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MSX 100v VS MSX 84v


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This  topic has been made to list differences between these two wheels to better inform new buyers which wheel is best for them. as I understand and being no expert in the matter a higher voltage motor will deliver increased top speeds. I understand the 84v MSX comes with a 1600 watt hour battery pack while the 100v MSX comes with a 1240 watt hour battery pack thus reducing the range. I am particularly interested in top speed difference and i know that no one should be going this fast and it should make the point moot but I am still interested in practical or theoretical knowledge on the subject. I am a rider weighing 230 pounds i am 5'7'' and I would like help understanding what my range would be estimated at on these two wheels. a list of the formula used to reach this conclusion would also be very helpful to me. In my mind the faster a wheel is capable of going the safer it may be. My theory is that the further you are from overpowering your wheel and causing a cut off while driving the better especially if you are going to be pushing the top speeds. I have not discounted the importance of range and 400 watt hours of extra range on the 84v MSUPER X is nothing to sneeze at. especially when you factor in that the 100v MSX with an inferior 1240 watt hours has an increased price tag of $200. My final thought is this. My understanding of voltage is like this. the higher voltage will consume electricity faster thus reducing your range further. All things being equal a 100v MSX will not be able to travel as far as an 84v MSX with the same 1240 watt hour battery pack. The increased voltage of the 100v motor will consume energy faster. Putting aside things like temperature, elevation, incline, rider weight, wind etc etc these things i have listed weigh most on my mind before my purchase and I hope we may all be informed together by the wonderful membership we share in this forum to help us better understand and decide which wheel is best for us. 

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18 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

a higher voltage motor will deliver increased top speeds

With the same motor - yes. With different motor/voltage combinations everything could be possible. Imho both wheels could have the same or quite similar motors?

Anyhow - the 100V MSX has a higher topspeed. Imho proportional (100/84,2 times faster)?

21 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

The increased voltage of the 100v motor will consume energy faster.

Not really. Maybe there could be something with the different motherboard that gives both modells different efficiencies.

But going faster/accelerating faster needs more energy. 

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Anyhow - the 100V MSX has a higher topspeed. Imho proportional (100/84,2 times faster)?

100/84=1.19 so i see it may be 20% faster. not sure why you say 2 times faster? i don't believe it is twice as fast. please elaborate for me.

you make a good point they could be similar motors and one could be overvolted hence the question is it possible to overvolt the 84v up to 100v or would you need a different battery configuration etc. i am sure this is not going to be possible. just a thought

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17 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

Anyhow - the 100V MSX has a higher topspeed. Imho proportional (100/84,2 times faster)?

100/84=1.19 so i see it may be 20% faster. not sure why you say 2 times faster? i don't believe it is twice as fast. please elaborate for me.

The "," is a decimal point in the area i live ?(1)

Quote

you make a good point they could be similar motors and one could be overvolted hence the question is it possible to overvolt the 84v up to 100v or would you need a different battery configuration etc. i am sure this is not going to be possible. just a thought

One needs a different motherboard. And some adopted firmware could be nice, too?

(1) and there is no reason for the 84.2V ?...

Edited by Chriull
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Thank you for your reply you are correct and i do understand you to a great degree and appreciate your answer and i should not have muddled up the post with my bad science and poor comparisons. I apologize. The Heart of the post and my question and the answers i feel will benefit buyers choosing between these two wheels are mostly.

1. what is the difference in top speeds between these wheels?

2. what is the range difference between these wheels?

3. are there any other factors that persuaded you to buy one over the other and what were those reasons?

and finally  most people say the battery pack is the most expensive part of an electric vehicle so my question is if the 84v MSX has nearly 400 more watt hours of battery pack then why is the 100v MSX $200 more expensive? Thank you all for reading and or commenting on these thoughts.

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I agree that producers price things at what they are able to get for a product and generally all that you have said. as far as it being a newer product does this newness come with any upgrades to the circuit board the case the tire the rim the firmware etc? or is it just hype? i could care less about cool factor and having the newest product.Thank you for your response.

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what an amazing response, thank you so much for the time you spent replying to this post. I am almost definitely going with the 84v MSX I would still like to know the top speed difference although i do not believe it will cause me to change my decision. I believe someone who weighs 230 pounds like me will benefit more from the larger battery pack. 

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All this theory stuff doesn't translate too well into real life with EUCs. So one has to test.

