Experience learning on the Z10 from a newer rider's perspective

[GaperMaster]

Hi All,

I've been reading this forum and learning lots of valuable information for a few months as I've dove into the EUC world, so I wanted to contribute with my perspective after recently purchasing a Z10. I think I have a bit of a more unique perspective than some of the vets that hopefully some can relate to.

Background: I started riding only a few weeks ago by buying and sharing a used Ninebot S1 with my friend. Learning to mount the EUC was definitely tougher than I was expecting, but I think I was able to pick it up at an average pace (2 sessions of about 45 minutes). However, I once I was able to mount properly, I was able to advance at a relatively quicker pace, within 2 weeks, I could ride in traffic, ride at slow foot traffic speeds in crowds, pendulum, and ride around town backwards. 

Ninebot Z10 Experience: After watching every Ninebot Z10 video out and reading every forum post in preparation for the Z10, I received the wheel last week. As many say, it's a beast and a huge change from the small, light and nimble S1. So my first impression of the Z10, was that it seemed EXTREMELY easy to mount and ride at a basic level (straight). The thing just stays upright on its own and the huge pedals in comparison to the S1 make it seem like cheating. I get the feeling that just learning to mount on the Z would've been possible in minutes compared to learning on an S1. But only if one was willing to drop a $2000 EUC and mess up the beautiful cosmetics haha.

After the initial mounting and getting rid of the speed limiter, I began learning the wheel at higher speeds and trying to push the wheel a bit more. This is where my experience differs from a lot of what I've read and watched. For me, I definitely initially felt the strange sensation where the wheel wants to almost go the opposite direction of the direction you want to turn when moving at speed. However, within seconds I felt it was pretty easy to understand how to handle the wheel and turn at speed. The wheel seemed very intuitive to me with how its turning physics work at speed, as you just use your weight shifts to turn the wheel instead of dipping the pedals like the S1. Maybe it's because I have had little experience with other EUC's, but I personally would say people should remove this "learning curve" from their analysis when looking to purchase the Z10. It is negligible when compared to other factors in how it will affect you. Focus on range, speed, weight, handling physics, wheel diameter, reliability, etc when looking to buy.

However, for me, the weirdest performing part of this wheel was the low speed performance. Maybe because I have not ridden larger wheels, but I agree with SpeedyFeet's assessment that the wheel handling took a much longer adjustment period at low speeds and was not intuitive for me. I learned on the S1 by riding on single person width sidewalks in my town house complex. From the rave reviews that I've read about low-speed Z10 handling, I thought I would easily be able to navigate through the sidewalks with no issue. However, it was not so easy, and I'm still not fully comfortable navigating on the Z10. This is because, I feel the Z10 has 2 modes. The extremely low-speed mode where it can tip and dip like the S1 and the higher speed inertia mode where it wants to stay upright (which actually kicks in at pretty low speeds). Both modes are easy to understand when you are in them, however, transitioning between the two is the hard part. I find that I need to often go from the slow speed mode into the inertia mode and back down when navigating at low speed in tight spaces. This was the hard part, especially when coming out of a really tight 90 degree turn at low speed on a single person track sidewalk, and suddenly transitioning into a situation where the wheel all of a sudden wants to stay upright and you need to use the high-speed techniques to maneuver the wheel. I think this may be the hardest part for people to get used to when learning a Z10. Maybe this is not a common scenario, since in open spaces you don't have to worry as much about this constant transition, but i could see this being an issue in extremely crowded pedestrian traffic for instance where you have to do constant tight/quick turns at slow speeds. Also there are many very tight zig/zag ramps which lead to overpass bridges in my area. I foresee it being a bit of an issue there. 

The second issue I experienced was with regards to sloped riding. The roads that I ride have a pretty aggressive slope for rain runoff at the edges where the bike lanes are located. The first time I took the Z10 out on a busy road, the strange handling on the slope nearly ran me directly into traffic. As mentioned before, the Z10 wants to stay upright, so even on a slope to the right, the Z10 will stay upright instead of leaning to the right, which I was used to on the S1 (also from riding skateboards this is what I am used to). This, for some reason, lead to a sensation where the wheel felt like it was turning left into traffic instead of staying on the right side in the bike lane. It's definitely a strange sensation compared to the S1 where you expect to position your body perpendicular to the slope. If you are used to riding a skateboard or snowsports in bowls or halfpipes where you really want to position your body perpendicular against the slope, it will feel strange. I learned that the Z10 is better if you almost treat the slope as a flat since the wheel will just want to stay upright and will handle as if upright even on embankments. I've also learned at low-speed you can apply this. On my S1 if I wanted to do an extremely tight turn, I would dip the inner pedal really low (almost scrape) to get as tight as possible. With the Z10, you can almost turn the thing upright without any dipping of the pedal almost like you are walking instead of riding a vehicle. The low speed handling definitely had to be re-learned for me after being used to the S1.

