KS 16s first crash

[Fernando Llambias]

I bought a brand new Ninebot One E+, and with only 37 Kilometers battery failed twice and as a result a shoulder Fracture. After first cut off, got in touch with seller and told me to recharge the battery ,that lithium ion had to be recharged several cycles ,for having an acceptable capacity ?? I did it , and the second cut off came, with terrible results !! Users need more information , and think sellers hide the truth !! I am now learning from this forum , I loved my wheel , but it seems to be very dangerous , as I now am realizing that they fail more than what I supposed !! I did all the tutorials I found on Youtube , and didn't have any disgusting incident !! Until the cut's off suddenly took place , with terrible results !! Thank you all for all the knowledge I am getting from the forum and thanks for your cooperation !! Fernando Ll.

[Smoother]

On 6/8/2019 at 9:51 PM, gr8ps said:

I've experienced the violent tilt back many times. For me, the tilt forward when I aggressively lean in is a lot scarier than the tilt-back - I have a split second where I fear that the wheel won't be able to keep me upright and the tilt-back almost comes as a relief that it didn't. When it tilts back, the wheel doesn't really shoot ahead of me, I just rotate my ankle backwards.

If your wheel doesn't shoot ahead of you then you haven't experienced violent tilt back.  Without the shooting ahead its not violent, its just tilt back.  Any one who has actually experienced violent tilt back would never experience it many times because it is too f.ing scary to go anywhere near it again; unless one is incapable of learning (not something I am suggesting about you) seeing as more than 50% of the time it results in a butt plant at speed or some other type of crash (but not particularly a face plant because of the nature of the wheel's movement)

[gr8ps]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

If your wheel doesn't shoot ahead of you then you haven't experienced violent tilt back.  Without the shooting ahead its not violent, its just tilt back.  Any one who has actually experienced violent tilt back would never experience it many times because it is too f.ing scary to go anywhere near it again; unless one is incapable of learning (not something I am suggesting about you) seeing as more than 50% of the time it results in a butt plant at speed or some other type of crash (but not particularly a face plant because of the nature of the wheel's movement)

Heh, that could very well be why I don't think tilt-backs are a big deal then. I get regular tilt backs all the time due to riding the beep, those aren't a big deal. I get what I perceive are violent ones when I accelerate too aggressively. What happens in these cases is that the pedal dips forward more than usual and rotates back in a short amount of time, less than half a second. Come to think of it, it's probably because I ride in intermediate mode because I like some squishiness when I brake. 

[Azze80]

Thanks you for sharing your thoughts.

I hope I am following the rules of this forum and continuing with a couple of more questions. Please let me know.

I will aim for cruising in 90% of the wheels power in the future. I will copy paste a post I did today (conversation on youtube)  which has a few questions and more explanation. Maybe you'd have any recommendations .

"I did a heavy acceleration and pushed the tilt back, the crash was during tilt back, also in addition to that... it was during a small uphill (incline going up). So I guess it is normal?  

I’ve read is that others who have upgraded firmware have had to Recalibrate the wheels after. My first upgrade to 1.08 was apparently not successful since it did an upgrade again (same day as the crash). Now, today, I’ve upgraded to v 1.09 and have done a recalibration. In one or two weeks I will try to give it a careful test if I’m not afraid of this wheel... I think I will be ok. In the near future, I will want to upgrade to a wheel with more power so I don’t reach top speed. Now I’ve set the warning on 27km/h. 16” is tempting since it is easier if I’d have to have it with me in a bus or train(even if I like the idea of a 18xl). Would the ks16s be enough or should I be needing the 16X?

One question, for example... let’s say I’d put the tilt back to 20km/h and push it very hard at 20, would it die on me again due to pushing the limit of the tilt back or is it only when going pass the 30km/h which is top speed for my ks14s? Of course I will never push it during tilt back again but it is worth knowing the main cause.

Best regards

[atdlzpae]

It won't die on you with a manual tiltback. It's just gonna be very annoying, but not deadly. :-)

So don't worry about it.

But is tiltback necessary? Maybe just set up an audible alarm and decelerate without being forced to do that?

[Mono]

37 minutes ago, Azze80 said:

One question, for example... let’s say I’d put the tilt back to 20km/h and push it very hard at 20, would it die on me again due to pushing the limit of the tilt back or is it only when going pass the 30km/h which is top speed for my ks14s? 

I don't know the specifics of this wheel, but with all likelihood the tiltback does not change how hard you can push at 20km/h (and it doesn't change how hard you can push at 30km/h either). I suspect that if you "push very hard" at 20km/h you can still outlean the ks14 either way.

[Fernando Llambias]

In your opinion , wich will be the more reliable wheel ?, or depending the conditions all of them will cut the power, resulting in accident , with more or less luck ?? I was thinking in buying a new one , but don't want to run any more risks, or only acceptable ones !! Which will be the most trustable wheel or the best technically or the more advanced one in engineering terms ? Thanks for your answers. Fernando.

