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MSX 100v VS MSX 84v


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41 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

and a cool development a forum member James just reached out to me and he lives in my state and we are going to meet up to ride and i will have the opportunity to try some other wheels before i buy my MSX which is awesome

:laughbounce2: If it is the same James @JES ask him about the ride we did together this past Monday, he got stuck on his super v3 1300wh 5 miles out from our cars, I had to finish the ride (48 miles) on my MSX 1600wh, get my car and pick him up... LOL :eff034a94a:

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19 hours ago, Jason Vickery said:

In my mind the faster a wheel is capable of going the safer it may be. My theory is that the further you are from overpowering your wheel and causing a cut off while driving the better especially if you are going to be pushing the top speeds.

Overpowering is a very broad term...

Cut-off is in my understanding some failure in the wheel hardware/firmware causing the wheel to stop. This can happen quite independed of top speed, safety margin, power, etc - but also like for burned mosfets it can be burden dependend and be a "design issue".

What's imho interesting is the overlean - i.e. reaching the max torque over speed limit, where the motor with the given battery voltage cannot produce any torque anymore == no balancing... (for more details see https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?tab=comments#comment-107721)

So, as already @meepmeepmayer mentioned the number of parallel cells is an important factor - they can deliver more current _and_ have less voltage sag while delivering the same amount of current.

But (!if they used the same or a quite similar motor in both wheels!) driving at the same speed with the same load the 100V battery has a lower burden as the 84V battery - the motor driver acts as DC/DC converter (reducing the voltage to the needed voltage of the motor and by the same factor increasing the current for the motor). So the 100V battery has about 100/84 (20%) less "current burden".

... and as @Mono stated by the different voltages the (?same?) motor's operating point is shifted so the efficiencies (burden for electronics) are different.

So there is no easy answer for some "safety" comparison like higher speed gives more margin - one would have to look into all the details of both wheels for every limiting parameter.

16 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd guess the 100V msX is up to 5km/h or even 5mph faster than the 84V msX. Not more. So maybe 10% difference. Pretty sure 50kph would work for you with both models. This is only a guess based on no real life data.

I'd assume you mean reachable speed while driving? Do you have any idea how the lift cut off speeds are? If they have this 20% difference (100/84) this could indicate the same motor used....

 

 

Edited by Chriull
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Thank you all for responding. I definitely have the BUG and if not for the closing on my new house in the last couple weeks i would have a couple more wheels already. It was an act of determination and willpower to buy the house instead of more wheels haha . I have also been on the waiting list for the pre-order through Jason for a couple months and i am hoping in the next month and a half I will have my new MSX 84v. when i refer to overpowering my wheel more specifically I mean overlean and yes I have a motorcycle and I hope i never need this much speed but at the same time my first day on my ks14d I was impressed and uncomfortable with 13 mph and was happy i had undervalued  the 18.5 mph top speed. and by day 3 or week one I was still having fun but when it came time for more long distance straight line riding the speed showed its weakness. as i have never driven a bigger wheel I will soon discover what 25mph feels like and where most riders feel comfortable riding but for me 25mph does not seem to far from my 18.5 and therefore I was hoping for 30-35mph as a ceiling even if i never use it just so i do not outgrow the wheel in a month. I need it to be the speed and distance king for a while because I will not be buying another wheel for probably another year while i recover from this house buying experience. I feel like I have found the perfect wheel in the MSX 84v and I appreciate all of your help getting to this decision.

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On 9/27/2018 at 8:45 PM, Jason Vickery said:

what is the top speed of these wheels?

You are comparing the top speed of a top speed limited wheel to a one that doesn’t have a top speed limiter. The top speed of my 84V MSX is 78km/h. But that is with zero wind resistance, tire friction, and rider weight. In comparison I think the 100V had a lift-off speed of 87km/h or something.

No matter which way you look at it, the MSX is the fastest and most powerful all-purpose wheel there is atm. Comparing the 84V and 100V versions for added safety is a moot point imo. If you ever ride at speeds where it would matter, you are not sane enough to actually be able to take the difference in consideration.

On 9/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, Jason Vickery said:

can you raise the tilt back speed

Yes. Other manufacturers let you adjust the tilt-back speed (= top speed) up to the advertized top speed, MSX lets you adjust it from 6km/h to 48km/h in 3km/h intervals, or disable it alltogether.

On 9/28/2018 at 5:02 PM, Jason Vickery said:

25mph does not seem to far from my 18.5

Speed as a whole changes many things exponentially. That includes braking distance, power required, wind resistance, and damage sustained in a crash. For example, from 5 to 10 km/h the 100% difference doesn’t feel much like anything. From 100 to 200 km/h the difference feels (and is) much larger.

My first two wheels felt unnecessarily fast at the beginning. Yet I ended up riding them both at their top speed most of the time. However, just an upgrade from 27km/h to 35km/h made it already fast enough not to frustrate me much. My personal top speed is settling at around 45km/h with the MSX. And while perfectly stable, that feels very fast! But I like the feeling of fast.

