Wheels for heavier riders?

[winterwheel]

18 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

...jumped off a 2.5 foot deck multiple times...

Holy moly!... that would be amazing to see. You should be on the list of people stress testing new wheels.

[meepmeepmayer]

16 hours ago, lutz said:

It seems to be quite difficult to find any page that has max load information on the MSuper X.    Ewheels no info, TecToyz no info,  euc.nyc  220 lbs, 

I can imagine this might be an an error. Seems unlikely that the payload is 1/3 less than its predecessors?

Just so you have no misconceptions: I'm willing to bet nobody knows the msuper X's max load, not even Gotway. Because there is none. They roughly estimate what weight might not be too much, and that's what goes into some spec sheet (if an official one even exists). These Chinese manufacturers use empiric experience at best and are bullshitting the rest of the time. How would they even come up with an authoritative number for weight capacity? Actual engineering calculations? Ahahaha

This isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. Much like top speed and range depend on rider weight and aren't fixed, so is the possible rider weight. It works if nothing breaks. Since the electronics are mighty fine on the new Gotways, and their axles are as good as any, there's nothing speaking against them. The same applies to the latest KingSongs (like the 18L) and the Ninebot One Z. So all of these 18 inch wheels will work for you. As will reasonably strong 16 inchers - ACM2, Tesla, V10(F), 16S. (Maybe the 16S is borderline a little too weak, as are weaker wheels).

As a heavier rider:

• You need to be a bit more careful with strong accelerations, strong braking, etc. Just listen to the warning beeps like everyone else. They may (or may not) come a little earlier, that's it. These wheels are built well enough so you can't simply overpower them if you don't explicitly try (maybe not even then).
• If anything breaks for weight-related reasons, it's going to be mechanical. Pedal, axle, bent tire rim. So don't jump down huge curbs every 5 seconds and you're fine.
• Big batteries are your friend, because they can push out more current. This is the advantage the msX has over the 18L and Ninebot One Z. But that doesn't mean the others are weaker, probably that will never play a role. But the big battery also gives you more range, which is always nice. From a safety point of view, any 4P battery configuration (840Wh 16S, ~1000Wh wheels) is good enough.

I'd say if the msX is nice and shiny and whispers sweet words in your ear, there's no wheel that can be said to be stronger (but that doesn't mean that an 18L for example is weaker, it should be just as strong). And if there's any other wheel you really like, get that.

Edited September 21, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[Xoltri]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

My concern isn't that bits of the wheel would snap off when I step on it , it is more about how it behaves when carrying an over-the-limit rider at 40-45kph, which I quite often ride at. One sees so many pictures of scrapes, bruises, broken bones that after a while you start to get paranoid about such things.

Well, I can say that if I ever do crash on it it won't be because of a lack of power.  It has an insane amount of reserve power at the speeds I ride at ~40km/h.

[winterwheel]

3 minutes ago, Xoltri said:

Well, I can say that if I ever do crash on it it won't be because of a lack of power.  It has an insane amount of reserve power at the speeds I ride at ~40km/h.

I guess I just need to buy one, and gear up for the first few rides where I'm really going to push it. Just like we should all be doing I suppose.

[Xoltri]

2 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I guess I just need to buy one, and gear up for the first few rides where I'm really going to push it. Just like we should all be doing I suppose.

Yeah, get a helmet! .  

 

[winterwheel]

1 minute ago, Xoltri said:

Yeah, get a helmet! .  

 

I have one, with the little mirror attached and everything.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Xoltri said:

Well, I can say that if I ever do crash on it it won't be because of a lack of power.  It has an insane amount of reserve power at the speeds I ride at ~40km/h.

As far as I can tell, lack of power is not a main cause of crashes anyway. 40km/h isn't a speed I would ever want to crash on an EUC, even wearing all protection gear I ever used to wear when motorcycling.

[winterwheel]

37 minutes ago, Mono said:

40km/h isn't a speed I would ever want to crash on an EUC

40 km/h is a normal speed for a good cyclist, much faster downhill. I've crashed a few times on both, and for me at least, I much prefer crashing a wheel to a bicycle. I think of the issue with wheels is they give you new places and causes of crashes, more-so than the crashes at a given speed being any more or less dangerous on a wheel than other devices.

[Mono]

32 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

40 km/h is a normal speed for a good cyclist, much faster downhill. I've crashed a few times on both, and for me at least, I much prefer crashing a wheel to a bicycle. I think of the issue with wheels is they give you new places and causes of crashes, more-so than the crashes at a given speed being any more or less dangerous on a wheel than other devices.

