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Jesse T

New rider question about posture

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7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Turning on 30+ degrees downhill? Going down 40 degree inclines? :blink: As a new rider? I don't even know what to say... are you sure it's degrees? Even percentages would be crazy, but degrees! That can't quite be true. The world's steepest road is like 19° or so. I'm assuming your numbers are in % and still overblown (the world's steepest road is still like 35% so...):efee47c9c8:

Hmmm....I based the angles on these:

30agh7a.jpg 

5k23ic.jpg

Maybe there's a subjective component at play and they seem steeper than they are, but so you get an idea, by car, you have to go up a lot of them in 1st gear, and when it rains, with my RV I often get a fair bit of wheel slide (on asphalt) when going up some of them.

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Could you make a few pictures of these hills? I just want to see that! Pics or it didn't happen:efee47c9c8:

Until I can take and upload the pics, as a reference, most of them are at least as steep as this initial hill @Marty Backe tackles here.

If it's of any indication, this is from a short, 3.5 km ride:

348hv9x.jpg

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

EUCs are only so strong, and a V8 is only so strong.

Yeah, I'd probably do well to keep that in mind...

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

On my ACM, I put the feet to the front and then put all the weight on the back edge of the pedal (so the heel is directly over the end of the pedal and can push fully). That works nicely, no wheel grabbing.

Thanks! Will definitely try that!

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Seems like in hindsight the MCM5 would be the ideal wheel for you. If you need one thing, it's torque, torque, torque.

Yeah, you definitely have a point....the V8 might not have been the best choice for this kind of terrain...

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You know, sometimes that's just the logical thing to do! Not tackling some hills. Like for 30+° hills. For any rider.

:efefb6a84e: :whistling:

 

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd say it's a indication of a crazy steep hill and nothing more.

It happens when braking on flat surfaces too from time to time

Edited by travsformation
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5 hours ago, existensil said:

Could be either, or both, or some combination of those factors and your feet placement. Finding the perfect tire pressure for your wheel and your riding style, finding the right feet placement, and getting better will all reduce your wobbles while braking.

Thanks! Will work on feet-pedal placement, hadn't factored that in. Should probably also weight myself with all my gear on too. The chart that someone posted on tire pressures is a good guide to follow, right?

And if I understand correctly, too much pressure = wobbling, instability, harder to ride, too little pressure = slower, harder to turn, etc...?

I guess it's just a matter of trial and error, and ride, ride, RIIIIDE !!!!

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@travsformation Looking forward to the pictures:efee8319ab: Maybe do an own thread like "My crazy hill routes" or so where people can talk about high-incline riding.

Not sure about wobble when braking, but I'd say it's a combination of the regular beginner/unrelaxed wobbles and then thin shape of the V8.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@travsformation Looking forward to the pictures:efee8319ab: Maybe do an own thread like "My crazy hill routes" or so where people can talk about high-incline riding.

Or "Idiot learns to ride on crazy hill routes" :efefa6edcf:  I could even make a Youtube channel, it might even go viral and help cover my for all the lost work while I'm in hospital! :efee612b4b: (good thing we have free, universal healthcare here in Spain...)

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13 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

On my ACM, I put the feet to the front and then put all the weight on the back edge of the pedal (so the heel is directly over the end of the pedal and can push fully). That works nicely, no wheel grabbing.

Went for a 20km ride today (day 6) and placing my feet as you said helped A LOT. No (or hardly no) wheel grabbing on steep downhills. Feet placement definitely plays a larger role (at least with my level and on this kind of terrain) than I thought. Thanks to you and @existensil for the tips! Felt much more confident and in control riding today. :thumbup:

13 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Could you make a few pictures of these hills? I just want to see that! Pics or it didn't happen:efee47c9c8:

@meepmeepmayer As promised:

52l8bn.jpg

2cx6d88.jpg

2qajrd0.jpg

acsj5y.jpg

15gw55k.jpg

29cvs7q.jpg

And the hill to rule them all, responsible for my wheel-grabbing:

257oqdk.jpg 

What do you think? ;)  When looking for the world's steepest roads they surely didn't take into account the roads in badly planned Spanish suburban neighbourhoods built on mountain sides :efee612b4b:

And on a scale from 1 to 10, rate how much you think I'm (over)stressing my V8, and how nuts you think I am for learning to ride here :efee612b4b: 

Edited by travsformation
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32 minutes ago, travsformation said:

As promised:

(pics)

What do you think? ;)  When looking for the world's steepest roads they surely didn't take into account the roads in badly planned Spanish suburban neighbourhoods built on mountain sides :efee612b4b:

Ok, that's 15-20%, maybe even 25% in some spots. Still very steep for a EUC. It always looks much flatter in pictures than it is in crazy real life.

