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Poll: Have you experienced an unexpected shut-off while riding?


RichieV

Have you experienced an unexpected shut-off while riding?  

148 members have voted

  1. 1. Select the situation that best applies to you.

    • My wheel shut off due to pushing it beyond its capacities (e.g. going downhill on a full charge, excessive leaning at speed, riding hard at low battery, etc.)
      42
    • My wheel shut off out of the blue due to no reason I can discern.
      35
    • I have never experienced an unexpected shut-off while riding.
      71


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I'm curious to see how prevalant is the phenomenon of unexpected shut-offs.  I've posted my story of how my IPS 122 shut down on me because I pushed it beyond its capacities and selected that as my choice.  Of interest to me is the prevalance of shut-offs that occur out of the blue with no discernable reason.  I was browsing YouTube and came across a video posted by @Michael Vu which shows a Ninebot One shutting off for no reason on two separate occasions; thankfully no major injury was sustained but I can imagine something really bad happening if a shut-off occurs at the wrong place and time.  Has something like this happened to you?  Care to share your story?

Edited to say that it would be great if we can get as many riders as possible to participate in the poll.  Thanks!‌

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My Ninebot E+ shut off a couple weeks ago for no reason I can discern. I have about 200KM on the unit, it was full battery and i was riding on a flat surface. The crash wasnt terrible, but it did damage the unit. 

 

On the plus side, i emailed the support team at Ninebot and they are sending me a new control board. 

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I've either overleaned or caused a max-speed cut-off on the 14" generic on a slight gravel uphill, it was already at full tilt-back and beeping, and I think I hit a very small pothole, enough to take it over the edge. :P  The Firewheel with original batteries shunted never shutdown on me, but right now I'm having problems with the custom-batteries and they did cut-out on me due to overcharge on downhill (so BMS-related shut off).

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Those of you who have experienced the unprovoked shut-off, can you say which wheel you were riding?  @Chrispy above mentioned his Ninebot One E+.  The wheel in the video I mentioned in this thread's original post is also a Ninebot.  I wonder if these kinds of shut-offs are exclusive to Ninebots.

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I would just like to highlight here, that although the sample size is small so far, more than half of respondents have stated that they did have an unexpected shut down. So, it's really important that we get these manufacturers to address this issue before these things get really popular (IE we need to stop giving them money if they make units that do this is my personal opinion)

1. Airwheel X8 - medium speed, flat ground. Went flying 30 feet. Terrifying, and lots of people saw. Thank god no one was hit.

2. Generic TG-T3 style - Happened twice. One of the times, my lady fell on her face and hands in the middle of the street. Her wrist is still kind of messed up; thank god she's so forgiving and will still ride, albeit on a unit with a huge battery with many more safety features in the design to avoid the known types of unexpected cut-off.

Both times, the units were not fully charged. Both times, the units started back up normally right away, so I think it was the main-board type unexpected shut down, not BMS shut-down.

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Looks to me as if only 3 have had unexpected shut down. All the other shut downs have been through asking too much of the wheel and therefore should be expected by anyone that has bothered to do any research on the product they are riding.

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I rode with an IPS 121 for 4 months and with msuper for 3 months and never had any cut-offs during this time  . I try to ride safely and avoid to get to 4 beeps on the msuper but i do ride fast and i like to do offroad and long tracks with them . I had some unexpected cut-offs with my first wheel though  which was a airwheel x3 but i had 95 kilos at the time and few experience with eucs . I find both the 121 and msuper extremely reliable wheels as long as you respect the limits of the wheels and yours.

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@Gimlet True, the term I'm using lacks operational definition. I should really use the phrase "absurd, consistently manufactured, copy of a copy of a copy of a bad design shutdown that you expected to happen some time but were not sure when or where." Of course, we both know from the other conversations a while back (linked below for the benefit of any readers who care to click) that some folks think this is the nature of the technology, and some folks believe this problem is not the nature of the technology but merely the result of negligence on the part of the majority of manufacturers in the industry.