More causes I can agree with, equally dangerous I have doubts about. Indeed, I should have written that 40km/h isn't a speed I would ever want to faceplant on an EUC. This seems to be an EUC specific crash scenario which I feel worse about than any of the few dozens of bicycle crashes I had in my life, IIRC, though all of them below 40km/h, IIRC.

Can you explain why you feel more comfortable with crashing with an EUC than with a bicycle? I can perfectly see why this is the case at speeds I can run off, but beyond that just thinking of the bump I conveniently overlooked...

[winterwheel]

15 minutes ago, Mono said:

Can you explain why you feel more comfortable with crashing with an EUC than with a bicycle? I can perfectly see why this is the case at speeds I can run off, but beyond that just thinking of the bump I conveniently overlooked...

Easily. First, I am not tangled up with bits of bicycle when we go down together. Second, I have my hands free to take defensive actions. Third, I am starting from an upright position where, even if I can't keep up with it, the first couple of attempted steps are going to break my fall. I guess I'd add to that, that a head injury is far more of a concern with a bicycle than it is with an EUC. I have gone down quite a few times on the wheel; knees, elbows, hands banged up. I haven't come anywhere close to hitting my noggin on anything.

I'd repeat though, that an EUC may be more likely to crash in some situations, such as that unexpected bump, than a bicycle, which is a different concern.

Edited September 21, 2018 by winterwheel

[Lukas83]

ok, but I'm concerned about the pedals and not with the motor / mosfet power. 

I had a ks18ay+ with only 680wh and I had no problems except a little bit pedal dip uphills. That one was rated with 150kg max payload and I was safe in my mind that the pedals won't brake or fail at any time. I don't know how strong the pedals are in the msuperx now - are they rock solid like on the ks18? I don't mean that power or motor wise, I only mean the stability of the metal holding the pedals in the correct position. 

my absolute nightmare is riding with 40 kmh and one pedal broke away under my feet..

I love acceleration and I'm not the super high speed user...would you guys go for the 100v or 84v version of the msuperx? 

sorry if you're getting me wrong, my English is not that good at all... 

 

best, Lukas 

[Mono]

16 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I have gone down quite a few times on the wheel; knees, elbows, hands banged up. I haven't come anywhere close to hitting my noggin on anything.

I see, that is, you have never experienced a (literal) faceplant. How do you explain that so many other riders have? Maybe it is a matter of riding style and posture. I hope that, by now, I fall in the same category of riders as you 

BTW, have you ever hit your head (hard) when going down with the bike and how so?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Mono

[winterwheel]

55 minutes ago, Mono said:

I see, that is, you have never experienced a (literal) faceplant. How do you explain that so many other riders have? Maybe it is a matter of riding style and posture. I hope that, by now, I fall in the same category of riders 

BTW, have you ever hit your head (hard) when going down with the bike and how so?

I don't presume to speak for anyone except myself. I'm still a newbie in this game and not trying to suggest anything else.

Speaking for myself only, I haven't had any cutouts thankfully, but I think I have had similar types of accidents at speed including one quite recently actually - going around a corner on a paved bike path and come across not one but two sharp 'speed bumps' at different angles a few feet apart. The first one got the wheel off the ground and and twisted; the second knocked the wheel out from under me. In that case I banged up my knee pretty good (not protected) hands a bit (partially protected), elbows were protected so no issue there, and to the point, didn't come anywhere close to having my face contacting anything. 

I have come to think (perhaps wrongly) of "faceplant" as a euphemism for any falling forward event when the wheel drops out from underneath you and you are unable to run off. This would seem be a common thing to happen, really the most common type of wheel issue to have. This definition would include but not be limited to those incidents when a person's face literally contacts the ground. So in my (quite possibly confused) world, faceplants are common; facial injuries far less so. I would very much like to know how often actual facial injuries occur from the faceplant class of accident.

Like you, I'd also very much like to know to know *how* they happen; not the wheel part, but how it is that sometimes riders fail to protect their faces. The physics of actual faceplants don't make any sense to me...no matter how fast one is travelling the distance between you and the ground is the same, and the effect of gravity is the same, so the time available to protect oneself from the ground is the same. I totally get shoulder and arm injuries, those are going to get jammed on the pavement when they are extended to protect oneself from the fall, but I am curious to know how actual literal facial injuries occur. Unfortunately attempts to discuss this seem to prompt some well-intentioned(?) folk to come out of the woodwork and start yelling about safety habits and the conversation ends there.

As for the bike question, that seems like a discussion about the safety of bicycles and not really productive to have here.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by winterwheel

[RockyTop]

48 minutes ago, Lukas83 said:

ok, but I'm concerned about the pedals and not with the motor / mosfet power. 

