First Impressions & Photos of the KS18XL

[US69]

16 minutes ago, hal2000 said:

I like the range comparison:

18L - 105km

18XL - ~100

These numbers are extremely entertaining.

: )

Yes, sure......

Its allways funny to see „range announcements“ on any kind of wheel.

Whoever had some experience on driving EUCs knows that the range depends such heavily on weight of rider, speed, driving characteristics, weather, temperature, and what else not, so that any producers range annoucements are on laboratory setups, like 65kg rider, driving 20kmh steadily without any winds at a perfect battery temperature and at best on a belt....

Realistic are consumptions from 10/12 to 20/22wh  for one km. So in bad conditions i would say 50km for 18L\ 80km for 18XL..

And in best conditions 80km for 18L and 130 for the XL.

So comparisons are nearly not possible as long it is not the same rider on same ride on same day doing the exact same thing.

And that does not only go for KS wheels!

My 2 cents.....

[Lutalo]

11 hours ago, Pyrolupus said:

In my youth, I regularly carried much heavier hay bales and bags of feed on my farm. I'm not a young man any more, but these wheels are still lighter than a bale of alfalfa hay or a couple of bags of molasses corn feed. ;-) (The top-end GotWays, on the other hand... Just, no.   )

 

See,  you got that farm boy strength. I got that fundamentally sedentary with forced activity at the gym strength. Farm boy strength is live-strong. Gym strength is look-strong.?

[hal2000]

11 hours ago, US69 said:

Yes, sure......

Its allways funny to see „range announcements“ on any kind of wheel.

Whoever had some experience on driving EUCs knows that the range depends such heavily on weight of rider, speed, driving characteristics, weather, temperature, and what else not, so that any producers range annoucements are on laboratory setups, like 65kg rider, driving 20kmh steadily without any winds at a perfect battery temperature and at best on a belt....

Realistic are consumptions from 10/12 to 20/22wh  for one km. So in bad conditions i would say 50km for 18L\ 80km for 18XL..

And in best conditions 80km for 18L and 130 for the XL.

So comparisons are nearly not possible as long it is not the same rider on same ride on same day doing the exact same thing.

And that does not only go for KS wheels!

My 2 cents.....

Sure. I was just trying to point out that they are getting more realistic in their unrealistic claims showing more range in 18L's specs than in 18XL's  : )

[Lutalo]

18 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

cannot take my 18L on the bus, as the seats are closer. My 16S is fine on busses though.

When I ride the bus or subway I have to sit in one of the handicapped accessible chairs to fit my 18L in front of me. Crowding, of course enhances discomfort. 

Compared to other types of devices the 18L is highly portable,  but compared to smaller wheels not so much.  

[U-Stride]

On 10/26/2018 at 11:24 AM, Jason McNeil said:

Had an update from Tina last evening: the body panel screws, that are prone to stripping, are being replaced with higher grade steel. The production 18XLs will be using CST tires, KS's assessment is that there's a hierarchy of tire quality (from highest to lowest)  CST, Kenda, & Chao yang last on the list. As others have noted, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that, the manufacturers use different compounds & treads, which have different properties, but it does seem that CST has the superior longevity.

For the battery pack, I've seen a couple pictures where there's a strip of silicon applied between the cells; I'd like to see more, where all the cells are completely entombed in pond of protective silicon; not yet finalized, should have more information over the weekend. KS will be using the Samsung 35E cells in the XL. 

Retractable handle will look the same as the 18L (but in black), the durability improvements are inside, to the locking pins & latch joints. 

Yes, the new pedal will be interchangeable with all existing KS products. I'm going to be flying in a couple dozen sets next week.

Brushed up the deposit ordering page, now accepting deposits on the XL. If all goes to plan, we should be shipping out the first Wheels by air in about 2 weeks from today.  
https://www.ewheels.com/product/preorder-inmotion-vx-v10-vx10-ks-18l-ninebot-z6-z8-z10/

Note: I've been really impressed with the way Tina has brought about positive change at King Song, she has worked tirelessly to push through Customer/Distributor suggestions to improve the products.   