With regards to high speed handling, it's been very intuitive and very fun. I have been able to take it high speed over really sketchy terrain with no problems. Also, slaloming at high speed is very stable and natural. I could ride at 15-18 mph through an chopped up grass field and dirt gravel while slaloming very aggressively on my second session of riding. So fun! On flat pavement, I definitely am definitely getting wobbles at higher speeds, so I am not pushing this thing to max speeds yet. However, I think wobbles are something that I just need to get used to, since I've never ridden a performance EUC before with this much weight and power. I find the more I ride, it's easy for the brain to understand the wobbles and how to handle them, and I can become comfortable with more speed over time.

Conclusion: My main complaint with the Z10 is the low speed performance handling (is that even a thing?). I wish the wheel would handle like an S1 at below 12 mph and then transition to the higher speed inertia handling at higher speeds, but the transition seems to happen at about 5 mph in reality. So I feel myself getting pulled in ways I'm not expecting during this transition period, and I don't have as much control as on the nimbler S1. Maybe it's not a realistic expectation. I'd be interested in trying other 18 inch wheels on these same sidewalks. 

I don't have much to compare the Z10 to in regards to high speed capability, but I'm very happy with the Z10 in this regards. It reminds me of snowboarding and skating bowls where I am constantly pumping my legs, and shifting my weight around to maneuver, and it's a blast. I guess if you want to have a very lazy riding style when traveling at high speeds, the Z10 is not for you. I found myself getting pretty bored just riding the S1 partly due to the lack of speed but also because slaloming and maneuvering felt "too easy" and "not right" if that makes any sense. The Z10 feels like I'm riding some powder on skis or a snowboard while the S1 feels like riding a bike is maybe the best way to describe it. It's easy to do all the maneuvers on a bicycle that you can do on a skis or a snowboard with way less work, but it just doesn't really feel as exciting or exhilarating to do it.

Hope this helps people looking into buying a Z10 or at least gives a unique perspective. 

 

[Elder Meat]

I haven't gotten to the "high speed" stage yet, but what you describe sounds like gyroscopic precession and is what all motorcycles and bicycles experience. At low speeds you pull the handle to turn in that direction, and at higher speeds you push the handle to turn in that direction. It sounds counterintuitive and some may even argue that isn't the case, but it's what they're doing at speed. They just don't realize it because it's become unconscious muscle memory. 

[Marty Backe]

Very interesting, and thanks for taking the time to offer your experience.

After two weeks you're riding around town backwards  You must have innate natural skills. Lucky you 

This whole slow speed thing is definitely confusing to me. At this point I'm not even sure what the problem is. Let's say you are riding on a typical sidewalk and you need to do a 180 to go in the opposite direction. You slow down, do the turn, and proceed at your desired speed. Is this a slow speed movement that you are saying is not a great experience?

Or you are riding on a sidewalk that takes a sharp 90-degree turn that you need to navigate, obviously at a slow speed. Is that what you're talking about?

[GaperMaster]

Hi Elder Meat. Yes, that's probably what happening. It just happens at very low speeds which I guess is why it's a little tough to get used to. For example, the S1 handles the same way all the way up to it's max speed of 12 mph. The Z10 switches it's handling dynamics at 5 mph. Maybe it's due to the compactness and weight. But this is what requires your brain to be very nimble and realize which mode you are in very quickly. I'm used to changes in handling at much higher speeds I guess. When it happens so immediately and often at low speeds, it's very taxing on the brain. But, I agree that it's becoming unconscious for me, and I'm slowly adjusting, but it's the "weirdest" handling part of the Z in my opinion. It is also the only thing that has caused me to dump it.

Hi Marty. Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a natural though. I think I'm just drawing on decades of board sports. If I was a natural, I would've been able to immediately hop on the thing and ride off into the sunset after watching all those youtube tutorials like I envisioned in my head.  That definitely did not happen. My friend's S1 has taken such a beating that we should get convicted with a felony in court.

Regarding your scenarios. I'm talking more about the second one. Imagine riding a 3 foot wide sidewalk (very narrow) and having to make a 3 90 degree turns with maybe 5 feet between turns in a zig zag pattern while also avoiding a person if they happen to be on the sidewalk too. I got to the point of being able to do this very comfortably with the S1 because I can just kind of dip my left pedal, dip the right pedal, dip the left pedal and slow down and speed up as necessary (if someone randomly shows up) in that process. I feel very in control like I could ride it in a sea of people if I really had to. 

