RockyTop Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 The van numbers are documented numbers and the EUC numbers are predicted. I know that you can get into some additional high fees for parking and storage for a car in the big cities. Cost of 2007 E350 1 ton van USA 100,000 miles Van $18,000 plus tax $1440 pus tag four years $128 plus Emissions four years $40 = $19,608 insurance $89 per month at 48 months $4,272 gas mileage 13 mpg $2.50 per gallon = $19,230 3 sets of tires at $580 $1,740 19 oil changes at $58 $1,102 air filters wiper blades signal light $242 only repair shiftier linkage $320 total cost $46,514 Then sold van for $3,500 End cost $43,014 that is $0.43 per mile Cost of 2011 ford Transit Connect mini van USA 96,000 miles Note: This vehicle was absolute junk. Could not go 5,000 mile without changing a battery or tire or repair. In the end it through a rod at 96,000 miles and was picked up for scrap metal. I am in a 2015 Ford Transit connect now and it is so much better all around. 86,000 miles so far. No repair yet but it is going to need CV joints soon. Van $23,000 plus tax $1,840 plus tag four years $128 plus emissions four years $40 = $25,008 insurance $89 per month at 48 months $4,272 gas mileage 19 mpg $2,50 per gallon $12,631 17 special tires ( front right every 19,000 miles ) nightmare $2,720 19 oil changes $58 $1,102 air filter, belts, wiper blades, head lights , signal lights $432 brake pads and rotors 4 times $970 $3,880 Battery every 11 months $120 $480 Repairs: coil pack $480 wheel bearing $1,264 wiper motor $357 $2,101 total cost $52,626 trough a rod at 96,000 miles, scrap picked up for free, End cost 52,626 = $0.55 per mile Estimated cost of MSuper 5,000 miles MSuper $1,880 1 tires and 2 tubes $120 ??? board ??? this is guessing future repair $220 Total $2220 sell for $300 end cost $1,920 ($0.38) plus charging at $0.01 per mile = $0.39 per mile Summery E350 1Ton work van $0.43 per mile MSuper $0.39 per mile MSuper has yet to prove it's numbers and the vans are real documented numbers. I think you could do better with a KS16s but I know you could do better with a Honda Civic ( $23,000 at 28mpg and better resale at 100.000 miles) MPGe of EUC’s - Related post on electric miles per gallon equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMania Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 2 hours ago, RockyTop said: The van numbers are documented numbers and the EUC numbers are predicted. I know that you can get into some additional high fees for parking and storage for a car in the big cities. Cost of 2007 E350 1 ton van USA 100,000 miles Van $18,000 plus tax $1440 pus tag four years $128 plus Emissions four years $40 = $19,608 insurance $89 per month at 48 months $4,272 gas mileage 13 mpg $2.50 per gallon = $19,230 3 sets of tires at $580 $1,740 19 oil changes at $58 $1,102 air filters wiper blades signal light $242 only repair shiftier linkage $320 total cost $46,514 Then sold van for $3,500 End cost $43,014 that is $0.43 per mile Cost of 2011 ford Transit Connect mini van USA 96,000 miles Note: This vehicle was absolute junk. Could not go 5,000 mile without changing a battery or tire or repair. In the end it through a rod at 96,000 miles and was picked up for scrap metal. I am in a 2015 Ford Transit connect now and it is so much better all around. 86,000 miles so far. No repair yet but it is going to need CV joints soon. Van $23,000 plus tax $1,840 plus tag four years $128 plus emissions four years $40 = $25,008 insurance $89 per month at 48 months $4,272 gas mileage 19 mpg $2,50 per gallon $12,631 17 special tires ( front right every 19,000 miles ) nightmare $2,720 19 oil changes $58 $1,102 air filter, belts, wiper blades, head lights , signal lights $432 brake pads and rotors 4 times $970 $3,880 Battery every 11 months $120 $480 Repairs: coil pack $480 wheel bearing $1,264 wiper motor $357 $2,101 total cost $52,626 trough a rod at 96,000 miles, scrap picked up for free, End cost 52,626 = $0.55 per mile Estimated cost of MSuper 5,000 miles MSuper $1,880 1 tires and 2 tubes $120 ??? board ??? this is guessing future repair $220 Total $2220 sell for $300 end cost $1,920 ($0.38) plus charging at $0.01 per mile = $0.39 per mile Summery E350 1Ton work van $.043 per mile MSuper $0.39 per mile MSuper has yet to prove it's numbers and the vans are real documented numbers. I think you could do better with a KS16s but I know you could do better with a Honda Civic ( $23,000 at 28mpg and better resale at 100.000 miles) You have to include the lost income as a cost to cars. For example, The E350 van you paid 19600 in 2007. If you had not bought it, but invest in stock market, then you could have easily earn 5% return rate. Thus your lost income is about 19600*1.05^11 - 19600= 13922 dollars or 13922/100000 = 0.14/mile added to your number. So cost for E350 is 0.57 $/mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 My IRA lost money in 2007 and barely recovered by 2014 but I get your point. And it is a good point. Most people would have to pay interest on a loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 A few things that under-value the EUC here in my eyes: - Since the cars are also repaired by replacing the smallest part possible, a better comparison would be to replace the few Mosfets on the predictedly burned Msuper board. Cost: $2 + labour. - Predicting a maintenance cost of 12% of the vehicle price is quite steep. The old Msuper is notorious, I know, but once the first week is done the burned boards are still a rarity. - Would/did you really sell the Msuper for $300? Sounds alarmingly cheap. Unless you broke an axle or such it still has many many thousand miles ahead. Or atleast a price tag 2-3 times that. (Or am I totally lost on the used EUC pricing?