Rider (my) ignorance and riding recklessness is something that can definitely be consistently expected, and I think planned for, with the implementation of a variety of electronic limits for the rider's protection. Some brands are implementing some of these safety limits, some are implementing most, or at least doing their best. Most brands aren't even trying. This poll definitely demonstrates some level of success in the fact that most people who have experienced shutdown at least seem to have some idea of why the problem occurred, and perhaps will choose manufacturers who put rider safety as a higher priority in their designs going forward.

But my opinion remains: Let's keep these things what they're supposed to be -- "self balancing" electric unicycles. If there are versions that stop "self balancing" while being ridden, exceeding their own limitations and allowing one to continue to ride to the point of failure, they're doing it wrong.

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happened on my generic crap wheel, after a surgery, I found that one of the cells had actually shorted. I have shunted now, and I hadn't have any shut-downs since.

Looks to me as if only 3 have had unexpected shut down. All the other shut downs have been through asking too much of the wheel and therefore should be expected by anyone that has bothered to do any research on the product they are riding.

The thing is, you shouldn't expect people to research about 'unexpected shutdown's' when you know nothing about the device. Also, it shouldn't be necessary.

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I agree with that - there shouldn't be a need to bone up on 'whether this purchase will randomly try to kill me'.

The question I have, though, with the better brands, what do they do in overlean/hitting pothole at high load/pushing too hard type circumstances?

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The thing is, you shouldn't expect people to research about 'unexpected shutdown's' when you know nothing about the device. Also, it shouldn't be necessary.

I had to learn how to ride a motorcycle and take a test before I was free to drive without restrictions, likewise a car so I dont think it's totally unreasonable to expect people to learn a little about any powered transportation devise before they ride off on it.

I certainly wouldn't have started using my chainsaws without some sort of instruction first. Most people would agee that would be foolish :)

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If euc's are going to be grouped in with motorcycles and chainsaws, then they need to be sold completely differently.  The 'caveat emptor' attitude is why the BMS shutoff issue persists and may in the end contribute for calls to ban euc's.

Or were you actually arguing for compulsory organised testing before anyone is 'allowed' to ride one?

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If euc's are going to be grouped in with motorcycles and chainsaws, then they need to be sold completely differently.  The 'caveat emptor' attitude is why the BMS shutoff issue persists and may in the end contribute for calls to ban euc's.

Or were you actually arguing for compulsory organised testing before anyone is 'allowed' to ride one?

Any wheel can break under you any time, consider what tremendous pressure the components are under most of the time, continuous shocks (connections can give up and hot glued parts can break off), especially if the wheel falls or crashes, high temperatures & currents, more speed & power required by users... That's not to say that issues like those and BMS/mainboard -cutouts shouldn't and couldn't be addressed, better components push up the price of course, and the only way to stop people from overpowering them is to make the tilt-backs so high-angled that it's next to impossible to try to accelerate after certain point (and that has to happen long before the maximum speed on level terrain to leave adequate "buffer" in case of hitting potholes or such which require high power spikes). Then users will complain that they can't ride as fast as would be otherwise possible... personally, I think my next wheel will also be without tilt-back or the tilt-back shouldn't occur until closer or over 30km/h, but I'm aware of the risks :P

The wheels will never be completely "safe" without more tires and mechanical brakes (and then they won't be unicycles anymore ;)).

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You're aware of the risks and obviously highly knowledgeable in how the wheels work.  

Now, if we compare your level of awareness and the fact that you ride round in a Robocop-like armoured suit to the 'safe happy funtime' way in which (many of) the wheels are advertised, and I think you'll get an idea where I'm coming from.  

