it can be considered low voltage, get on airplanes and so on. 

You cannot charge a ninebot one c/e/p at 63 volts. If you reach that limit you can not ride downslope, it won't allow you to store energy for braking, it will tilt back and command you to step down in your first attempt.  That is the reason they provide their machines with a 61 volt charger, which actually goes up to almost 62volts if left for the ballancing period. They leave some room for braking when fully charged, not much, about 300 meters of a semi good downslope will trigger the step down or I will throw you down stage. 

 

Yeah, every EUC in the world has this: Dont go Downhill on a 100% full battery….Always ride a bit before doing so. First rule you should learn.

Actually the reason why in the US they go with 60V chargers is/was some law Situation...but has Nothing todo with the "we dont want our wheels full charge".

63 Volt is/would be the correct Voltage. Man, there would be a outcry in the community if every EUC Producer would Limit their Wheel to only 85% charge :-) 

 

Aaah, and btw: Ninebots One C, E plus etc do NOT have a balancing circuitry at all...

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12 hours ago, US69 said:

Also the mentioned 26kmh semas is not what is designed for this wheel at all. There is a good reason why 9b has limited the wheel for other states.Btw they also limited the max voltage that can be charged...in North america..60V instead of 63V ....brings the max speed even more down then.

26 km / h is the official limit. It is written in the native firmware.

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The guys from Spain made a detailed description of the program's capabilities, thank them very much for the work done!

Link

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5 hours ago, US69 said:

Aaah, and btw: Ninebots One C, E plus etc do NOT have a balancing circuitry at all...

:) 

they do have balancing circuitry, they have not populated the external components., but still is able of balancing at very low currents. 

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4 hours ago, enaon said:

:) 

they do have balancing circuitry, they have not populated the external components., but still is able of balancing at very low currents. 

When you think so....

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22 hours ago, US69 said:

My guess the only reason why that all worked out for you is your low weight....Just think about weighing 50% more...96kg instead of 64kg...Do you really think this wheel is capable of doing this?

My weight is 95 kg (with winter clothes and backpack even 110 kg) and riding on modified firmware - thanks to @MRN76 couple of months without any problems. 

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11 hours ago, MRN76 said:

The guys from Spain made a detailed description of the program's capabilities. Thank them very much for the work done!

         Link

That is the best explanation for the NineTool that I have seen.   :efefae4566:

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, US69 said:

Actually the reason why in the US they go with 60V chargers is/was some law Situation...but has Nothing todo with the "we dont want our wheels full charge".63 Volt is/would be the correct Voltage. Man, there would be a outcry in the community if every EUC Producer would Limit their Wheel to only 85% charge :-) 

Are you not from Germany? We have the same directives in the EU as well , under 60v dc for low voltage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Voltage_Directive

I disagree about the correct voltage being 63 volts for a 15s lion battery setup. Going to 4.10 volt looses 10% of capacity per charge, but brings safety in the means of braking ability and doubles the expected charging cycles. I hope other manufacturers are as sensible as ninebot is. 

1487373485_2019-03-285_13_53.png.6dbc20d4535a0574c6671cb11127bd94.png

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Edited by enaon

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