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 $ 300 is cheap for a MSuper with 5,000 miles. I was looking at other wheels with 2,500 miles for $600 and guessed. I am not sure it will be worth much more after I get done with it. @mrelwood what is your KS16 worth now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who_the Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Agree with costs and analysis, though I'd predict your MSuper shell frame, not the board, will be the component that fails first. I've taken two MSV3's to 4,000+ miles, and both shell frames have required replacement. Both boards were both going strong at that point. The axles on the older QJ motors are also very likely to fail around the same time. The thicker axles on the current HB motors hold up better in my experience. Anyone who buys a used MSuper is advised to open the case and inspect the plastic around the pedal hangers on both sides. This has been the consistent point of failure on nearly all of the high-mileage or heavily-used MSV3's that I've known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, who_the said: Anyone who buys a used MSuper is advised to open the case and inspect the plastic around the pedal hangers on both sides. This has been the consistent point of failure on nearly all of the high-mileage or heavily-used MSV3's that I've known. Thanks, will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 16, 2018 Author Share Posted September 16, 2018 Adjusted 2007 E350 Ford van loan interest with 680 credit score $4,120 + Lost investment $1,200 ( keep in mind we are on a payment plan now, Kinda pay as you go. Investment loss is kinda a stretch) $43,014 + $4,120 + $1,200 = 48,334 = $0.49 per mile Adjusted MSuper resale price $600 , end price $1,620 $0.32 per mile plus $0.01 for charge = $0.33 per mile ( We are talking One Ton Work van with 13 mpg not Honda Civics or Toyota Corolla) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Why not compare running costs to a cheap bicycle? Bet that would be a shock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 My most expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 600 / 600 km ≈ 1 EUR / km My least expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 900 / 7000 km ≈ 0.13 EUR / km EDIT: Taking into account the remaining value of the EUCs, the numbers are maybe 30% lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Nic said: Why not compare running costs to a cheap bicycle? Bet that would be a shock! Well? If we go back to 1980 I bought a Ross bike for $5 and put $10 into it. I know I got over 5,000 miles out of it before I sold it for $50. I might have had to buy tires and tubes for it. But I am sure I would still be in the positive numbers. In the last 10 years though I have spent thousands on bikes and have only put thousands of miles on the bikes so a $1 per mile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mono said: My most expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 600 / 600 km ≈ 1 EUR / km My least expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 900 / 7000 km ≈ 0.13 EUR / km I like your math! At mile 13 on my KS16 I thought to myself, I am at $100 per mile so far! Let's see if I can improve that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 The median price of a new car is an insane $28,000, coincidentally also the median price for the cost of a wedding although only one of those do you pay a premium buying used. I've done rough calculations for all my wheels and there seems to be an optimal spot between wheel price and wheel speed if you're calculating cost per mile. In my opinion this is somewhat inaccurate. Instead, compare how long the trip takes by car versus by EUC, determine if that's actually feasible by EUC, and then compare those two modes per trip costs. While the EUC comes out ahead, often insanely low, the auto can do things that no EUC can do, and it's these trips where the value of the auto comes apparent. Finally, if we look at all these modes of transportation strictly by cost, we have an artificially low cost of cars because they are allowed to pollute wherever they please. A pollution tax would be quite high. https://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/new-jersey-suffers-health-climate-costs-from-vehicle-pollution/article_459bca08-eafd-5a09-b88e-3af2ec343ba7.html While you might pay $30 for a tank of gas, it actually costs an extra $18 in health related costs (I think this is much too low; another study showed a direct link between diabetes and air pollution costing somewhere north of 50 billion per year). Because every historical record shows a dramatic decrease in quality of life and population numbers once a civilization permanently degrades their environment (Easter island, Mayans, Greenland, Iceland, Anasazi, Rwanda, Haiti), it follows continuing to use our cars is much much more expensive than these figures suggest. I think the biggest challenge of the 21st century will be to stop the utter destruction of most of our exosystems, and if we can turn back our road + car centric society then we'll probably solve most of that challenge. Unfortunately, so far, we're accelerating that trend by everyone trying to get into a 1st world lifestyle. If you look around at where you live, and you ask yourself, "where's all the lichen?", then that's probably a great indication that you're a pack a day smoker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMania Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Mono said: My most expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 600 / 600 km ≈ 1 EUR / km My least expensive EUC is currently at about EUR 900 / 7000 km ≈ 0.13 EUR / km