The conflict between performance and the redundancy required for more safety is a good point.  It needs to be clear what kind of choice you are making when you buy a wheel, though.  I'm all for *informed* freedom to take risks - I'd be happy with a fast wheel with gentle tiltback and a very distinct 'final' warning,  personally.  Plus the capacity to take a small bump while near the limit without faceplanting.

As an aside, how hard do you reckon it would be to build in a 'climbdown' circuit which brought the wheel to a gentle stop in the case of problems with the mainboard?  The lack of passive redundancy is the most dangerous thing about euc's- the answer has to be active redundancy but it's a tough nut to crack.

 

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You're aware of the risks and obviously highly knowledgeable in how the wheels work.  

Now, if we compare your level of awareness and the fact that you ride round in a Robocop-like armoured suit to the 'safe happy funtime' way in which (many of) the wheels are advertised, and I think you'll get an idea where I'm coming from.  

True, it's easier for me to take risks with more protective gear, I wouldn't ride like I do (well, did, now I haven't dared to try the max speeds with the new packs) with the Firewheel without a helmet & wrist-protectors & pads. Even with those, faceplanting from 30km/h is going to be painful, and can lead to broken bones or neck in the worst case. ;)

The conflict between performance and the redundancy required for more safety is a good point.  It needs to be clear what kind of choice you are making when you buy a wheel, though.  I'm all for *informed* freedom to take risks - I'd be happy with a fast wheel with gentle tiltback and a very distinct 'final' warning,  personally.  Plus the capacity to take a small bump while near the limit without faceplanting.

Yes, people should definitely be aware of the limits of the wheels, and the manufacturers haven't been exactly forthcoming in that regard. I've tried to list the max speed and bms-cutout problems in the spec sheet, but not sure on all of those either (still better than nothing, I guess).

As an aside, how hard do you reckon it would be to build in a 'climbdown' circuit which brought the wheel to a gentle stop in the case of problems with the mainboard?  The lack of passive redundancy is the most dangerous thing about euc's- the answer has to be active redundancy but it's a tough nut to crack.

I'm not that knowledgeable about electronics, but if the mainboard blows, I'd reckon there would have to be another "hot standby" -mainboard, that immediately takes over if the primary mainboard fails, keeping the wheel balanced and alerting the rider to stop (probably not a good idea to slam on the brakes, even with tilt-back). Firewheel has nice "low battery"-warning that slows down the wheel in a pretty controlled manner, and starts shaking to warn the user. The wheel then won't accelerate much past walking speed after slowing down and pretty much forces you to dismount.

No idea how complicated such a system would be to build, probably both boards would need to be powered all the time, so that one can take over immediately in case of failure. I could see how the software could work there, having built such "hot standby"-systems for server-environments...

Battery redundancy might also have to be considered (like a single high-current/low capacity redundant pack with separate connectors, only meant to give high output during emergencies, until the rider can stop safely), in case of BMS board failure or power cut due to loosened connector or such in the "main" battery packs (avoiding calling them "primary batteries" here, because that's a term in battery-technology meaning non-rechargeable batteries ;)).

 

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If euc's are going to be grouped in with motorcycles and chainsaws, then they need to be sold completely differently.  The 'caveat emptor' attitude is why the BMS shutoff issue persists and may in the end contribute for calls to ban euc's.

Or were you actually arguing for compulsory organised testing before anyone is 'allowed' to ride one?

I'm certanly not looking for any regulation and you can indeed buy a chainsaw off the Internet or from a shop with no certification or training of any kind. A few people do so and go straight out and use them with no safety gear or even reading the manual, but most sane people would agree that it's a stupid thing to do.

As for bringing a wheel to a safe stop that can only ever work if there hasn't been a major failure. KS 800w does it quite well when you run it hard and the battery can't keep up, on low voltage it beeps and tilts back so as to become unridable for a few minutes until the battery recovers.

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I'm certanly not looking for any regulation and you can indeed buy a chainsaw off the Internet or from a shop with no certification or training of any kind. A few people do so and go straight out and use them with no safety gear or even reading the manual, but most sane people would agree that it's a stupid thing to do.

