KS-18L and KS-18XL rapid charging

[Daniel Clopton]

I have a little confusion with the charging scheme on the new Kingsongs. I understand that the dual charging port is intended for adding a second stock charger in order to raise the charging rate from the standard 1.5A to a combined 3A. I instead like to buy a single rapid charger that can go up to 5A and plug that into a single port, assuming 5A is a safe upper limit for charging the 18L and 18XL. I know the main concern is overloading the wiring, but it I'm unsure as to how the dual ports are wired. Is it safe to supply 5A to a single charging port, or must the current be split between the two charging ports. Also, is 5A safe for the wiring and batteries, or does Kingsong intend that 3A is the max? Also, does anyone have experience with the Cycle Satiator?

Edited October 28, 2018 by Daniel Clopton
Added another question

[Seba]

Both charging ports are connected in paralell, so you can charge using single port. Cycle Satiator looks nice, but is very expensive. Li-ion batteries doesn't need any intelligent charging other than dumb CC/CV, so why pay 300 bucks for Cycle Satiator if you can get a decent 84V 5A charger with all the functions needed from @Jason McNeil at ehweels.com for just 150$ ?  I use 6A charger and it works great, however I'm using both ports - just because I couldn't find suitable Lenovo power cord with AWG low enough to work with 6A. So I use two cords to balance the load.

[Daniel Clopton]

12 hours ago, Seba said:

Both charging ports are connected in paralell, so you can charge using single port. Cycle Satiator looks nice, but is very expensive. Li-ion batteries doesn't need any intelligent charging other than dumb CC/CV, so why pay 300 bucks for Cycle Satiator if you can get a decent 84V 5A charger with all the functions needed from @Jason McNeil at ehweels.com for just 150$ ?  I use 6A charger and it works great, however I'm using both ports - just because I couldn't find suitable Lenovo power cord with AWG low enough to work with 6A. So I use two cords to balance the load.

Good to know about the ports. I was just concerned about supplying 5A to a single port without knowing the gauge wiring or layout. Agreed about the high cost of that charger. I guess I was just thinking down the road. Already spent $150 on a rapid charger for my V8. Now I'll spend another $150 for a Kingsong rapid charger. If I ever get a Gotway I'll be dropping another $150 for that rapid charger. Tell me again how the Cycle Satiator is more expensive. 

[Seba]

41 minutes ago, Daniel Clopton said:

Already spent $150 on a rapid charger for my V8. Now I'll spend another $150 for a Kingsong rapid charger.

Both V8 and KS18L/XL are 84V wheels (20S), so why buying another charger if the only thing you need is different charging plug?

1. Buy one XLR male plug, two XLR female plugs and one Lenovo-type cable with connector (11 x 4.5mm with pin).
2. Cut the charging cable about 10 cm from charger brick.
3. Solder female XLR to the charger side.
4. Solder one male XLR to remaining Inmotion cable.
5. Solder second male XLR to Lenovo cable, keeping in mind that internal contact of the connector is negative, external is positive (pin is not connected).

Voilla! You've just created one fast charger for both Inmotion V8 and King Song KS18L  And as long as your new Gotway will be 84V wheel, all you need is a third cable made the same way.

[Evel_Knievel]

I charge my KS18S frequently with a cycle satiator at 5A and have never had an issue. One of the KS reps checked with engineering on max charge rate and told me 5A was max for the 18S. I can't imagine them going backwards on the KS18L/XL.

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

Here is a similar discussion started by @Seba 

I was also asking similar questions there the other day.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Jean Dublin

[Daniel Clopton]

7 hours ago, Seba said:

Both V8 and KS18L/XL are 84V wheels (20S), so why buying another charger if the only thing you need is different charging plug?

1. Buy one XLR male plug, two XLR female plugs and one Lenovo-type cable with connector (11 x 4.5mm with pin).
2. Cut the charging cable about 10 cm from charger brick.
3. Solder female XLR to the charger side.
4. Solder one male XLR to remaining Inmotion cable.
5. Solder second male XLR to Lenovo cable, keeping in mind that internal contact of the connector is negative, external is positive (pin is not connected).