Correct calculation must include your EUC's current market price. Example: Your expensive EUC's cost is Eur 600 - its current price, say Euro 400 = Euro 200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, LanghamP said: https://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/new-jersey-suffers-health-climate-costs-from-vehicle-pollution/article_459bca08-eafd-5a09-b88e-3af2ec343ba7.html While you might pay $30 for a tank of gas, it actually costs an extra $18 in health related costs (I think this is much too low; another study showed a direct link between diabetes and air pollution costing somewhere north of 50 billion per year). Because every historical record shows a dramatic decrease in quality of life and population numbers once a civilization permanently degrades their environment (Easter island, Mayans, Greenland, Iceland, Anasazi, Rwanda, Haiti), it follows continuing to use our cars is much much more expensive than these figures suggest. I think the biggest challenge of the 21st century will be to stop the utter destruction of most of our exosystems, and if we can turn back our road + car centric society then we'll probably solve most of that challenge. Unfortunately, so far, we're accelerating that trend by everyone trying to get into a 1st world lifestyle. If you look around at where you live, and you ask yourself, "where's all the lichen?", then that's probably a great indication that you're a pack a day smoker. I read the article and can't take it seriously. As always no facts involved. You could spill your drink at the beach and get blamed for high tide. I believe that pollution is bad and we need to do something about it but when they get caught in lie after lie I stop listening to them. They always state 3 facts that have nothing to do with each other and wait for you to connect them. If they want me to believe them they need to stop lying. Non Political Example: 1) I have earned well over 2 million dollars. 2) I can live nicely on the internist of 2 million dollars. 3) I could quit my job today and never work again. Even though all three statements are true. I spent the money as I earned it, I can quit my job but I would be homeless. ----Time after time they pull BS numbers out of the air. I could give endless real numbers but it would get way to political so I digress. No reply will be given--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 @mrelwood You got me thanking. My evaluation stems from the fact that I will not get 5,000 miles on my wheel in 5 years. By then the batteries will likely be shot. So I might need to sell sooner. I can see that the more miles you get out of it in a year the better the numbers will be. 28 minutes ago, EUCMania said: Correct calculation must include your EUC's current market price. Example: Your expensive EUC's cost is Eur 600 - its current price, say Euro 400 = Euro 200 Yeah?! But your math does not encourage you to ride more, ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 7 hours ago, RockyTop said: @mrelwood what is your KS16 worth now? I’ve been trying to think about that. If I’d sell, I’d buy another 14-16 wheel, which I’d have to modify and make for the better as well. While my 16S cost only $1100 new, I wouldn’t even consider selling it for $300 (~5000 miles in). To me it is muuch more valuable. Proper charging methods and the few years shouldn’t tax the battery all that much in my understanding. Another point: Especially since getting the MSX with a big enough battery, my car usage has dropped down next to nothing. So, most of my car’s $/mile should be reducted from my EUC’s $/mile, which would turn it into an income! There are too many variables to be very precise with the calculations, but in case my attitude showed up wrong, I really like what you did here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMania Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Most family needs a car anyway. The only way to save by using EUC is if it can replace one car or more. A car typically cost $5000 to $8000/year.. So the saving is obvious if an EUC can substitute a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 7 hours ago, EUCMania said: Correct calculation must include your EUC's current market price. Example: Your expensive EUC's cost is Eur 600 - its current price, say Euro 400 = Euro 200 True, that's the main reason why I wrote "currently", these calculations are upper bounds, as long as I don't invest any money in repair or maintenance. I don't think I could sell "my expensive EUC" for anything close to EUR 400 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 8 hours ago, mrelwood said: but in case my attitude showed up wrong, I really like what you did here! Not at all. Good points. Thank you. I did not expect people to like my results. I just hate see people in need selling the family car that they truly need to save money. In some cases it might be a great idea. If you live in the city and do not need to leave it then it can still make sense. Car storage and parking can cost more than your housing in some places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai-lad Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 If you get 40 miles per charge on a 1000 Wh wheel, and 500 re-charges per battery, you should be able to get 20,000 miles from a new EUC before junking it. That's assuming the rest of the unit holds up. My own cost for electricity is only about 10 cents per kwh, which would be the approximate amount of electricity needed to fully charge a 1000 Wh wheel. That means the running cost for electricity drops to 0.25 cents per mile. Less if you charge it at work . Whereas my cost for gas is about $3.50 per gallon. So adjusting for these three factors strongly