As for bringing a wheel to a safe stop that can only ever work if there hasn't been a major failure. KS 800w does it quite well when you run it hard and the battery can't keep up, on low voltage it beeps and tilts back so as to become unridable for a few minutes until the battery recovers.

A chainsaw is perhaps not the best analogy - even pretty dumb people immediately perceive them to be very dangerous.

The KS units definitely look good in terms of looking after the rider, as you say - I'm quite tempted by the 16 inch verision.  I don't agree that you can't build in safety measures for foreseeable major failures, though.  Esaj has some great ideas in the preceding post.

I wonder whether a capacitor might be able to store enough charge for a 'controlled stop' routine in the case of major issues (rather than a redundant battery)...

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So this poll ties into the thread I started about getting ewheels on the shelves of big box stores in the U.S.  One of the issues brought up in that thread is that ewheels are too dangerous for the comfort of major stores and would be too much of a lawsuit magnet.  But it occurs to me that they stock and sell dangerous items all the time.

From kitchen knives to bicycles to toasters to so many other things, severe injury or death lurks in their usage.  The difference between these items and ewheels is that the safe-use envelope is commonly known for the everyday items. If you use this item only for A, B, and C, and don't do X, Y, and Z, your chances of escaping harm are high; go outside of this envelope and your chances are less so.

To use a knife safely, do keep it sharp, use it on an appropriate surface, hold it correctly, etc.; do NOT throw it in the air, do not pretend to stab your kid brother with it, and so on.  I think we have discovered the safe-use envelope for ewheels at this point.  There are the common sense rules such as making sure to wear safety equipment, observing traffic (both vehicular and pedestrian) and riding accordingly, not riding above your level of skill, etc.  Also now known are the more esoteric rules such as not riding downhill on a full charge, minding your battery level (and riding accordingly), and all the other guidelines for riding within the ewheel's capabilities.

And so I think that properly functioning ewheels as they are now are not much more dangerous than a bicycle or a skateboard if ridden within what we have defined as the safe-use envelope.  There is one glaring exception, though.  From the results of the poll at the time of this post, 14% of riders have experienced a completely unprovoked and unexpected shut-off.  If 14% of all bicycles sold had their handlebars fall off unexpectedly while riding, that would be considered a "bad thing."

Even though the sample size is small, I think this is a big enough number to warrant investigation.  Is it happening across all brands of ewheels or just a handful.  Why is it happening?  What can be done to prevent it?  I think once this issue is mitigated, then ewheels can be more widely sold to the general public, at least from a safety perspective.

Some would argue that shut-offs of any kind are unacceptable; that one should not have to worry about excessive leaning or riding on a low battery.  I do agree that would be ideal, but I have to think there would be a cost.  If, hypothetically, such a wheel could be brought to market, how much more would you pay for it over what is available now?  Or perhaps there's a tradeoff: if for X amount of money you can either have a wheel that is completely safe or one that is only conventionally safe but with twice the battery life, which would you spend your money on?  I guess it depends on how much you value that extra margin of safety.

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At least some of that 14% could be people who had unexpected cut-off not knowing why, because they didn't know that the wheel can shut down at max speed / BMS cut-out / overleaning / overcharge etc. It's not like the manufacturers warn of these things (much), or that the manuals (are there even such?) would mention them.

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At least some of that 14% could be people who had unexpected cut-off not knowing why, because they didn't know that the wheel can shut down at max speed / BMS cut-out / overleaning / overcharge etc. It's not like the manufacturers warn of these things (much), or that the manuals (are there even such?) would mention them.

My wheel came with two manuals, stating different speeds and charging time...

I am one of the 14%, and with my wheel it looks like one of the cells actually shorted when it did cut-out. at least one cell was damaged and had to be changed to drive properly again.

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