If I think about going even faster, I think in detail what would happen if I were to crash from any reason. Not at all an unlikely event, yet one that we tend to disregard.

Since you have watched a lot of videos on the MSX, I’m sure you have also noticed how many owners have needed to modify their pedal angles or atleast the sidepads. I feel that Gotway doesn’t even consider many of the details that we westeners use to compare the wheels. So be prepared having to modify or fix ”design” issues on your MSX right from the start.

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thank you for your response. it turns out i am getting the 1300 watt msx in a couple days and may upgrade to the 1600 watt battery pack in 5 weeks when the new shipment gets here. I would like to know more about the upgrades please. my wheel comes with new side pads from Jason and i was on the euc guy store and i saw the mud flap and the tilted side pads but i'm not sure if i'm going to get the tilted side pads yet because they are 45-50$ . I am guessing the pedal angle can be fixed by grinding some metal away. what else can and should be done? please direct me 

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Upgrading to the 1600Wh just after 5 weeks doesn’t sound cheap. Perhaps a special deal with Ewheels?

Quote

I would like to know more about the upgrades please.

Oh right, you lucky ones get proper sidepads from the get go! I forgot about that...

Yes, the pedal angle can be fixed with a proper flat file (and an angle measuring tool such as just an iPhone) and some guts to grind on a new EUC.

Those two are the crucial ones that can be show stoppers. In addition you too might prefer a louder or a redirected beeper, large pedal extensions, fixing the caps properly on the main board, waterproofing, a wider front light spread, and of course a mud flap. I’d suggest you consider these only once you get more familiar with the wheel.

Edited by mrelwood
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yes Jason at ewheels gave me a great option because there were no 1600 watt battery packs. he said if i want the 1600 watt battery pack and pay the shipping both ways $100 and pay the difference of $400 for the battery upgrade he will send me the bigger battery in 5 weeks and i will send him the 1300 watt battery back. so its an extra $100 more than i would have paid if i end up making the switch but if i decide the 1300 is enough it could end up saving me $400. do you have any links to some of these mods? i know its a lot to ask but i am horrible at searching forums. anything would help. I am especially interested in the waterproofing and light mod.

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That is a great deal from Ewheels!

30 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

do you have any links to some of these mods?

I am especially interested in the waterproofing and light mod.

Water proofing an Msuper V3S+, the X is identical in this regard:

 

Some of my mods are explained (vaguely) in my MSX diary:

I didn’t document the light mod I did, and must say it was a lot of trial, error, and ”whoops, it works!” Adjusting the depth of the original LED in the reflector didn’t prove very succesfull, so I replaced the lamp core with one from a broken flashlight that had a slightly bigger Cree LED. I happened to find a position in the reflector where the spread is a good deal larger. Teflon tape, silicone glue, and mounting back to the wheel. Quite a bit of carving, filing and other destroying was required.  I’m sorry I can’t give a more straight forward guide!

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1 hour ago, Jason Vickery said:

hey guys maybe you can help me. How many amps and at what voltage can i charge my MSX. I understand 1c is acceptable so lets get some numbers for the 100v model and the 84v models both the 1300 watt and the 1600 watt. thanks

100V li-ion battery can only be charged with a 100V li-ion charger. 84V with a 84V one, etc. For the amps the connector or the cabling inside the MSX is the soft spot, making 5A the usual recommended maximum. That’s what I use. It’s still way below 1C.

Edited by mrelwood
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I know the 5 amp charger is recommended and I can see that the wires coming from the charge port to the circuit board are quite small but the wire attached to the battery with an xt60 connector is a smaller gauge wire and the larger cable should allow a higher charging rate. so if i were to take my side cover off and connect directly to the battery what do you think i could charge at?

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I think there is room to add one more parallel cell of 24 lithium ion cells which would bring the 100v MSX up to the same battery size as the 1600 watt hour 84v MSX.if you relocate the buzzer there is even more room to be had if you really wanted to dig into it! 

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Hey guys a couple more questions.

1. it looks like gotway has 2 alarms and not 3 like kingsong? so are the alarms 1 beep and then 2 beeps for the final alarm? or 2 beeps then 3 beeps for the final alarm?

2. it seems like the gotway speed limits you to 30kmh when you get to 25% battery and 15kmh when you are at 10%. does anyone know the exact number ladder for this?

3. I can disable my 1st alarm and disable my second alarm. everyone says listen to the beeps and respect the beeps and i can also disable tilt back so my question is this. If I disable tilt back and alarm 1 and alarm 2 do I have any other final safety warning before the wheel cuts out on me? and can i monitor voltage etc in the app while disabling the alarms to remain safe? and finally i can set my tilt back to 48kmh so if i am speed limiting at 30kmh where is the tilt back? does it come into affect at lower speeds when you are being speed limited?