Voilla! You've just created one fast charger for both Inmotion V8 and King Song KS18L  And as long as your new Gotway will be 84V wheel, all you need is a third cable made the same way.

The rapid charger for the V8 only goes up to 3A. Do you have a workaround to get it up to 5A?

[Seba]

17 hours ago, Daniel Clopton said:

The rapid charger for the V8 only goes up to 3A. Do you have a workaround to get it up to 5A?

No, but you can use both chargers at the same time - you will get 4.5 A (3 A from rapid charger + 1.5 A from stock KS charger).

[Daniel Clopton]

9 hours ago, Seba said:

No, but you can use both chargers at the same time - you will get 4.5 A (3 A from rapid charger + 1.5 A from stock KS charger).

My goal is to carry fewer things and less weight. I appreciate your advice, but not the method I'd choose. 

[U-Stride]

On 10/28/2018 at 2:26 PM, Seba said:

Both charging ports are connected in paralell, so you can charge using single port. Cycle Satiator looks nice, but is very expensive. Li-ion batteries doesn't need any intelligent charging other than dumb CC/CV, so why pay 300 bucks for Cycle Satiator if you can get a decent 84V 5A charger with all the functions needed from @Jason McNeil at ehweels.com for just 150$ ?  I use 6A charger and it works great, however I'm using both ports - just because I couldn't find suitable Lenovo power cord with AWG low enough to work with 6A. So I use two cords to balance the load.

So can this 84V 5amp Charger be used for the 18XL?

[meepmeepmayer]

38 minutes ago, Jediah Matthew said:

So can this 84V 5amp Charger be used for the 18XL?

Yes.

The only problem is the non-matching plug (GX16-4 vs Lenovo thing, I assume you have the Gotway version, but ewheels also sells the charger with a Lenovo plug fitted). So if you can build an adapter cable (GX16-4 input to Lenovo output), yes, one 5A charger works for 84V Gotways (without adapter) and the 18L/XL (with the adapter).

Someone more knowledgable must say whether such an adapter can be bought somewhere or how exactly to build it. Should be just two plugs connected by thick enough cables. There's a nice picture of the different "ends" on the ewheels site: https://www.ewheels.com/product/ewheels-84-2v-rapid-chargers/

Actually, if @Jason McNeil offered such a adapters, I'm sure a lot of people would like that One charger could be used for a lot of different wheels.

Also here's a thread with more info on the 18L/XL charging:

 

[Jason McNeil]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Someone more knowledgable must say whether such an adapter can be bought somewhere or how exactly to build it. Should be just two plugs connected by thick enough cables. There's a nice picture of the different "ends" on the ewheels site: https://www.ewheels.com/product/ewheels-84-2v-rapid-chargers/

The credit really has to go to Fred from his ChargeDoctors. Eddie mentioned on one of his videos about >8A charging, but considering how slender those 16AWG charging wires are & the potential for something going catastrophically wrong if one of the packs were to develop a problem, 5A seems to be the optimum cross-over between benefit/risk.

Reliability hasn't been all that great on the last batch of chargers. Sticking with the supplier, because 1) they care about making a decent product, 2) willing to learn & improve quality.  

Edited November 12, 2018 by Jason McNeil

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yes.

The only problem is the non-matching plug (GX16-4 vs Lenovo thing, I assume you have the Gotway version, but ewheels also sells the charger with a Lenovo plug fitted). So if you can build an adapter cable (GX16-4 input to Lenovo output), yes, one 5A charger works for 84V Gotways (without adapter) and the 18L/XL (with the adapter).

Someone more knowledgable must say whether such an adapter can be bought somewhere or how exactly to build it. Should be just two plugs connected by thick enough cables. There's a nice picture of the different "ends" on the ewheels site: https://www.ewheels.com/product/ewheels-84-2v-rapid-chargers/

Actually, if @Jason McNeil offered such a adapters, I'm sure a lot of people would like that One charger could be used for a lot of different wheels.