 

[U-Stride]

On 10/26/2018 at 7:03 PM, US69 said:

Yes, sure......

Its allways funny to see „range announcements“ on any kind of wheel.

Whoever had some experience on driving EUCs knows that the range depends such heavily on weight of rider, speed, driving characteristics, weather, temperature, and what else not, so that any producers range annoucements are on laboratory setups, like 65kg rider, driving 20kmh steadily without any winds at a perfect battery temperature and at best on a belt....

Realistic are consumptions from 10/12 to 20/22wh  for one km. So in bad conditions i would say 50km for 18L\ 80km for 18XL..

And in best conditions 80km for 18L and 130 for the XL.

So comparisons are nearly not possible as long it is not the same rider on same ride on same day doing the exact same thing.

And that does not only go for KS wheels!

My 2 cents.....

I see where you’re coming from with the range. However, I’ve gotten the exact or more range on my Tesla 1020. I would really love to test this 60mile Range of the KS18XL and I’m not a huge range guy. I mean the wheel feels so comfortable that’s I wouldn’t mind giving a nice long aggressive riding test. 

[Cutiyo]

@Footloose.., The larger pedals will be an after marker for the 18L. When the XL roll out in December sometime is when KS will offer them for the L.

[Jason McNeil]

Another small improvement to the list with the XL: on the 18L found the headlight beam angle is too high, I quote Tina:  "We have adjusted light angle a little bit in newest 18L, have you checked with the 18XL sample, you may notice it is little bit better than 18L." 

[US69]

4 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Another small improvement to the list with the XL: on the 18L found the headlight beam angle is too high, I quote Tina:  "We have adjusted light angle a little bit in newest 18L, have you checked with the 18XL sample, you may notice it is little bit better than 18L." 

i can confirm that, as i just got a brandnew 18L with black, improved trolley, new mudflap and new LED frontlight!

The Light is brigther and has a new heatsink, also the angle is better and not blending that much.

But to be honest,  a bright light on a EUC will never be totally perfect, because the pedals -and so the light beam- are moving on acceleration, braking and curving, so you will never ever have a totally perfect light beam as long as the light isnt gyro steered, too!

But yeah...it is really, really good on the latest 18L/XL!

[Lutalo]

17 minutes ago, US69 said:

27 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Another small improvement to the list with the XL: on the 18L found the headlight beam angle is too high, I quote Tina:  "We have adjusted light angle a little bit in newest 18L, have you checked with the 18XL sample, you may notice it is little bit better than 18L." 

i can confirm that, as i just got a brandnew 18L with black, improved trolley, new mudflap and new LED frontlight!

Congrats, Ulf.

[US69]

8 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Congrats, Ulf.

Thanks a lot...

More infos on the Facebook Kingsong groups ;-)

 

[Purplecycle]

On 11/1/2018 at 11:09 PM, US69 said:

i can confirm that, as i just got a brandnew 18L with black, improved trolley, new mudflap and new LED frontlight!

The Light is brigther and has a new heatsink, also the angle is better and not blending that much.

But to be honest,  a bright light on a EUC will never be totally perfect, because the pedals -and so the light beam- are moving on acceleration, braking and curving, so you will never ever have a totally perfect light beam as long as the light isnt gyro steered, too!

But yeah...it is really, really good on the latest 18L/XL!

Glad to hear of all these improvements!

About the light -- I agree with you. With the current design, there is no way to ensure proper lighting at all times (going up/down hills). I would think of a gimbal-type design for the light socket/support to ensure that the light beam stays in a specific angle at all times (similar to the adaptive headlight systems on cars).

[Seba]

11 minutes ago, Purplecycle said:

I would think of a gimbal-type design for the light socket/support to ensure that the light beam stays in a specific angle at all times (similar to the adaptive headlight systems on cars).