Except for that last one - holy ****! 30%? More? Who thought it was a good idea to build that? Does Barcelona get snow? I hope not:efee8319ab:

37 minutes ago, travsformation said:

And on a scale from 1 to 10, rate how much you think I'm (over)stressing my V8, and how nuts you think I am for learning to ride here :efee612b4b: 

10/10 - I'm surprised the V8 does even the flatter hills without problems so well. Especially going up. EUCs are stronger than one thinks, even the weaker ones. And I'm impressed by the electronics not dying or overheating/warning.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if your one buttplant might have been the wheel simply switching off due to overload.

And 8/10 madman points for the latter (and a full 10/10 for the last hill):efee47c9c8: You must be a fast learner. Also how did you manage to not bang up your wheel like crazy?

Riding steep inclines is so fun, though. Going up feels like in an effortless elevator, and going down is also a nice challenge.

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9 hours ago, travsformation said:

Maybe there's a subjective component at play and they seem steeper than they are, but so you get an idea, by car, you have to go up a lot of them in 1st gear, and when it rains, with my RV I often get a fair bit of wheel slide (on asphalt) when going up some of them.

There are smartphone apps around that can measure inclination, if you want to be sure. I have been using MultiClinometer on Android for that.

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8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Still very steep for a EUC. It always looks much flatter in pictures than it is in crazy real life.

Yeah, they're a hell of a lot more intimidating in real life....the fact you can actually appreciate how steep they are in the photos says a lot too...

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Except for that last one - holy ****! 30%? More? Who thought it was a good idea to build that? Does Barcelona get snow? I hope not:efee8319ab:

I know, that one's insane, cars even get wheel-spin there on rainy days (as you can easily guess, that's where I had my butt-plant). And there are several others just like it (one with a 90º turn halfway down, I actually scraped a pedal there). To be honest, I don't think much thinking went into planning this neighbourhood... :efee612b4b:

Luckily, snow is a rare occurrence, but it did snow last year and...man, was I glad I drive a 4WD! (ice would be a disaster, I don't think any kind of studded tires would help get you up/down some of these hills in one piece...)

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

10/10 - I'm surprised the V8 does even the flatter hills without problems so well. Especially going up. EUCs are stronger than one thinks, even the weaker ones. And I'm impressed by the electronics not dying or overheating/warning.

I'm a fairly light rider, but all the same...I'm starting to realise how tough this is on my wheel. I try to pick up speed before hills so I don't stress it too much, but some of them are several km long, so I'm guessing I am overstressing the poor wheel quite a bit anyway. So far it's holding up well (almost a week, yay! :efee612b4b:), but today I did get several warning signs. In some occasions, I'd simply get tiltback with no audio warning, and in others I got both, in which case I slowed down or reduced acceleration. None of the warnings were for overload though (according to the Inmotion app's sound scheme). 

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And 8/10 madman points for the latter (and a full 10/10 for the last hill):efee47c9c8:

:efee612b4b: :efee612b4b: :efee612b4b: Now that I think about it, I actually went down the last hill on day 4, only two days after I'd learned to ride in a straight line...so I'm guessing that's probably an 11/10 for stupidity... :eff05cf9bc: :D

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You must be a fast learner. Also how did you manage to not bang up your wheel like crazy?

To be honest, I've only had two falls: one the first time I tried to mount the wheel without a fence and the overload-caused buttplant. The other times I just jumped off the wheel and caught it with the leash before it fell on its side (one of those times leading to an injury, thanks to the leash... :efee612b4b: ) Until I felt comfortable enough on the wheel (yesterday) I tried not to go past jogging speed to be on the safe side...(not sure whether I should be using the word "safe" given my learning style... :efefb6a84e: ). Now my greatest challenge is not to get overconfident because of lack of falling or I foresee a nasty fall in the near future...