If I try this on the Z10, i'll dip the left pedal to make the first 90 degree turn, if I speed up accidentally a little too much (> 5mph) before I need to dip the right pedal, it won't dip because it's in the "high speed mode". The wheel want to go straight (and even veer the opposite direction) and not allow me to do the quick 90 degree turn. This has lead to me hopping off the thing to save an innocent person from getting bowled over by a 50 lb hunk of metal a few times. Either that or I've had to grab it before it goes meandering off the sidewalk into someone's flower garden haha. Luckily this is only at low speeds, so no harm no foul. But it describes the main issue which is, this low speed switching of handling characteristics. I'm finding my brain adjusting now to knowing where this "switch" happens and naturally knowing what to do. However, there is definitely a change that maybe the Z10 veterans have fully adjusted to and don't notice anymore. Or maybe my technique at low speeds is wrong, I'm always learning more about the wheel. I could've built up some bad habits on the S1, but it works with that wheel. These are just my personal experience.   

 

 

[Marty Backe]

46 minutes ago, GaperMaster said:

Hi Elder Meat. Yes, that's probably what happening. It just happens at very low speeds which I guess is why it's a little tough to get used to. For example, the S1 handles the same way all the way up to it's max speed of 12 mph. The Z10 switches it's handling dynamics at 5 mph. Maybe it's due to the compactness and weight. But this is what requires your brain to be very nimble and realize which mode you are in very quickly. I'm used to changes in handling at much higher speeds I guess. When it happens so immediately and often at low speeds, it's very taxing on the brain. But, I agree that it's becoming unconscious for me, and I'm slowly adjusting, but it's the "weirdest" handling part of the Z in my opinion. It is also the only thing that has caused me to dump it.

Hi Marty. Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a natural though. I think I'm just drawing on decades of board sports. If I was a natural, I would've been able to immediately hop on the thing and ride off into the sunset after watching all those youtube tutorials like I envisioned in my head.  That definitely did not happen. My friend's S1 has taken such a beating that we should get convicted with a felony in court.

Regarding your scenarios. I'm talking more about the second one. Imagine riding a 3 foot wide sidewalk (very narrow) and having to make a 3 90 degree turns with maybe 5 feet between turns in a zig zag pattern while also avoiding a person if they happen to be on the sidewalk too. I got to the point of being able to do this very comfortably with the S1 because I can just kind of dip my left pedal, dip the right pedal, dip the left pedal and slow down and speed up as necessary (if someone randomly shows up) in that process. I feel very in control like I could ride it in a sea of people if I really had to. 

If I try this on the Z10, i'll dip the left pedal to make the first 90 degree turn, if I speed up accidentally a little too much (> 5mph) before I need to dip the right pedal, it won't dip because it's in the "high speed mode". The wheel want to go straight (and even veer the opposite direction) and not allow me to do the quick 90 degree turn. This has lead to me hopping off the thing to save an innocent person from getting bowled over by a 50 lb hunk of metal a few times. Either that or I've had to grab it before it goes meandering off the sidewalk into someone's flower garden haha. Luckily this is only at low speeds, so no harm no foul. But it describes the main issue which is, this low speed switching of handling characteristics. I'm finding my brain adjusting now to knowing where this "switch" happens and naturally knowing what to do. However, there is definitely a change that maybe the Z10 veterans have fully adjusted to and don't notice anymore. Or maybe my technique at low speeds is wrong, I'm always learning more about the wheel. I could've built up some bad habits on the S1, but it works with that wheel. These are just my personal experience.   

 

 

I'll have to experiment in my driveway with a virtual maze. But nothing about turning the Z10 has struck me as difficult in any way. Hmmm.

I will say that there is very little dipping of pedals when turning, compared to more traditional EUCs. This is why scraping the Z10 pedals is essentially non-existent. You don't experience pedal scrapes do you?

[GaperMaster]

I haven't scraped my pedals on the Z10. To make very tight turns on the S1, I sometimes could and have scraped the pedal. However, on the Z10,  in low speed mode I can dip pretty low, and if I didn't control it, I could scrape the pedal. 

But I mentioned in my initial post, that I'm finding that I can turn without dipping at all on the Z10. Maybe this is the technique that you veterans have been using. This is definitely something unintuitive coming from the S1 as there's no way it would be possible on the S1 to turn as tightly without pedal dip. So it may just be a question of technique. Maybe I never need to enter this "low-speed mode" of dipping the Z10 and can always ride at slightly higher speeds where the wheel stays upright. I'll have to experiment with how tightly I can turn using this technique. It'll definitely take time to get used to, but it is probably the answer.