Unfortunately, even gimbal won't help. This is because of EUC principle, I've made simple graphics to show this effect. In short - EUC only follow local gravity that is sensed by its heart, inertial measurement unit (combination of gyroscopes and accelerometers). It certainly doesn't follow and doesn't even know terrain slope.

[Purplecycle]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

Unfortunately, even gimbal won't help. This is because of EUC principle, I've made simple graphics to show this effect. In short - EUC only follow local gravity that is sensed by its heart, inertial measurement unit (combination of gyroscopes and accelerometers). It certainly doesn't follow and doesn't even know terrain slope.

Seba, a pic is worth a thousand words!

You are right -- in a nutshell, a gimbal would not work because the chassis of the wheel will always keep its position, regardless of the slope. The gimbal would only work for side movements (to steer in curves, for example). For uphill/downhill I don't know what would be a good solution... Maybe some electronic sensor/gps to measure altitude loss/gain.

 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Purplecycle said:

Seba, a pic is worth a thousand words!

You are right -- in a nutshell, a gimbal would not work because the chassis of the wheel will always keep its position, regardless of the slope. The gimbal would only work for side movements (to steer in curves, for example). For uphill/downhill I don't know what would be a good solution... Maybe some electronic sensor/gps to measure altitude loss/gain.

 

That is not entirely correct....a gimball or gyro stabilizer might work. But not necessarily on its own. However linked to a measure system that can determine downhill or uphill driving it could compensate for it. On top of that a adjustment for speed could be added. Once it is possible to compensate it should be relatively easy to add theses. My car have something like this for its led headlights. 

There is just a small matter of cost..in money, weight and space. 

[Purplecycle]

On 11/1/2018 at 11:09 PM, US69 said:

i can confirm that, as i just got a brandnew 18L with black, improved trolley, new mudflap and new LED frontlight!

The Light is brigther and has a new heatsink, also the angle is better and not blending that much.

But to be honest,  a bright light on a EUC will never be totally perfect, because the pedals -and so the light beam- are moving on acceleration, braking and curving, so you will never ever have a totally perfect light beam as long as the light isnt gyro steered, too!

But yeah...it is really, really good on the latest 18L/XL!

Ulf, quick question -- I would like to order a KS18XL. Do the bigger pedals come installed by default, or I need to specifically request them?

[U-Stride]

On 11/5/2018 at 9:35 AM, Seba said:

Unfortunately, even gimbal won't help. This is because of EUC principle, I've made simple graphics to show this effect. In short - EUC only follow local gravity that is sensed by its heart, inertial measurement unit (combination of gyroscopes and accelerometers). It certainly doesn't follow and doesn't even know terrain slope.

WOW. Cool graphic representation. Some cars adjust their lights automatically even when taking corners. Maybe that's an option?

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, Jediah Matthew said:

WOW. Cool graphic representation. Some cars adjust their lights automatically even when taking corners. Maybe that's an option?

That was what I were saying above. It is not only cornering but also automatic height/distance adjusting. Mazda have this on cx-5,  cx-9 and mx-5 models if you buy the new models with certain equipment. Other carmakers have similar systems.

[U-Stride]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

That was what I were saying above. It is not only cornering but also automatic height/distance adjusting. Mazda have this on cx-5,  cx-9 and mx-5 models if you buy the new models with certain equipment. Other carmakers have similar systems.

Yeah, that’s a great suggestion then. Hopefully they implement something like this in future wheels. That will definitely affect price through. I feel they’re only scratching the surface of what’s possible with an euc. Seen the suspension test videos? 

https://youtu.be/II23HoMOMus

[US69]

On 11/7/2018 at 4:53 PM, Purplecycle said:

Ulf, quick question -- I would like to order a KS18XL. Do the bigger pedals come installed by default, or I need to specifically request them?

Sorry, ypu need to special request them!

They are made exclusive by ewheels USA..but other resellers are able to order them.

But in „standard“ the 18XL comes with normal -but black- pedals....