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Riding steep inclines is so fun, though. Going up feels like in an effortless elevator, and going down is also a nice challenge.

Yeah, it's awesome! I haven't fully mastered my V8 yet but I can already sense that it won't be long until I outgrow it...something more powerful would definitely come in handy where I live...And I'm sure experienced riders like yourself on a fast wheel would have a blast here!

P.S. I think I'm going to start my "learning on crazy hills" thread, as you suggested...I think I've posted enough off-topic comments on this thread... :efefb6a84e: :efee612b4b:

Edited by travsformation
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5 hours ago, Mono said:

There are smartphone apps around that can measure inclination, if you want to be sure. I have been using MultiClinometer on Android for that.

That'll definitely come in handy, thanks!

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Those are some seriously intimidating hills. Learning to ride there is going to prepare you for anything.

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15 hours ago, Mono said:

There are smartphone apps around that can measure inclination

Like, sexually?  

Because I caught my nephew wearing my wife's heels the other day and I'm not really sure if I should talk to the pastor yet or if it's just clowning around ...

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On 11/2/2018 at 2:53 PM, Jesse T said:

so im at a place now with my riding i can go in a line sometimes turn and go all the way back.. but damn i am shakey and using my legs to turn the wehel back and forth in a fairly uncontrolled manor

i think im on the right track?  but i also feel like my legs and CORE def need to be stronger for this.   does this sound right for this stage it has been about a week now of practice and when i see pro riders they  seem very stable and not even hugging the bike with legs... i feel bad that i think im hugging it with my legs to balance vs actually just balancing ( its more 50 50 ) but i def need more work.  trying to be sure i stand up staright to find that center of gravity as i fear im bending forward without realizing

hopefully im on the right track to figuring this out ?

Hey @Jesse T,

A week on - how are you getting on?!

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GDay, first post to this forum (any forum actually, an achievement for a 35 year old bloke?) after discovering it just a couple of days ago and having ridden for a few months now. 

This is almost the perfect thread though. My knee reconstruction is next week. Its hilly here and Im heavy, 115kg heavy. I have just learned to ride on a ninebot s2 and now have the v8, and I power it up and down hills daily, done about 450kms so far. Minus an acl and mcl and a flap of cartilage in my left knee. Oh and my partner is a physio therapist, very handy indeed under the circumstances! Despite the injury, she is a very keen advocate too and we actually use the wheel as a part of my rehab (now prehab for surgery) as incentive and for actual exercises. Ive also got a reputation at the hospital for turning up to scans and appointments on my "gizmo" (were a bit slow to catch up with things down here:).

My best advice for learning is to relax! all the pains go away as you learn the next method, after each "ah!" moment. Im still at the stage where my feet ache after a time but it goes away after a bit of stamping, my knee is held together with a brace, and 4 months of this and Im riding waaaay better than walking.

As a heavy bloke and clumsy tradie and rugby player, I can sympathise with the difficulties that Jesse was having, and I hope he hasnt dropped off because he lost interest or injured himself! But the advice of using the hips, or core, to steer and control speed is perfect! I first thought that SEGWAY meant speed up n slow down with your feet right? But after I fugured that out it got much better and I dont have the big man's fear of faceplant anymore. Its not even a lean unless your gunning it or slamming the breaks. And arms down! youre very top-heavy with your arms up and your wobbles are exaggerated.

Im hoping for a bit of a scolding/backlash here. 115kg (dont get me started on stones or pounds??), learned to ride on a 500w S2, hilly area, injured, "upgrades" to 800w v8 (pre-awesome sale on Gearbest), continues riding hard in hilly area... LOVES IT and has no plans to stop:) I dont get the wobbles on the hills but theres the *wince* grind when Ive taken it too hard.

p.s. Where are all the aussies here? Im just not used to being the first to have or do anything. no community down this way yet...?

 

 

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Maybe dingoes stole them?

Welcome Elzilcho.  I'm big too, and yup, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Good luck in your riding.  It sounds like you already have some injuries to be extra careful about.  Hopefully you are wearing appropriate padding, just in case.  Sooner or later, it seems, those "just in cases" do seem to crop up!