tilts things in favor of the EUC. But the total cost of an EUC also should include the cost of protective gear, to be fair and realistic. Good helmets, wrist guards, etc don't come cheap. On the other hand, MPG for motor vehicles should be based on city mileage numbers, as that's where the majority of EUC usage will compare to, not too many EUCs on the freeway. At least, not yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai-lad Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 In comparison, bicycle running costs are about 1 full meal per 50 miles. Back when I was riding bikes long distance, (many many years ago) I could do 100 miles in a day if I really pushed it, but it would take most of the day and require a stop to refuel even after a full high carb breakfast. So assuming a meal is $5.00, 100 miles would be $10.00. That puts my previous cycling running costs at 10 cents per mile... ymmv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Thai-lad said: If you get 40 miles per charge on a 1000 Wh wheel, and 500 re-charges per battery, you should be able to get 20,000 miles from a new EUC before junking it. That's assuming the rest of the unit holds up. These are the same numbers I originally came up with too. I then followed some real life testing of the batteries and they came up with 1,200 charges. Another note is that even though they batteries hold 80% of there original charge after 1,200 charges or 5 years that add that once you get to that point the batteries decline rapidly. I did not do the testing but it tends to go with my experience with tools (I am sure tools are more abusive) I hope for the best and expect the worse. 2 hours ago, Thai-lad said: Whereas my cost for gas is about $3.50 per gallon. So adjusting for these three factors strongly tilts things in favor of the EUC. But the total cost of an EUC also should include the cost of protective gear, to be fair and realistic. Good helmets, wrist guards, etc don't come cheap. Very true. I think you could double the fuel expenses in Most non US countries. 2 hours ago, Thai-lad said: On the other hand, MPG for motor vehicles should be based on city mileage numbers, as that's where the majority of EUC usage will compare to, not too many EUCs on the freeway. At least, not yet I used actual mileage in my example. Every gallon used in the van is recorded. The mph was 13.2 mpg for the life of the van to 100,000 miles. Average speed 31 mph. 2 hours ago, Thai-lad said: In comparison, bicycle running costs are about 1 full meal per 50 miles. Back when I was riding bikes long distance, (many many years ago) I could do 100 miles in a day if I really pushed it, but it would take most of the day and require a stop to refuel even after a full high carb breakfast. So assuming a meal is $5.00, 100 miles would be $10.00. That puts my previous cycling running costs at 10 cents per mile... ymmv I was thinking the same thing but did not want to get into medical expenses and life longevity. While most Americans would do well to burn some calories other parts of the world might not need such exertions. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 11 hours ago, EUCMania said: Most family needs a car anyway. The only way to save by using EUC is if it can replace one car or more. A car typically cost $5000 to $8000/year.. So the saving is obvious if an EUC can substitute a car. This is probably the most important point to not spending money; don't have a family. 100% of the men I know are quite frugal when single but then get a wife, who then wants children in the suburbs with the two cars, vacations, and other goods, and in this way the costs rise by a factor of 3x or more. Replacing a car with an EUC (or bicycle) is feasible for the honest bachelor, but the allure of sex and family morphs the city bachelor from frugality to a car user. Can't be helped. I've known plenty of men in their twenties who only had a motorcycle for transportation; I know no such man in his thirties. I used to bicycle with a rather large but slow crowd; there were more than a few men who earned little to modest but didn't have a family nor a car. Dig a bit deeper and these guys lived pretty well simply by not owning a car, as that 5-8k not spent goes far. Personally, I buy my EUCs with little concern with their costs, somewhat like my overpriced bicycles. However, I started noticing I would spend a couple hundred less each month, and looking closely at my spending habits that's entirely due to less car usage along with more EUC and bicycle usage. Having a car encourages more trips, both short and long, but having an EUC eliminates most of those trips, both short and "vacation" types. What could be more fun than riding an EUC at your local big park? Hmm, riding your EUC fast at your local big park. There is one caveat but it is a huge one; you will eventually get injured riding an EUC. You might get injured on a bicycle but you will get injured on an EUC, and therefore any cost comparison better include paid up medical insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Yup, with a family, or even taking care of an elder, you need a car in most places in the U.S. If only for emergencies, it's a necessity rather than a luxury. Public transportation is generally limited and often unreliable when available at all, and may subject you to coming out of it a sweaty mess rather than business-ready. Even jobs that wouldn't at first glance seem to have anything to do with owning a car sometimes require employer or employee alike to run out and pick up or drop off something at the copy shop immediately, rush over to a client's place, ,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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