Is the Inward Bank Angle on the MSX Uncomfortable?

[Jason McNeil]

Working with Gotway on making some adjustments to the next MSX production. There's been a fair amount of feedback on the pedal bank angle,  most owners aren't thrilled about the steep 15° inward bank angle. There's the opportunity to have the pedals changed to a 7° bank . Please provide your feedback, if you think this is a worthwhile improvement. 

Special thanks to @Adel for bringing the topic to focus.

 

[Marcglider]

I did a 48 mile ride yesterday on my MSX and I was fine... I think most people can and will get used to the angle... I also think if it were less, it would make the adjustment period easier and most riders would adjust and get used to that also... 

on a different note, I got rid of the thick upper side pads on my MSX and my Tesla and used 1/4 inch material from a shoe repair shop to fit in the recessed area... that seems to have been more of an issue for me as well as a few others I speak with that have these wheels, but over time these can become a bit more comfortable... 

Analyzing it a bit, when you put the thicker pads on with the high pedal angle, it puts more pressure on your calf where it hits the upper pads which initially makes the ride uncomfortable, at least for me

[eddiemoy]

I don't think your ankles were meant to stand in that awkward angle for any long duration.  I'm concerned that it is healthy for your ankles.  

[who_the]

I love the new pedal angle and wouldn't change it. But I know @Adel and others who don't. Could Gotway thread a small allen head screw into the contact point that could serve as a pedal stop that could be inserted or removed to adjust where the pedal rests on the pillar, and thus the angle?

[Marty Backe]

54 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I don't think your ankles were meant to stand in that awkward angle for any long duration.  I'm concerned that it is healthy for your ankles.  

I've had multiple 3+ hour rides on my MSX. Zero problems. I seriously doubt there are physical repercussions.

Clearly many people don't like the angle of these pedals. Yet many people do like them.

The best plan would be to have an option.

At least I have mine, so if Gotway screws it up and goes back to flat pedals, I'm still good.

P.S.  Did people piss and moan when the KS14C was released with pedals that had the same angle? Maybe the early KS16 wheels also had the steep angle?

[Mrd777]

1 hour ago, Marcglider said:

Analyzing it a bit, when you put the thicker pads on with the high pedal angle, it puts more pressure on your calf where it hits the upper pads which initially makes the ride uncomfortable, at least for me

This is exactly the issue, the angle does create additional pressure on your calf which becomes uncomfortable.

[houseofjob]

My 2 Cents: 

People are largely blaming pedal angle for foot fatigue riding the MSX, never experimenting with the ride mode settings, which is the bigger culprit here IMHO.

All MSX ride settings are way too hard and unforgiving IMO, no flexibility like some of their other current gen wheels like the MCM5. The MSX soft mode is less fatiguing, but nowhere near as buttery, free, and non-fatiguing as the loose and swingy softer modes on the MSX predecessor, the MSV3 (ironic here because I feel the MSX super hard feel was a result of over-generalized rider complaints about the MSV3 softness).

Pedal V is another degree of leverage on an EUC, which is always welcome IMHO (I wish ALL my wheels had the sharp V, great for when pedal griptape fails to grip in rain, etc).

Granted I don’t own an MSX, but it would be a shame if they did away with such a feature because of less skilled rider complaints; really feel this is heavily based more on personal preference and rider proficiency, rather than a universality.

[Marcglider]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

really feel this is heavily based more on personal preference

This is EXACTLY the deal IMHO... where some seem to like the wide uppers on some of the GW wheels, I seem to prefer the narrow like the MCM5 and my Tesla and MSX now that I modified the pads... I think most of us including myself are too quick to form our opinion on the wheels without giving a fair amount of time before making judgments, especially where we want the Manufacturer to modify designs... this has been mostly magnified with early assessments of the Z10... I am not 100% on board with thinking the ride MODE will do much in regard of the ride comfort, but I am going to take your advice and try it out for a while and see... I can say that @Mark Lee took your advice and he rides his MCM5 in soft mode and Loves it, he has been trying to convince me to do it, but I have not yet tried...

[houseofjob]

@Marcglider I wouldn’t say the hardness of the MSX modes are 100% responsible, but more like 65-75% responsible for the foot fatigue (the rest IMHO is having your feet too close and hugging the EUC body), at least when I’ve swapped onto a friends’ MSX for prolonged ride time..... soft(er) mode(s) significantly improves fatigue to me, as you don’t have to exert as much force for the same power / acceleration / speed continuance... this difference is like 2-3X more pronounced on the MCM5 sport vs soft modes, as I can’t even ride in the MCM5 sport mode any more due to the quick fatigue. 