Also here's a thread with more info on the 18L/XL charging:

 

Jason does sell such an adaptor for those who already have a 84V with the standard GX16-4pin.  I got one from him and it works fine with my 18L.  

My understanding of the 18L battery pack is that it uses nickle plates to connect to the charger(BMS).  16guage cables on the charge can handle much more current than 5amps, you just have to google it, comes up with 22amps.  

Keep in mind that the 5Amps you are charging with is spit up into 4 battery packs, so it is a mere 1.25amps per battery pack.  If we are looking at the charge rate in C's, it is 0.35C's.  More than safe.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

The credit really has to go to Fred from his ChargeDoctors. Eddie mentioned on one of his videos about >8A charging, but considering how slender those 16AWG charging wires are & the potential for something going catastrophically wrong if one of the packs were to develop a problem, 5A seems to be the optimum cross-over between benefit/risk.

By "how to build" I meant not confusing the GX-connector pin layout, using thick enough wires, etc. I very much agree with the 5A limitation, on Gotways more is asking for trouble anyways and you rarely need a faster charger for any wheel (and if you do, you can always get an extra one).

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Reliability hasn't been all that great on the last batch of chargers. Sticking with the supplier, because 1) they care about making a decent product, 2) willing to learn & improve quality.  

If you're interested in a possible alternative, look at the chargers being sold on 1radwerkstatt.de (you probably did that already long ago but I figured I should mention it). Also a generic model than can be adapted to different voltages, charging currents, etc, and a bit less fancy (no nice display or control knob), but it exists.

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Jason does sell such an adaptor for those who already have a 84V with the standard GX16-4pin.  I got one from him and it works fine with my 18L.  

Hey that is important (and good) to know! That info is very well hidden on the site (and not to be found on the fast charger page).

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

My understanding of the 18L battery pack is that it uses nickle plates to connect to the charger(BMS).  16guage cables on the charge can handle much more current than 5amps, you just have to google it, comes up with 22amps.  

Keep in mind that the 5Amps you are charging with is spit up into 4 battery packs, so it is a mere 1.25amps per battery pack.  If we are looking at the charge rate in C's, it is 0.35C's.  More than safe.

With pretty much any wheel, cable thickness vs. charging current is the only concern. Batteries are always far below anything interesting, as you did the math for.

[eddiemoy]

40 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

By "how to build" I meant not confusing the GX-connector pin layout, using thick enough wires, etc. I very much agree with the 5A limitation, on Gotways more is asking for trouble anyways and you rarely need a faster charger for any wheel (and if you do, you can always get an extra one).

If you're interested in a possible alternative, look at the chargers being sold on 1radwerkstatt.de (you probably did that already long ago but I figured I should mention it). Also a generic model than can be adapted to different voltages, charging currents, etc, and a bit less fancy (no nice display or control knob), but it exists.

Hey that is important (and good) to know! That info is very well hidden on the site (and not to be found on the fast charger page).

With pretty much any wheel, cable thickness vs. charging current is the only concern. Batteries are always far below anything interesting, as you did the math for.

if charging current and cable thickness is the only concern, then there isn't any there. 16awg can handle 22amps.  i think i mapped our how silly this discussion is considering wires to the battery for charging have to be under 28awg(1.4amps max) to be unable to carry the current to the battery.  frankly i've never seen a 28awg cable.  smallest i've seen are 24awg in twisted pair cable or ethernet cat5/6 cables. 

[Jason McNeil]

18 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

My understanding of the 18L battery pack is that it uses nickle plates to connect to the charger(BMS).  16guage cables on the charge can handle much more current than 5amps, you just have to google it, comes up with 22amps.  

Keep in mind that the 5Amps you are charging with is spit up into 4 battery packs, so it is a mere 1.25amps per battery pack.  If we are looking at the charge rate in C's, it is 0.35C's.  More than safe.