Just like my solution to handling embankments, it seems like I just need to keep this wheel upright no matter what situation I find myself in. It seems to be able to magically maneuver through anything while staying upright which is quite amazing! I guess I'm more used to tilting and dipping at low speeds which is why it has been an adjustment for me. Others maybe are more used to tilting at higher speeds which explains the adjustment period for them there. Either way, I'm looking forward to learning how to control this beast better at low speeds and increase my top-end speed comfort too. 

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'll have to experiment in my driveway with a virtual maze. But nothing about turning the Z10 has struck me as difficult in any way. Hmmm.

I will say that there is very little dipping of pedals when turning, compared to more traditional EUCs. This is why scraping the Z10 pedals is essentially non-existent. You don't experience pedal scrapes do you?

trust me, i suck at turning around in my driveway. the z10 is without a doubt the best on slow speed turns in my soon to be going out the door tmrw stable.

try an 18s or next worse v10f, then tell me the z10 slow speed handling sucks. i slow down a hair too much on the 18s and it’s like timber! i’m falling over and it’s pushing. and the turning with the 18s and to a lesser degree because it’s not as top heavy, u need to be chubby checkers with the twist. 

the z10’s most unusual good characteristic is it’s slow speed handling. i’ve never seen a gotway or ridden one.

[GaperMaster]

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

trust me, i suck at turning around in my driveway. the z10 is without a doubt the best on slow speed turns in my soon to be going out the door tmrw stable.

try an 18s or next worse v10f, then tell me the z10 slow speed handling sucks. i slow down a hair too much on the 18s and it’s like timber! i’m falling over and it’s pushing. and the turning with the 18s and to a lesser degree because it’s noy as top heavy, u need to be chubby checkers with the twist. 

the z10’s most unusual good characteristic is it’s slow speed handling. i’ve never seen a gotway or ridden one.

Hi novazeus.

Thanks for adding your input. 

I admit I haven't tried any other 18 inch wheels, so you are probably right. Keep in mind, I'm comparing an 18 inch wheel 50+ lb to a 14 inch 25 lb wheel, so I may just have unrealistic expectations which I've admitted. I'm just relaying my personal experience which seems to differ from the majority. I can only say, personally, I felt very comfortable controlling the Z10 and turning at higher speeds, and very uncomfortable maneuvering it at lower speeds coming from an S1. 

But it's highly likely if you put me on a larger Gotway, King Song, or Inmotion wheel, and I'd drive straight into my neighbor's flower garden. 

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, GaperMaster said:

I haven't scraped my pedals on the Z10. To make very tight turns on the S1, I sometimes could and have scraped the pedal. However, on the Z10,  in low speed mode I can dip pretty low, and if I didn't control it, I could scrape the pedal. 

But I mentioned in my initial post, that I'm finding that I can turn without dipping at all on the Z10. Maybe this is the technique that you veterans have been using. This is definitely something unintuitive coming from the S1 as there's no way it would be possible on the S1 to turn as tightly without pedal dip. So it may just be a question of technique. Maybe I never need to enter this "low-speed mode" of dipping the Z10 and can always ride at slightly higher speeds where the wheel stays upright. I'll have to experiment with how tightly I can turn using this technique. It'll definitely take time to get used to, but it is probably the answer.

Just like my solution to handling embankments, it seems like I just need to keep this wheel upright no matter what situation I find myself in. It seems to be able to magically maneuver through anything while staying upright which is quite amazing! I guess I'm more used to tilting and dipping at low speeds which is why it has been an adjustment for me. Others maybe are more used to tilting at higher speeds which explains the adjustment period for them there. Either way, I'm looking forward to learning how to control this beast better at low speeds and increase my top-end speed comfort too. 

I think you're onto the proper solution. Slow-speed turning with the Z10 is much more of a twisting motion (very little dipping of the pedal). It's like you're pivoting on the tire.

You can't know this, but the Z10 handles very much like the 10-inch Mten3 which I've been riding for ages. It's also very similar (but to a lesser degree than the Mten3) to the Monster, a wheel I've also been riding for ages.

This probably contributes to my almost-zero learning curve when getting the Z10.

So if you ever get a Mten3, you'll feel right at home 

[novazeus]

54 pounds 10 ounces naked is what the z10 weighs.

i love it more if it weighed 50. seems like evry pound over fifty feels like 3 pounds. my right arm is getting bigger.

 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

You can't know this, but the Z10 handles very much like the 10-inch Mten3 which I've been riding for ages.

Ages? Since we received our Mten3s around the same date I’m now feelin old. 

[Marty Backe]

21 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Ages? Since we received our Mten3s around the same date I’m now feelin old. 

It's been slightly over a year ago that we all got that shipment from Green Fashion. Seems like ages 

[Rehab1]

17 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's been slightly over a year ago that we all got that shipment from Green Fashion. Seems like ages 

7 months since my accident and it seems like yesterday.