Now, getting used to navigating the slightly different, and sometimes unsettling feel of soft(est) mode? That’s a different argument (took me awhile to warm up to it... and BTW, no one does soft mode better than Gotway IMHO, other mfr soft modes are not nearly as usable).

But if you do, I think you’ll see what I’m talking about 

(BTW, that’s one of my biggest complaints about the MSX, the softest mode is not soft enough, to properly alleviate fatigue, not to mention unlock way easier maneuvering...  @Tishawn Fahie put me on to Gotway soft mode, and over time, I totally agree with him on the preference.... plus, I think the swingy/soft nature of that the early SoloWheel riders rave about is where Gotway got the idea for their soft mode from... could be wrong)

[xiiijojjo]

Having rode both the msuper v3  for 2000+ miles and now the tesla for 1000 mile (with the same angle of pedals as the MSX i believe) 
i can say with confidence that not only is the msuper v3 pedals easier for beginners and less straining on the muscles. 

the angle of the pedals on the v3 also allows for much quicker brake time in case of having to do a full stop. With the v3 i could just lean back quite far with confidence the tesla  pedals on the other hand naturally prohibit me from leaning quite as much back because of the sudden violent wobble it will result in due to the position of your feet. 

With the angled pedals on my tesla i have also noticed it has scraped quite a bit of colour of my brand new sneakers due to them rubbing against my unicycle because of the awkward angle of my feet, wanting to place them as close to the center of the wheel for stability ( i rode at top speed on these wheels for roughly 90% of their miles and by top speed i mean i disable the first two alarms in the gotway app and only respect the "80% battery draw warning beeps" or what u call them )

some of my friends that had learned to ride the v3 comfortably at 10 km/h had issues with even mounting the tesla with it's angled pedals. 

When i first heard about the MSX first thing i did was to open the ali express app and immediately throw money violently at the screen. luckily it wasn't available yet and i regained  consciousness and some months later i found out it had the angled pedals... Sad day... but now i (and my big fat money-stacks) patiently await the next crazy, fast gotway wheel with the v3 pedal angle. 

It took me about a month adjusting to the tesla and even now i miss my v3 which was finally decommissioned after its 3rd high speed accident - WEAR PROTECTIVE GEAR FOLKS i didn't the first two times but it saved my life the 3rd time.

edit: the grip-tape on the pedals of the tesla is way more durable and in about one year i havn't had to change it and it still grips very well. In the same time-frame on the v3 i had to change in twice. 

also i rode both on their hardest mode for 99% of the time.

[Marty Backe]

40 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@Marcglider I wouldn’t say the hardness of the MSX modes are 100% responsible, but more like 65-75% responsible for the foot fatigue (the rest IMHO is having your feet too close and hugging the EUC body), at least when I’ve swapped onto a friends’ MSX for prolonged ride time..... soft(er) mode(s) significantly improves fatigue to me, as you don’t have to exert as much force for the same power / acceleration / speed continuance... this difference is like 2-3X more pronounced on the MCM5 sport vs soft modes, as I can’t even ride in the MCM5 sport mode any more due to the quick fatigue. 

Now, getting used to navigating the slightly different, and sometimes unsettling feel of soft(est) mode? That’s a different argument (took me awhile to warm up to it... and BTW, no one does soft mode better than Gotway IMHO, other mfr soft modes are not nearly as usable).

But if you do, I think you’ll see what I’m talking about 

(BTW, that’s one of my biggest complaints about the MSX, the softest mode is not soft enough, to properly alleviate fatigue, not to mention unlock way easier maneuvering...  @Tishawn Fahie put me on to Gotway soft mode, and over time, I totally agree with him on the preference.... plus, I think the swingy/soft nature of that the early SoloWheel riders rave about is where Gotway got the idea for their soft mode from... could be wrong)

There's nothing like the older, pre-Tesla, soft modes. Those modes do have a couple disadvantages (for me) that come to mind. Performing a hard acceleration from a stopped position can result in you running off your wheel (don't ask me how I know). Makes reverse transitions much harder and less satisfying.

For cruising I always liked the soft mode, and you arguably get better gas mileage.

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Having rode both the msuper v3  for 2000+ miles and now the tesla for 1000 mile (with the same angle of pedals as the MSX i believe) 
i can say with confidence that not only is the msuper v3 pedals easier for beginners and less straining on the muscles. 

the angle of the pedals on the v3 also allows for much quicker brake time in case of having to do a full stop. With the v3 i could just lean back quite far with confidence the tesla  pedals on the other hand naturally prohibit me from leaning quite as much back because of the sudden violent wobble it will result in due to the position of your feet. 