There was an infrared video posted on this forum of a GW charge input cable heating up under a 8A load.

However, the main concern is that while in theory the total pack is capable of accepting a 10A current, there is a chance that one of the cells in a pack will develop a problem, with the full brunt of the charge being directed into one of the 780Wh packs, which would equate to 3A per cell & would rapidly degrade the functional side. 

I really don't think it's wise for KS to state that the Wheel can be charged at 10A. Are they willing to backup this claim with replacement battery packs if the rate of failure is several times higher than normal?
Samsung's own datasheet on this cell has a recommended charge current of just 1,020mA 'For cycle life' & 1.7A in standard charging. What real advantage is there to pushing to envelope to achieve lower charge times when the 5A gives you a decent 1:1 ratio of charge time to high speed ride time.   

https://www.orbtronic.com/content/samsung-35e-datasheet-inr18650-35e.pdf

[US69]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

There was an infrared video posted on this forum of a GW charge input cable heating up under a 8A load.

However, the main concern is that while in theory the total pack is capable of accepting a 10A current, there is a chance that one of the cells in a pack will develop a problem, with the full brunt of the charge being directed into one of the 780Wh packs, which would equate to 3A per cell & would rapidly degrade the functional side. 

I really don't think it's wise for KS to state that the Wheel can be charged at 10A. Are they willing to backup this claim with replacement battery packs if the rate of failure is several times higher than normal?
Samsung's own datasheet on this cell has a recommended charge current of just 1,020mA 'For cycle life' & 1.7A in standard charging. What real advantage is there to pushing to envelope to achieve lower charge times when the 5A gives you a decent 1:1 ratio of charge time to high speed ride time.   

https://www.orbtronic.com/content/samsung-35e-datasheet-inr18650-35e.pdf

I can also just say: Guys, dont be nuts! 

When you want  to use a fast charger, yes, please, but stay on 5-6 Amps max!

There is just no need to discuss charching currents above 0,5 or 1 C! We are not on a Tesla (car) here, which has cooling fluids and all.

When you charge your wheel, 18XL with 5-6 Amps, in 4-5 hours it is total full. That should just be enough and everything is safe!

 

Yes, technically 10Amps are possible...and even if a complete side of a 18XL will fail to charge...3 Amps for a cell on one 780wh side is still about “just” a 1,16C charge...its just that all this can be avoided!

And btw: the 2 packs of each side are connected to each other by a “balancing cable” and in such a case as mentioned, the wheel would block the charge alltogether! 

But again: The only reason i see for such high charges as 10Amp and higher is when you ride a 2400wh Monster and do a 1000mile trip like Speedyfeet...Thats the only reason i see why such a high charge current was actually needed. To keep on with the journey! But for daily purpose? I doubt it :-)

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

I really don't think it's wise for KS to state that the Wheel can be charged at 10A. Are they willing to backup this claim with replacement battery packs if the rate of failure is several times higher than normal?
Samsung's own datasheet on this cell has a recommended charge current of just 1,020mA 'For cycle life' & 1.7A in standard charging. What real advantage is there to pushing to envelope to achieve lower charge times when the 5A gives you a decent 1:1 ratio of charge time to high speed ride time.   

https://www.orbtronic.com/content/samsung-35e-datasheet-inr18650-35e.pdf

Seems to be quite a different chemistry used compared to for example th LG MH1.

As the data sheet just states ~0.3C for charging and ~0.5C for max charging (vs 0.5C and 1C)  and "just" >= 60% capacity after 500 cycles compared to >=70% capacity.

For future recomendations one should always look at the specific datasheet before...

39 minutes ago, US69 said:

Yes, technically 10Amps are possible...and even if a complete side of a 18XL will fail to charge...3 Amps for a cell on one 780wh side is still about “just” a 1,16C charge...its just that all this can be avoided!

I charge my ks16s since the beginning with 8 A (with a "reinforced" plug and wiring). Absolutely no problem noted (till now?)... But there the LG cells were used!