I had a ks18ay+ with only 680wh and I had no problems except a little bit pedal dip uphills. That one was rated with 150kg max payload and I was safe in my mind that the pedals won't brake or fail at any time. I don't know how strong the pedals are in the msuperx now - are they rock solid like on the ks18? I don't mean that power or motor wise, I only mean the stability of the metal holding the pedals in the correct position. 

my absolute nightmare is riding with 40 kmh and one pedal broke away under my feet..

I love acceleration and I'm not the super high speed user...would you guys go for the 100v or 84v version of the msuperx? 

sorry if you're getting me wrong, my English is not that good at all... 

 

best, Lukas 

I don’t think the GotWay pedal will break. I am more worried about wearing at the hinge and losing the pedal angle. When the pin or hole loses a few thousands of an inch the pedal angle changes. The KingSong would have to wear more than 1/8” to lose the same amount of angle.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

4 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I have come to think (perhaps wrongly) of "faceplant" as a euphemism for any falling forward event when the wheel drops out from underneath you and you are unable to run off. This would seem be a common thing to happen, really the most common type of wheel issue to have. This definition would include but not be limited to those incidents when a person's face literally contacts the ground. So in my (quite possibly confused) world, faceplants are common; facial injuries far less so. I would very much like to know how often actual facial injuries occur from the faceplant class of accident.

In our little world a faceplant is VERY different to "any falling forward event."

Think of it like this... Every moment you are riding an EUC you have started to fall - that is how we ride. We lean forward and literally start to fall, but just then the wheel kicks in and moves forward to stop you falling any further. And that is why a true faceplant is a very different thing...

So there you are leaning into you "fall" with your wheel just keeping up to maintain your balance - but your centre of gravity is still a little (or a lot) forward of the wheel axle, that is after all how we maintain speed. Now think about what might happen if your wheel suddenly lost power? Effectively it stops keeping up with you, and in an instant you are in fact almost pushing it backward (because you are still forward of the axle). And what happens then isn't really a fall (that started when you got on the wheel), but more like someone grabs you by the feet and pulls you backward. 

What makes this so significant is the suddenness of it all. Because you go from balanced to "nothing" in an instant there is no way to start running (as your feet are well behind you before you realise it). And with all of the physics in play it only takes a fraction of a second to be on the ground - Not enough time to even begin reacting.

When this happened to me, I was riding along one moment thinking this is great. And then I was on the ground wondering how I got there!

Coming off a wheel that gets stuck in a pot hole, or tumbles over a bump is so much easier, as you have time. I wear wrist guards for this type of spill, where I can take evasive action. But I wear a helmet for the cutout / faceplant that is over before you even realise it.

If you want to experience the difference, try this - and I say this somewhat jokingly, but it may help explain it - if anyone does want to actually try this it is at your own peril (so wear protection and put down padding)...

1. Ride up to a wall and stop with the wall in front of you, and your hands against it (for balance).
2. Then slowly roll away while keeping your hands on the wall (leaning forward more as the wheel gets further away).
3. And finally when your wheel is as far away from the wall as you can get, have a friend turn off the power.

What ensues will indeed be a faceplant! Hopefully though, everyone here is able to visualise this without actually trying it.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Lukas83 said:

my absolute nightmare is riding with 40 kmh and one pedal broke away under my feet..

Not going to happen. Two things could cause this:

• The pedal bolt breaks so badly (I think it would have to be in two places) that the pedal falls off. That never, ever happened, as far as we know.
• The pedal itself breaks off. That happened with a bad production (presumedly) of pedals a few times (I think we had 3 known cases here) over a year ago, and was never, ever heard from again. And even if the pedal breaks, it would be not during regular riding, but when dropping on the pedals hard after jumping down a curb or so. Never heard of such a thing happening.

Pedals breaking is a theoretical danger with EUCs that never happens. Just like bike pedals breaking isn't something pople consider. Forget about it. There are so many more realistic things to care about. Wear protection and drive mindfully

Staying on the topic of pedals:

20 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I don’t think the GotWay pedal will break. I am more worried about wearing at the hinge and losing the pedal angle. When the pin or hole loses a few thousands of an inch the pedal angle changes. The KingSong would have to wear more than 1/8” to lose the same amount of angle.

I don't see how wear at the hinge could possibly happen. It's solid metal vs metal block (pedal and bracket), connected with a metal rod. And it's not like anything rubs against each other during riding, the pedal is just down in place. Never, ever heard of the slightest wear or change of pedal angle there.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Lukas83 said:

I love acceleration and I'm not the super high speed user...would you guys go for the 100v or 84v version of the msuperx? 

In theory, the 84V should (could?) offer a little more torque. I don't think people have noticed any real differences in practice between the two options regarding torque. Not sure.

I would tend towards the 84V because of the bigger battery and possibly a better price for what you get. But there's nothing wrong with the 100V variant either.