I'd guess the 100V msX is up to 5km/h or even 5mph faster than the 84V msX. Not more. So maybe 10% difference. Pretty sure 50kph would work for you with both models. This is only a guess based on no real life data.

I can only repeat, listen to the beeps, that's the really important thing here. But either msX is probably the strongest wheel you can get right now, so the right choice.

From a price and range point of view, it's hard to deny the 84V is better. There is also the 1300Wh 84V option, but I'm always advocating for the biggest battery you can get.

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I agree i think the bigger the battery the better. Not to mention the biggest factor that decided me on gotway was the fact that the other wheels speed limit you much sooner. for example my ks14d has a range theoretically of 15-20 miles miles but my weight is excessive for the wheel which decreases that. also it speed limits and reduces you at 50% battery life which would cut that number to 7-10 miles of full speed range. which is further skewed by the fact that my battery may have 65-70% battery power left but while under load and while moving and accelerating that percentage will drop to 50% while moving in the app so i am being speed limited as high as 70-65% battery life which reduces my theoretical range of full speed driving to about 4-5 miles if i am lucky. the fact that gotway does not do this and or not to this extent is very alluring to me. so even if i got the ninebot one z 10 which looks cool and has a nice speed i would be limited and slowed down much sooner. I want all of my power available as long as possible.

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I believe the newer KingSongs (18L) only start limiting at 25% or so. It's not as bad as the old ones, apparently. Not sure about how the Z works there.

If you already have a wheel, you can get your Wh/km or Wh/mile number. 0.8*420Wh (or 0.75*420Wh, whatever) divided by the range you got from it (if you ever rode it down to beeps). Then you might get better estimates for your msX ranges. Though the 14D will use less because you go slower with it, so consider that. It's all not very precise:efee47c9c8:

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Here's the formula I'm using to estimate range: battery capacity * 80% divided by something between 15Wh/km to 16Wh/km.

The idea is like this: a battery that is 20% under no load is pretty much empty / 0% under load, so 80% of the battery capacity is usable. With this approach, I (or any ~80kg rider) use between 15 and 16 Wh per km (at about 30kph speed).

Note this is "personalized" and the Wh/km (or Wh per mile) numbers are purely math and may not be related to actual energy usage. These come from testing the real life range of a wheel and figuring out what the matching Wh/km number is to get the result. So one needs to have tested this for one's weight, speed and riding style with at least one wheel.

In hindsight, since the Gotway battery beeps start at 15% and under load you lose about 10% vs no-load conditions, battery * 0.75 (25% battery goes down to 15%=beeps under load) would have been a better approach (75% of battery is usable before beeps start), but that means adjusting the empiric Wh/km numbers and I'm too lazy for that:efeebb3acc:

For your weight, I'd go with 17Wh/km to prevent future disappointment, that would mean:

  • 1600Wh (1554) gives you 1554*0.8/17 = ~73km / 45 miles
  • 1240Wh gives you 1240*0.8/17 = ~58km /  36 miles

So 70km or 55km range would be a reasonable estimate for you. I guess...

The stronger a wheel is, the safer it is. That's true. But strong means power, not speed. So don't look at voltage, look at power. Power = voltage * current, so they will balance out for a specific power requirement, voltage alone means not so much.

Both wheels have the same motor, but it doesn't matter anyways. Power is limited by what the battery can push out, specifically the current. The 100V has 4*24 cells (4 parallel blocks of 24), the 84V has 6*20 cells (6 parallel blocks of 20), in theory the 84V can push 50% more current because that depends only on the number of parallel blocks. In theory, this translates to about 20% more peak power for the 84V. (4 * 100 = 400 vs. 6 * 84 = 504).

That does NOT mean the 100V is less safe, both wheels are extremely strong. @EUC GUY fried his 100V after pushing a car for over 5 minutes, so normal riders should be very safe on either wheel:efee47c9c8:

So both wheels are as safe as they can be at the time. I don't think there's a safety difference.

The important thing about safety is, LISTEN TO THE BEEPS! Whenever they may come. And wear protection. Don't go too fast, look where you're going, etc. Much more important:efee47c9c8:

That's just Gotway's pricing. The 100V 1845Wh Monster also has the same price as the 84V 2400Wh Monster.

If you're looking for an advantage of the 100V over the 84V, other than the higher top speed and bragging rights, there isn't much. (For the MSuper X. The 100V Monster has a new, much stronger board than the old 84V Monster.)