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18 hours ago, Elzilcho said:

Oh and my partner is a physio therapist

So is mine! Definitely handy! 

BTW, I'm about to start a thread relating my first week of learning how to ride an EUC in a very hilly area. If you're interested, maybe you could contribute some advice for novices and steep hills :)

As it goes, I also have a V8, and would be interested in knowing how well it's holding up on that kind of terrain and if you're having any issues (overload, etc). 

If you're interested, I'll tag you when I post the thread :)

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52 minutes ago, Elzilcho said:

Thanks Ding:)

heads up that snakes ate all the dingos ages ago! Even still, Im pretty sure the EUC riders would be the last to go cos we can outrun the mongrels right?

Now that I think of it weve had 2 near misses with brown snakes already this season and its only like a coupla weeks in...

Yeah bigger they are harder they fall.. dont even need to be moving at the time. So I was teaching the gf how to ride her new airwheel, explaining that I thought (with my 6 weeks or so experience) that the most important concept is stopping. My theory is that it should be drilled in to you to stop in an emergency or uncertainty rather than panicking and *unknown* such as bailing or stepping off while moving. The laws here are grey and the first runaway wheel to shoot in to traffic and burn will NOT go down well, and I dont want anyone hurting themselves of course. So she wanted to keep riding but I was bored with the tennis court and standing with one leg on the ground and the other one doing a back and forward thingy with the wheel. it kinda slipped a little and went sideways so i tried to bring it back with my toe.... so when *unknown* stop, right? nope, trying to drag it back with your toe on auto pilot ACTUALLY powers it away from u (duh) and cos it was sideways 90 degrees to the orientation of the standing knee that just buckled sideways with a really graphic sprooooingtwangsnap that Ive never experienced in my years of rugby, skating, cycling, fightin etc. She had no idea what had happened cos there was no crash, just the idiot alarm goin off and everyone in the neighborhood looking at me on the ground. That idiot alarm definitely works, everyone knows instantly :)

So hospital trip and knee reconstruction in a week and not even a crash story. The EUC equivalent of shooting off your own trigger finger or nailing your own hand to the wall. SO proud:)

Its only cemented my obsession of these amazing little devices though and Im pursuing the option of importing and selling (spoken to IM and GW so far, Ninebot r hard to get a hold of), and improving my riding skills tenfold with missing major ligaments has been very interesting and informative, I honestly feel I could teach a one legged peasant from the dark ages after the experience Ive gained and careful positioning etc.

I have had way worse accidents on bikes and what you can do to yourself from being tangled in a metal frame is sickening, also you have a wheel and handle bars in front of you, meaning they are already around a corner before you can see around it, and with an EUC, youre not only higher but can see around corners first. Ive had the wheel stop dead in sand and from clipping a curb, both at full speed, but even crippled I ran out of it with nothing but a little more experience. Cant do that on a bike (admittedly I wouldnt have crashed it, but yknow)

These things are safe if used properly, safer than a car or bike for pedestrians if you are an idiot, and so practical and fun that its outright a travesty that noone here knows what they are and assumes they run on bunyip magic.....

be safe and remember a motor is stronger than meat, but these things are the future for sure and the possibilities for new electric ridables is huuuge. Its a real upsetting thought that I cant ride for months after the operation, I think thats the only sympathy Im looking for, just learn from my mistake! I wonder if anyone else has done this and is just to embarrassed to admit it? ;) 

:shock2:

That's about all I have to say :huh:

I hope you have a speedy recovery. I haven't had such a serious injury, but I've had a couple very painful episodes from very slow speed wheels.

Edited by Marty Backe
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43 minutes ago, travsformation said:

So is mine! Definitely handy! 

BTW, I'm about to start a thread relating my first week of learning how to ride an EUC in a very hilly area. If you're interested, maybe you could contribute some advice for novices and steep hills :)

As it goes, I also have a V8, and would be interested in knowing how well it's holding up on that kind of terrain and if you're having any issues (overload, etc). 

If you're interested, I'll tag you when I post the thread :)

Mate, knowing the specs, this thing is bloody amazing!! Im not as hilly as your town is, but I live in the adelaide hills, where they meet the beach. Im painfully aware at all times that Im officially overloading the wheel and that my leg aint in good condition to deal with an actual accident, but I figure Im already booked in for the surgery right? (jokes!)