Edited September 22, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[Mono]

40 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

The physics of actual faceplants don't make any sense to me...no matter how fast one is travelling the distance between you and the ground is the same, and the effect of gravity is the same, so the time available to protect oneself from the ground is the same. I totally get shoulder and arm injuries

Your physics argument, if it were to hold up, would hold for the shoulders as well as it did for the face. I think the decisive danger of a speedy accident (apart from hitting something) is that part of the forward movement can be converted into a rotational movement. In the unlucky scenario, this rotation smashes the upper part of the body "face forward" into the ground. I agree with you that in most cases the rider can avoid the face actually hitting the ground (hard).

[The Fat Unicyclist]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Pedals breaking is a theoretical danger with EUCs that never happens.

Umm... Not wanting to disagree, but I recall @Bob Eisenman had a pedal issue about a month ago - IIRC...

@Bob Eisenman - Can you remind us of the scenario for this?

[RockyTop]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Not going to happen. Two things could cause this:

• The pedal bolt breaks so badly (I think it would have to be in two places) that the pedal falls off. That never, ever happened, as far as we know.
• The pedal itself breaks off. That happened with a bad production (presumedly) of pedals a few times (I think we had 3 known cases here) over a year ago, and was never, ever heard from again. And even if the pedal breaks, it would be not during regular riding, but when dropping on the pedals hard after jumping down a curb or so. Never heard of such a thing happening.

Pedals breaking is a theoretical danger with EUCs that never happens. Just like bike pedals breaking isn't something pople consider. Forget about it. There are so many more realistic things to care about. Wear protection and drive mindfully

Staying on the topic of pedals:

I don't see how wear at the hinge could possibly happen. It's solid metal vs metal block (pedal and bracket), connected with a metal rod. And it's not like anything rubs against each other during riding, the pedal is just down in place. Never, ever heard of the slightest wear or change of pedal angle there.

Something is wearing or bending in the hinge. I have only had the wheel for 4 months. The pedals had a Nice angle to them when I got it After a few months they flattened out so I added a .005” motor bed shim to the bottom of the hinge to get the angle back. A month later the pedals were flat again. I set the wheel in a jig to measure if I had bent the axle or pedal arms. Arms are still parallel. Now I have a .010” banding strap in the bottom of the hinge. When I started out I couldn’t even slide the .005” shim up through the hinge. Now the banding strap slide up through the hinge easily. 

Meanwhile I watch people file the spot that I keep adding shims to. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by RockyTop
Remeasured

[winterwheel]

48 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

In our little world a faceplant is VERY different to "any falling forward event."

So in this world when someone says they face-planted they always mean they literally hit their face/head on the ground?

BTW, I very much like your thought experiment/activity. I have mused from time to time about setting up some  sort of training facility that would include practicing / experiencing falling off onto some type of padded surface. This idea sounds the start of something doable.

Edited September 22, 2018 by winterwheel

[Mono]

On 9/22/2018 at 2:33 AM, RockyTop said:

The pedals had a Nice angle to them when I got it After a few months they flattened out

Same here on the V8, but it took more than a few months. By now the pedals are hanging down instead of pointing up.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Mono

[Bob Eisenman]

51 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Can you remind us of the scenario for this?

Level street ... No ruts...thought I ran into a pot hole I didn't see... noticed that the pedal was sheared off after falling....no traffic behind me.... walked the EUC off the road.....train stop back to apt. was two blocks away.

The sidewalks I use in that ride area are really lumpy. 

The fall ripped my jeans (not my skin) from about over the ankle to the cuff....probabbly caught on some residual pedal part.

 

Shirt was unscathed. Wrist and wrist guard pressed into my chest.....no visible bruise but probably slightly stretched or tore a chest muscle.....still a bit sensitive if I cough...almost all better now...wrist sprain getting better.

No time to react....just a chested fall to the road.....total surprise for this heavy rider who rides a little slower since then. Was wearing gloves,  helmet, wrist, elbow and knee protection.

Just turned over 8,000 km on the Monster.

Good luck with the business...nice videos of people enjoying themselves on EUCs.

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Bob Eisenman

[Mono]

8 hours ago, winterwheel said:

So in this world when someone says they face-planted they always mean they literally hit their face/head on the ground?

No, people do mean different things when using the (same) word faceplant. I would mean a specific type of forward falling, where the face is in risk to touch the ground, but doesn't necessarily need to actually touch it. This figuratively-vs-literally poll doesn't reflect these different ways to fall though:

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Mono

[RockyTop]

@Bob Eisenman Did your pedals slowly flatten out before they broke?  ( lose the V angle over time) It would explain what is happening to my pedals.