Quote

And btw: the 2 packs of each side are connected to each other by a “balancing cable” and in such a case as mentioned, the wheel would block the charge alltogether! 

I really like the "newer" ninebots with the "intelligent" BMS with the max charge current protection and especially cell voltage difference control.

Preventing/recognizing failed balancing/aged packs would be a nice step forward for all manufacturers!

 

39 minutes ago, US69 said:

Thats the only reason i see why such a high charge current was actually needed

... and convinience ?!. Besides this it improves life cycles if just charged fully before going to a ride (ok, an argument because i can and do it that way...)

And it lets me sleep better - i would never leave a wheel charging over night in my flat...

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chriull

[meepmeepmayer]

Shouldn't every BMS switch off charging if the current is too high?

[Jason McNeil]

8 minutes ago, Chriull said:

I really like the "newer" ninebots with the "intelligent" BMS with the max charge current protection and especially cell voltage difference control.

Preventing/recognizing failed balancing/aged packs would be a nice step forward for all manufacturers!

By shifting a fair quantity Wheels, we get to see reliability on a statistical basis. What's pretty remarkable, is that while KS have a 1-2%/year pack failure rate, the packs from Gotway, with the Panasonic GA, have proven to be perfect, I mean not a single defective cell in well over 1000 of these sold! The Panasonic GAs certainly rule the roost for reliability.   

[Chriull]

5 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

By shifting a fair quantity Wheels, we get to see reliability on a statistical basis. What's pretty remarkable, is that while KS have a 1-2%/year pack failure rate, the packs from Gotway, with the Panasonic GA, have proven to be perfect, I mean not a single defective cell in well over 1000 of these sold! The Panasonic GAs certainly rule the roost for reliability.   

Plus (maybe?) better cell matching and/or better balancing from the Bms?!

[Jason McNeil]

7 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Plus (maybe?) better cell matching and/or better balancing from the Bms?!

Could be, but whatever is going on inside there, it's working pretty effectively. A lot of Customers are doing partial-charging, where charge cycle is not entering the CV phase. I think this demonstrates the whole perfectly balanced cell thing doesn't really matter all that much if the cell voltage remains below <4.1v.    

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jason McNeil

[eddiemoy]

Cell balancing isn’t much of a problem in our application.  We don’t pull all that much amps.  Where cell balance comes into play is when packs like Lipo designed to do 25-100C discharge rate then balance is a huge  concern.  Here it is not really an issue with Max draw I’ve seen around 5C for very short burst.  Short as in split seconds.  

I don’t have the need to charge at 10amps as I don’t ever ride more than my pack can provide per day.  So overnight charging is fine for me.  Again, 3amps per cell/pack isn’t all that much.  Still under 1C.  If you are doing 3amps per pack, you are pulling 18amps for the XL and 12amps for the 18L.  

The quick charger adjust current based on state of charge.  So when the battery is closer to empty, will charge faster at 5amps, but when it is closer to full, will drop below 5 amps   

For the packs that have issues, better to fail on charge than to fail on operating.  

 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

By shifting a fair quantity Wheels, we get to see reliability on a statistical basis. What's pretty remarkable, is that while KS have a 1-2%/year pack failure rate, the packs from Gotway, with the Panasonic GA, have proven to be perfect, I mean not a single defective cell in well over 1000 of these sold! The Panasonic GAs certainly rule the roost for reliability.   

I love getting objective data like this. Feeling good about my Gotway wheels 

[Nic]

Cell balancing is extremely important, particularly if you fully charge and discharge your battery pack. If your cells are not balanced this can lead to overcharging and over-discharging of some cells which in turn causes further degradation. This is why battery packs include a BMS and temperature sensor so as to avoid fire. The best thing you can do to avoid problems is to stop charging once 90% charge is reached and don't run your pack down below 10% charge. This gives you a safety margin of 10% capacity for unbalanced cells. Never leave lithium batteries charging unattended. Yes, its unlikely that you will have a fire, but its not worth the risk.