Before I bought the v8, still riding the teeny ninebot, I did my research and decided on a v10 or kingsong for the extra power then sat watching all sites for a sale that never came, so I went for an amazingly priced v8 (reeeal tight budget, ditched labouring and gone back to uni) and swore to be careful.

But mate I would be careful if only it would show some sign of difficulty!!! The alarms work fine but its only the max speed and once or twice overcharge from going straight down a huge hill fresh from a full charge that has ever gone off. Seriously blows my mind and the mind of anyone I ride past that this teeny wheel can keep performing as it does. I am NOT gentle with it, I ride like Im surfing and expect the ground to be all wet n soft but it just keeps going. Im not telling anyone else to try this but its really, really impressive! Im keen on a v10 of v10f asap (ages away, still paying off the first 2) despite any fire risk. If these things werent powerful enough to store that much energy, then they wouldnt work! its about the same energy per weight as gasoline so its a no brainer that its safer than that also, harder to spill, can smoke next to it etc, weve learned to treat it with respect over the years so time to adjust to the next thing...

There are now three V8s in my household of three people. ( also one ninebot, two airwheels)

Im keen to see/be a part of your thread, I can definitely relate :D 

Also has your partner seen the value of the wheel as a training/rehab tool? Mine is seriously getting good at coming up with targeted exercise on it for me, and her too. another thread in the making...? 

Anyway cheers again, sorry to write essays but I am procrastinating from exam study and its great to finally have folks I can talk to about it without explaining what it is and denying people "having a shot" the whole time... :D

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10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

:shock2:

That's about all I have to say :huh:

I hope you have a speed recovery. I haven't had such a serious injury, but I've had a couple very painful episodes from very slow speed wheels.

Cheers, appreciate it! yeah its entirely my own fault. Years ago I did some work with my father repairing industrial machines that were out of commission after maiming someone so I guess its all in perspective once u know what spinning torque can do and Im relieved that it was on my own terms and not slaving away. Also lots of hard work over the years and repeated injuries, at least now its an accident and insurance covers it. Yes, I do recommend insurance. after this anyway :)

I do have lots to say about posture btw, sorry to derail the topic, had lots of careful advice and experience now. but relaxing is the best advice, seriously!

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@Elzilcho Yeah, it's pretty impressive! Other users have suggested I'm overloading the crap out of the V8 and should have gone with something more powerful/with more torque, but I'm amazed how well it performs, and it hasn't given me any indications that I'm overstressing it, exept slowing down on the steeper uphills, speed alarms, one overload warning on a downhill at 100% battery, and a mysterious, probably overload-related switch-off (leading to a buttplant) with no warning whatsoever (hasn't happened since) :confused1:

I am actually pretty gentle with it, or cautious at least. I try to pick up momentum before going up hills, but realize that I'm stressing it anyway by the time I'm halfay up. Maybe the trick is just MORE speed and MORE momentum (kamikaze-style riding?)

I'll definitely tag you in the upcoming "idiot with a death wish learns to ride on massive hills" post :efee612b4b:

As to my physical therapist partner using the wheel for rehab, she hadn't thought of that, but is keen to learn, so I'll definitely bring it up, thanks for the idea! And about the "thread in the making", she walked me through the biodynamics of riding an EUC, so I'm working on a thread with warm-up and stretching exercises to prevent/reduce posture-related stress that can make certain (non-impact) injuries more likely/worse. I'll tag you in that one too (when I eventually get round to turning my sketchy notes into a compehensible post), it could be handy for preventing further injuries after rehab. It would be cool if you could log and use your rehab experience using the wheel to start a thread that tackles EUCs and physical therapy from the that angle. :)

BTW, try to at least not screw up your good leg pre-op! And I hope you have a quick recovery and are back on your wheel soon!

P.S. No worries about writing essay posts, I'm a procrastinator too! :efee8319ab:

 

Edited by travsformation
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On 11/10/2018 at 1:27 AM, Elzilcho said:

GDay, first post to this forum (any forum actually, an achievement for a 35 year old bloke?) after discovering it just a couple of days ago and having ridden for a few months now. 