[Lutalo]

On 11/9/2018 at 8:46 AM, Jediah Matthew said:

Yeah, that’s a great suggestion then. Hopefully they implement something like this in future wheels. That will definitely affect price through. I feel they’re only scratching the surface of what’s possible with an euc. Seen the suspension test videos? 

https://youtu.be/II23HoMOMus

Cool video. Glad to see that someone has begun to address the issue. Interested to see where it leads. I will be following.

Not sure yet how I feel about bouncing up and down on my pedals; especially since there is nothing holding us on to them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how physics works (quite possible), but it would seem more comforting to me if the wheel was doing the bouncing as opposed to the pedals; but hey, it's a start. 

[Jens Ronnedal]

10 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Cool video. Glad to see that someone has begun to address the issue. Interested to see where it leads. I will be following.

Not sure yet how I feel about bouncing up and down on my pedals; especially since there is nothing holding us on to them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how physics works (quite possible), but it would seem more comforting to me if the wheel was doing the bouncing as opposed to the pedals; but hey, it's a start. 

Would be interesting with a solution like you have on MTB and road bikes where you attach your shoe to the pedal. Then you wouldn't have to worry about losing contact with the pedal. And you could jump with the wheel full force upwards instead of just being able to use the down force while jumping. Not ideal to your every day casual ride. But for extreme off-roading I see that kind of solution as a must.

[Mono]

10 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Cool video. Glad to see that someone has begun to address the issue. Interested to see where it leads. I will be following.

Not sure yet how I feel about bouncing up and down on my pedals; especially since there is nothing holding us on to them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how physics works (quite possible), but it would seem more comforting to me if the wheel was doing the bouncing as opposed to the pedals; but hey, it's a start. 

It is a prototype without damping, whereas damping is (must be) part of any standard suspension.

The Kiwano K01 is a self-balancing unicycle with suspension available for purchase:

https://youtu.be/duRy9hqoLro

 

[Lutalo]

5 minutes ago, Jens Ronnedal said:

Would be interesting with a solution like you have on MTB and road bikes where you attach your shoe to the pedal. Then you wouldn't have to worry about losing contact with the pedal. And you could jump with the wheel full force upwards instead of just being able to use the down force while jumping. Not ideal to your every day casual ride. But for extreme off-roading I see that kind of solution as a must.

Interesting idea. The thing it seems to work out with a setup like you describe is what happens in the event of a fall. In casual riding we are almost instantly separated from the wheel. In your setup the often 50+lb wheel would stay attached to the body in the event of a crash or fall.

I have been bucked from wheels on several occassions with a couple of more serious faceplants. In my experience the following happens when a higher speed faceplant occurs in general with variation depending upon speed and situation of course:

1. launch separation from the pedals 

2. run (1st impact point - possible injury to foot, ankle, knee)

3. Hands touch the ground (2d impact point - possible injury to wrist, hands, arms, shoulder)

4. Slide and tumble (final impacts. Many body parts vulnerable and at risk for injury, or further injury - head,  face, shoulders, hips, arms,  legs, etc. )

Having a wheel attached to the feet during a crash could increase the severity of injuries sustained by the rider to an even greater degree. 

It's a challenge for engineers to apply or invent tech resolve this problem.

I am stretching my imagination here,  but perhaps some sort of magnetic pedal and riding boot with crash sensors that deactivate and release when the wheel is impacted in a certain way?

[Lutalo]

52 minutes ago, Mono said:

It is a prototype without damping, whereas damping is (must be) part of any standard suspension.

The Kiwano K01 is a self-balancing unicycle with suspension available for purchase:

https://youtu.be/duRy9hqoLro

 

I agree, Damping for sure. My mild concern is location of the suspension on the pedals instead of the wheel system.

Other than the knowledge that most suspensions on moving vehicles today are systems that control wheel motion, I have no actual data on hand that backs up my actual preference in euc applications. I am not an engineer by trade or hobby, I can only say that my  intuitive and experiential sense favors wheel movement over pedal movement. 

The Kiwano suspension operates in a fashion more in tune to typical setups on cars and to what I think a suspension should do; control wheel movement. It shows that it is possible in our setup ?