With the angled pedals on my tesla i have also noticed it has scraped quite a bit of colour of my brand new sneakers due to them rubbing against my unicycle because of the awkward angle of my feet, wanting to place them as close to the center of the wheel for stability ( i rode at top speed on these wheels for roughly 90% of their miles and by top speed i mean i disable the first two alarms in the gotway app and only respect the "80% battery draw warning beeps" or what u call them )

some of my friends that had learned to ride the v3 comfortably at 10 km/h had issues with even mounting the tesla with it's angled pedals. 

When i first heard about the MSX first thing i did was do to the ali express app and immediately threw money violently at the screen. luckily it wasn't available yet and i regained  consciousness and some month later found out it had the angled pedals... Sad day... but now i (and my money-stacks) patiently await the next crazy, fast gotway wheel with the v3 pedal angle. 

It took me about a month adjusting to the tesla and even now i miss my v3 which was finally decommissioned after its 3rd high speed accident - WEAR PROTECTIVE GEAR FOLKS i didn't the first two times but it saved my life the 3rd time.

btw... if some of you inventive people in here came up a kit to get the v3 angled pedals on the MSX i think there are some people that would be interested 

False. The MSX dihedral angle is noticeably larger than the Tesla angle.

FYI 

[eddiemoy]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've had multiple 3+ hour rides on my MSX. Zero problems. I seriously doubt there are physical repercussions.

Clearly many people don't like the angle of these pedals. Yet many people do like them.

The best plan would be to have an option.

At least I have mine, so if Gotway screws it up and goes back to flat pedals, I'm still good.

P.S.  Did people piss and moan when the KS14C was released with pedals that had the same angle? Maybe the early KS16 wheels also had the steep angle?

It's not the few hours I'm concerned with, I'm concerned with longterm, kind of like a runner who gets knee problems.  You won't get them from a few hours, but a a longer term thing.  But I don't ride that much, so I don't know why I care. 

All the KS wheels I own have the same pedal angle.  I like a little angle, I don't like the fat pedals of the inmotion v10f.  KS is in the middle, MSX is on the extreme angle side.  Inmotion is on the no angle side.  

[xiiijojjo]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

False. The MSX dihedral angle is noticeably larger than the Tesla angle.

FYI 

That's even worse then 

[Marcglider]

For those who have decided after some time that they just hate the dihedral on the pedals, @mrelwood posted a little while back how he filed down the stop area so the pedals were flatter... he hated the MSX at first, did the mod and it grew on him so after like 2 weeks he was raving about it... My suggestion would be to give it a little time, and then try doing a mod if you really hate the feel of them... for me it was putting thin upper pads that did the trick... that would not work for those using the after market angled pads to get more leverage for climbing hills... I had @JES ride my Tesla a while back and he did not like it... he rode it again 2 weeks ago with the pads changed, he felt like it was a totally different wheel, liked it and was going to buy one but Jason is out of stock now and price increase...

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

There's nothing like the older, pre-Tesla, soft modes. Those modes do have a couple disadvantages (for me) that come to mind. Performing a hard acceleration from a stopped position can result in you running off your wheel (don't ask me how I know). 

Hmmm... I've only recently grown a love for Gotway soft mode, so can't speak in detail, but I know I tend to pump left-and-right, side-to-side to build up the acceleration, similar feeling to pedaling a manual bicycle when accelerating from rest.

 

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Makes reverse transitions much harder and less satisfying.

Definitely the one drawback about the overall Gotway feel is that it doesn't lend itself as well to pendulums as the more rubbery gyro feels of King Song or InMotion.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

It's not the few hours I'm concerned with, I'm concerned with longterm, kind of like a runner who gets knee problems.  You won't get them from a few hours, but a a longer term thing.  But I don't ride that much, so I don't know why I care. 

All the KS wheels I own have the same pedal angle.  I like a little angle, I don't like the fat pedals of the inmotion v10f.  KS is in the middle, MSX is on the extreme angle side.  Inmotion is on the no angle side.  

I'm curious, did you ever ride any of the older KS wheels with the much steeper pedals than what's currently shipping?

I do understand your health concern, but given the relatively short about of time on these wheels I do wonder if the body can be affected. Lets return to this topic in 10-years 

[Marty Backe]

21 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Hmmm... I've only recently grown a love for Gotway soft mode, so can't speak in detail, but I know I tend to pump left-and-right, side-to-side to build up the acceleration, similar feeling to pedaling a manual bicycle when accelerating from rest.