This is almost the perfect thread though. My knee reconstruction is next week. Its hilly here and Im heavy, 115kg heavy. I have just learned to ride on a ninebot s2 and now have the v8, and I power it up and down hills daily, done about 450kms so far. Minus an acl and mcl and a flap of cartilage in my left knee. Oh and my partner is a physio therapist, very handy indeed under the circumstances! Despite the injury, she is a very keen advocate too and we actually use the wheel as a part of my rehab (now prehab for surgery) as incentive and for actual exercises. Ive also got a reputation at the hospital for turning up to scans and appointments on my "gizmo" (were a bit slow to catch up with things down here:).

My best advice for learning is to relax! all the pains go away as you learn the next method, after each "ah!" moment. Im still at the stage where my feet ache after a time but it goes away after a bit of stamping, my knee is held together with a brace, and 4 months of this and Im riding waaaay better than walking.

As a heavy bloke and clumsy tradie and rugby player, I can sympathise with the difficulties that Jesse was having, and I hope he hasnt dropped off because he lost interest or injured himself! But the advice of using the hips, or core, to steer and control speed is perfect! I first thought that SEGWAY meant speed up n slow down with your feet right? But after I fugured that out it got much better and I dont have the big man's fear of faceplant anymore. Its not even a lean unless your gunning it or slamming the breaks. And arms down! youre very top-heavy with your arms up and your wobbles are exaggerated.

Im hoping for a bit of a scolding/backlash here. 115kg (dont get me started on stones or pounds??), learned to ride on a 500w S2, hilly area, injured, "upgrades" to 800w v8 (pre-awesome sale on Gearbest), continues riding hard in hilly area... LOVES IT and has no plans to stop:) I dont get the wobbles on the hills but theres the *wince* grind when Ive taken it too hard.

p.s. Where are all the aussies here? Im just not used to being the first to have or do anything. no community down this way yet...?

 

 

There seem to be a lot of aussies in the forum, but if you hover the cursor over each profile you will see that a lot of them haven't been visiting the forum lately.  https://forum.electricunicycle.org/search/?&type=core_members&joinedDate=any&group[4]=1&group[11]=1&group[15]=1&group[14]=1&group[18]=1&group[17]=1&group[19]=1&group[12]=1&group[6]=1&group[3]=1&group[20]=1&group[16]=1&group[13]=1&group[21]=1&core_pfield_6=australia

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Hahaha  well I can represent while theyre all slacking:P

@travsformation, I think kamikaze technically means that youre lining things up to run down with your vehicle and to hell with the consequences (fiery explosions?), so if youre aiming at your open front door and not the cars and pedestrians that youve mentioned earlier... sounds good to me! :D I tend to go slow up the hills, but now that I think of it I usually overtake the girls and cyclists and sometimes cars, so maybe Im not really being that gentle. But it just keeps going stroooong!

Im terrible for documenting things and borderline computer illiterate (theres just so much sun and surf and scenery that I struggle to stay indoors long enough) but Im back on the wagon so to speak and catching up again, and Im keen to start interacting online. Thats a long way of saying "sounds like a great idea, I hope I can give it a crack!" It is a great idea, and Im stoked (happy) that your partner sees the merit and is keen to learn, sounds like shes on to it! Megan saw the possibilities as soon as she had a go n realised the core and posture aspects, shes got me balancing like a ballerina now and she can even hold a straight face while I do it :) 

Oh yeah! Speaking of idiots learning to ride on hills and with injuries, my 70 year old father has just had his second hip replacement and wants a wheel real bad. And just try n talk him out of it! He lives deeper in the hills than me. As nervous as that makes me, it might be another thread in the making?:innocent1:. hes seen how hard and painful it is for me to walk, especially hills, and just foams at the mouth every time I effortlessly rock up at his place on the wheel with just a knee brace holding it all together.

When we were kids we went skiing every year and in all that time he never did learn to stay upright for more than a few metres... Do I nag like my mother would have or do I encourage the old fart? yolo or something.....?

p.s. what thread is this again? anyways better back to bivalve respiration and ecological genetics. longing for the day we all have HUDs and can study as we ride.... :dribble:The latest form of "natural" selection maybe...?

 

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