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2 hours ago, Jason Vickery said:

I know the 5 amp charger is recommended and I can see that the wires coming from the charge port to the circuit board are quite small but the wire attached to the battery with an xt60 connector is a smaller gauge wire and the larger cable should allow a higher charging rate. so if i were to take my side cover off and connect directly to the battery what do you think i could charge at?

I'd go for a 4A charger if you want to be safe and 5A is the max where everything should work.

While your idea should work, I don't see the point. If you really want to charge faster than 5A often, just build in another charge port and use 2 chargers. The final 10% or so will always be at the same speed as the current reduces there, so that limits how fast you can charge to full with any charger configuration (the last hour or two is independent of charger speed).

Speedyfeet used 3 5A chargers with 3 charge ports on their 1000 mile Monsters, so unless they modified the internal cabling (I don't think they did), 15A should work (never mind how many C that would be, do the math). Or look up what the wire gauge can do and give that plenty of leeway on the safe side.

Don't quote me on 15A or blame me if it doesn't work (or any other number, or for whatever reason). If you do such electrical modifications, your job to know what is a good idea and what is not:efee47c9c8:

2 hours ago, Jason Vickery said:

Hello my friends! I am also wondering can the 1845 watt hour battery pack from the 100v monster fit inside the 100v MSuper X? has anybody tried it? seems to me you would really have the ultimate euc if you did this!

The 100V Monster has 3 packs of 620Wh 2x24 cell packs, the 100V msX has 2. So you could move 2 packs (1240Wh) of the regular 100V msX over, but not 3. Anything else would mean putting smaller blocks of cells (disassembling the pack and maybe even splitting a 24 block) in various places and gets complicated really soon.

2 hours ago, Jason Vickery said:

I think there is room to add one more parallel cell of 24 lithium ion cells which would bring the 100v MSX up to the same battery size as the 1600 watt hour 84v MSX.if you relocate the buzzer there is even more room to be had if you really wanted to dig into it! 

@Hansolo did it and posted some pictures recently.

Keep in mind, if you want to do that operation, you might as well do it with a 1600Wh 84V msX and add (at least) another 20 cells=260Wh for sweet, sweet 1800Wh (4 cells less than the 100V Monster) or even 2072Wh. Given that the 84V msX is cheaper, you'll get more for your money.

1 hour ago, Jason Vickery said:

Hey guys a couple more questions.

1. it looks like gotway has 2 alarms and not 3 like kingsong? so are the alarms 1 beep and then 2 beeps for the final alarm? or 2 beeps then 3 beeps for the final alarm?

2. it seems like the gotway speed limits you to 30kmh when you get to 25% battery and 15kmh when you are at 10%. does anyone know the exact number ladder for this?

3. I can disable my 1st alarm and disable my second alarm. everyone says listen to the beeps and respect the beeps and i can also disable tilt back so my question is this. If I disable tilt back and alarm 1 and alarm 2 do I have any other final safety warning before the wheel cuts out on me? and can i monitor voltage etc in the app while disabling the alarms to remain safe? and finally i can set my tilt back to 48kmh so if i am speed limiting at 30kmh where is the tilt back? does it come into affect at lower speeds when you are being speed limited?

  1. There are 3 alarms. 2 and 3 beeps are the 1st and second (speed) alarms, continuous beeps is the 80% 3rd alarm.
  2. There are no fixed speed limits. At 15% battery (whatever that voltage is exactly) the battery beeps start (1 slow beep, 10% 2 slow beeps, 5% 3 slow beeps), so it depends on your voltage drop, both from charge state and how you're riding (e.g. it starts battery-beeping when going up a hill or accelerating due to the voltage drop, and stops after you are up there or slow down).
    15% under load is about 25% no-load, so that's where your battery is "empty". After that you won't get very far (a few km) and it slows you down quite quickly. So consider 25% battery where you should be near your destination.
  3. You can't disable the 3rd 80% alarm, so just listen to that.
    You can use an app like Wheellog to warn you/buzz at low voltages for added safety.
    Tiltback is only at the speed you set it. Any other speed limit would just be beeps, anyways, the wheel can't really limit you.
Edited by meepmeepmayer
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Thank you for your quick response.The fast charger that Jason at ewheels sells is 5amp and on the website is only available for the 84v. does anyone know if he has a fast charger for the 100v he is selling now and maybe the website is just not updated yet? also and if not does the 84v fast charger have an adjustable potentiometer or something that you can adjust to bring it up to the 100v?

or does anybody recommend another charger?

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2 hours ago, Jason Vickery said:

does the 84v fast charger have an adjustable potentiometer or something that you can adjust to bring it up to the 100v?

The potentiometers that are inside the chargers are for fine-tuning the charging voltage. While some chargers might have more range downwards for 80% charging, I don’t think any of them has nearly that much range upwards.

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