 

Definitely the one drawback about the overall Gotway feel is that it doesn't lend itself as well to pendulums as the more rubbery gyro feels of King Song or InMotion.

I'm referring to your initial start. With the older super-soft mode, if you launched the wheel from a stop and did a hard learn the wheel response would be too slow and you'd fall off the front of the wheel. Very embarrassing when it happened at a crosswalk 

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm curious, did you ever ride any of the older KS wheels with the much steeper pedals than what's currently shipping?

I do understand your health concern, but given the relatively short about of time on these wheels I do wonder if the body can be affected. Lets return to this topic in 10-years 

No, the oldest KS I own or rode was the 16 non S.  Think there is a reason they discontinued the pedal angle on the 14C.  

[eddiemoy]

22 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Hmmm... I've only recently grown a love for Gotway soft mode, so can't speak in detail, but I know I tend to pump left-and-right, side-to-side to build up the acceleration, similar feeling to pedaling a manual bicycle when accelerating from rest.

 

Definitely the one drawback about the overall Gotway feel is that it doesn't lend itself as well to pendulums as the more rubbery gyro feels of King Song or InMotion.

ease of doing idling is related to how small the wheel is.  The bigger the wheel the harder it is to do.  I cannot do endless idling on any of the 18" wheels.  I find it the easiest on the 14D I bought for my son.  I've seen people do idling really easily on the mten3 like it is nothing.  it was also fairly easy to do it on the Tesla.  Though I do have issues maintaining it on the V10F.

[houseofjob]

14 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

ease of doing idling is related to how small the wheel is.  The bigger the wheel the harder it is to do.  I cannot do endless idling on any of the 18" wheels.  I find it the easiest on the 14D I bought for my son.  I've seen people do idling really easily on the mten3 like it is nothing.  it was also fairly easy to do it on the Tesla.  Though I do have issues maintaining it on the V10F.

This is not idling I'm talking about, I'm moving, even if it's super slow, or in an unnoticeable circle.

I use pendulums for every detail of my daily riding, however small in motion, especially at slow speeds and change of pace.

Bigger / heavier wheels actually make this much easier in my daily riding experience (sidewalk/pedestrian riding, etc.), because the wheel has slower momentum of falling, so I can counter-lean my body in the opposite direction the wheel is falling. Smaller / lighter wheels require you to move faster for such motion, but you don't even have to attempt this because you can just cut-turn / flip-flop the wheel instead (either way, going slowly, either you or the wheel needs to have more motion).

 

[Adel]

9 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Working with Gotway on making some adjustments to the next MSX production. There's been a fair amount of feedback on the pedal bank angle,  most owners aren't thrilled about the steep 15° inward bank angle. There's the opportunity to have the pedals changed to a 7° bank . Please provide your feedback, if you think this is a worthwhile improvement. 

Special thanks to @Adel for bringing the topic to focus.

 

@Jason McNeil, As much as I like the change, I also know some riders who prefer the current setup so it’s probably best to leave pedals as they are to on the MSX to also save you headaches of incompatible parts as we currently have simple documented solution that people can implement if they are not happy with the current setup. Speaking only for myself, I’m very glad that I was able to mod the pedals to fix the angle and it’s relatively simple that anybody else can do if they want.

 

[Marty Backe]

50 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

This is not idling I'm talking about, I'm moving, even if it's super slow, or in an unnoticeable circle.

I use pendulums for every detail of my daily riding, however small in motion, especially at slow speeds and change of pace.

Bigger / heavier wheels actually make this much easier in my daily riding experience (sidewalk/pedestrian riding, etc.), because the wheel has slower momentum of falling, so I can counter-lean my body in the opposite direction the wheel is falling. Smaller / lighter wheels require you to move faster for such motion, but you don't even have to attempt this because you can just cut-turn / flip-flop the wheel instead (either way, going slowly, either you or the wheel needs to have more motion).

 

It's fascinating how we all use and experience our wheels in such different ways. They are marvelous machines.

[The Wheel Plug]

I love the pedal angle for this wheel. It helps me keep a hold on the wheel and i wouldn't trade the pedal height for anything. It's nearly impossible to scrape! It took a solid couple weeks to adjust to, but now it's comfy  i think changing it back would be taking a step back from progress, this is how you can have amazing pedal clearance while still placing the center of balance low.

[Mrd777]

I really enjoy riding all my wheels with very little contact on the pads. The MSX forces you to make contact on the pads which becomes uncomfortable on your calf. The wheel preforms beautifully with this angle, the problem is it forces you to rub on the pads.