--

Nitpick: 84V (4.2V * 20) and 100.8V (4.2V * 24):efee47c9c8:

From what i saw, the pcb and components dont give out. only consern is heat. and not heat from the mosfets, but the cables.  I will make an alarm myself that triggers before the insulation melts, but i also talked to Lukas about adding this as a feature going forward. he said he would take it further. i hope he does. With this added, you could not kill this wheel :D

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9 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

why not just replace the wire with lower gauge thicker wiring? if i am following you here.

The motor's axle limits the cable thickness. Cables have to fit through there. That's actually why they increased the axle size with their newest motors, to fix this exact problem.

Don't worry, you won't be able to kill the msX unless you start pushing cars with it, too:efee8319ab: This failure could only happen because the mosfets are so oversized compared to other wheels that the cables are now the weakest point (and unless the mosfets, their temperature isn't monitored).

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I am also hearing a lot of people quote that i will get 50kmh riding speed out of either wheel which translates to 31mph when i was under the impression that the MSX can go 35mph+ or 56kmh+ and i was under the impression the + meant plus meaning faster as in faster than 35mph. This is the root of my final question. what is the top speed of these wheels? I know the weight of the rider is a factor and everything else involved but all things being equal my little ks14d which is not meant for my 230 pound weight still allows me to drive at the advertised top speed even though my range is reduced. I know that i need to respect the beeps and i will and when i receive my wheel whichever i decide on i will report back with my findings as it seems everyone is tight lipped or in fear of doing a top speed test.  But my final question i would like answered either from personal knowledge or theoretical is what is the top speed of the MSX 84v vs the MSX 100v i would like to know if it is only 5kmh that in my opinion is negligent and is only an increase of 3mph but 10kmh would be 6mph which starts to be a clear advantage especially when considering safe high speed cruising speeds. thanks again all who read and or reply. 

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I have also watched a video saying that the tilt back on the MSX is set at 30mph but can be disabled. My question is can you raise the tilt back speed in the settings or modify it in some way that allows you to raise the tilt back speed in some way? sorry if i am asking questions that have been answered previously in the forum but i either do not know how to use the search function or it is not a good system of searching because i can never find the answers i am looking for with the search functions on forums.

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2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I believe the newer KingSongs (18L) only start limiting at 25% or so. It's not as bad as the old ones, apparently. Not sure about how the Z works there.

If you already have a wheel, you can get your Wh/km or Wh/mile number. 0.8*420Wh (or 0.75*420Wh, whatever) divided by the range you got from it (if you ever rode it down to beeps). Then you might get better estimates for your msX ranges. Though the 14D will use less because you go slower with it, so consider that. It's all not very precise:efee47c9c8:

My KS18L with FW1.11 starts limiting at 50% battery. I rode my wheel with every FW update and was always limited at 50%. Although I believe on one of the FW iterations the limited speed was changed to a more gradual reduction. BTW I've never even seen 30mph on it, the fasted I've ever reached was 29mph. Usually poor road conditions and wind are the limiting factors in riding safety for me, not battery or motor capabilities!

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1 hour ago, Jason Vickery said:

another question i wouldnt mind having cleared up although in my opinion not a factor in the decision is the included seat. I have seen videos of the MSX 100v with the included seat. Does the 84v Version also Come with the included seat. Thanks.

the seats do not come in the GW box with the wheel... If you get it from EWheels.com, Jason includes the seat with the purchase as well as the upgraded side pads (thicker) which get shipped out of AZ separately... can't help with top speed... I can tell you that the accuracy of any of the manufacturers claims regarding specs is questionable... I do not push my speeds much over 26mph, but I am under the impression that the final tiltback and beeps can not be turned off on the MSX, not sure where I read it ...

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@Jason Vickery if you ck the "video thread" I just saw posts regarding guys getting well over 30mph  (59.6km/h) on their MSX... ck that for more info

Just now, Jason Vickery said:

Thank you for that information my kingsong is the same . 50% battery which on such a small battery pack is a fun killer. 

My first wheel was a 14D... I feel your pain...:(

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I am going to go and learn how to ck something and find that video so thank you and a cool development a forum member James just reached out to me and he lives in my state and we are going to meet up to ride and i will have the opportunity to try some other wheels before i buy my MSX which is awesome. Being part of a forum is great and i appreciate you all.

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