[Azze80]

@atdlzpae, completely right, it would be sufficient with only the audible alarm. My question is only for understanding the wheel, different factors give different results. Also, I think I am overthinking this :). Just stay to the limit and I'll be fine. Thanks!

 

@Mono , I think I've learned something here then, it could be possible that I've then over leaned the wheel during incline since it shouldn't matter how hard I push the tilt-back? By saying "pushing hard on the tilt back " I mean really withstanding it and almost going up on the toes while the process is ongoing. (maybe exaggerate a bit). 

When do over leaning occur ? Is that measurable?

Sorry for all the bad questions here but I've gained tons of knowledge here, many thanks again! 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Azze80 said:

When do over leaning occur ? Is that measurable?

Yes. Manufacturers could also implement in firmware to start a tiltback/alarm before an overlean.

The data logged by wheellog is unrortionately a bit to coarse

 

[esaj]

I've hit the "violent" tilt-back on a couple of occasions with the KS16S, it has happened when I've accelerated really fast to the tilt-back speed, ie. the first warning just starts to play and the tilt-back hits pretty much immediately, but that's my own fault, and nowadays I rarely accelerate that fast. Compared to slowly accelerating to the final warning and then tilt-back, it's really different. Never crashed due to it, but the "floaty" feeling it gives when the pedals suddenly "give in" under you and the wheel is moving at least a little bit in front of you is very unnerving, and involuntary tensing up when it happens unexpectedly makes it even worse. I've kept my warnings at 30-32-34-35 (tiltback) pretty much from the start, and usually keep at the "edge" of the first warning. Don't know if the behavior changes in newer firmware versions, never updated mine from v1.00.

There could be ways to make it "softer", but at least in my cases, I've accelerated so fast that if the tilt-back was slower, the speed would have probably gotten so high, that even more acceleration required by the tilt-back could be too much for the batteries/motor to handle (I suspect that at high enough speed, the motor back-EMF would rise so high that the battery voltage wouldn't be enough to keep accelerating, and would instead start braking due to regeneration occurring), and the result would be a face plant.

[Chriull]

On 6/11/2019 at 7:05 PM, esaj said:

There could be ways to make it "softer", but at least in my cases, I've accelerated so fast that if the tilt-back was slower, the speed would have probably gotten so high, that even more acceleration required by the tilt-back could be too much for the batteries/motor to handle

But for softer tiltbacks it could just start earlier!

On 6/11/2019 at 7:05 PM, esaj said:

(I suspect that at high enough speed, the motor back-EMF would rise so high that the battery voltage wouldn't be enough to keep accelerating, and would instead start braking due to regeneration occurring), and the result would be a face plant.

Flying over a thread in a german forum regarding driving/controlling a BLDC motor, they simulate the motor coild inductance too for back emf calculation. Would be interesting if the voltage of the inductance is of interest for strong acceleration changes too (reaching overlean earlier?) or just neglectable...

[Azze80]

Thanks all for your support regarding this.

I managed to sell my 14” and want to upgrade now to a bigger wheel. 

My guess is that the 16” would be perfect for my size weight. I seldom go off-road ... and I like to cruise arround 28-30km/h and don’t want to charge so often. 

My 14” had 680wh battery which gave me up to 55km in best conditions.

What I have in mind is a KS16S or( if someone here could talk me into buying the 16x with good arguments then this would be very interesting:). But I rather don’t want to spend the extra 500Euro for nothing.

Something I prioritize is security and reliability of the wheel. Someone told me that if you have “more packs  of batteries installed on each side... that this would be a good thing when needing more power during acceleration and avoiding cut offs? “ ....

2 important questions:

1. I’ve read online that the ks16s is delivered in different batches, the newer should have the lift sensor and the bigger pedals already installed, how can I verify this?

2. Where can I find a good dealer that ships to Sweden? I ordered mine from Poland last time and don’t know if they are ok or not..?

You are welcome with suggestions regarding wheel, store and the different batches. Thanks in advance 🙏🏻

[null]

 

@Azze80

https://e-wheels.no/butikk/enhjuling

These guys ship to Sweden and their prices are quite ok. When I bought my 16S from them a few months back it didn’t have the metal handle, you could mail them to ask. All best

[Azze80]

Wow!

@Mimolette ! I just checked their page, the ks16s is arround 400euro cheaper there😍

you are the best

they have 20% discounts now on this wheel. By”metal handle”, is that the handle with built in sensor?

 

I guess it’s the best wheel for 1000usd ?

[null]

Cool it might suit you, I was surprised to find anything cheaper in Norway

Yes the metal handle has the lift sensor, that’s (AFAIK) is the only difference between the first and second version.

As for best wheel it depends of you, I got it over the Tesla for the lower weight, better range and looks. No regrets other than I’d prefer it to have the KS14/18 design.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Mimolette

[meepmeepmayer]

Ask your seller to confirm whether it is the 16S v2/new 16S update.

The new 16S v2 has a metal handle (instead of plastic) and cut-off functionality when lifted, but there is no button on the handle, so you can't see it. The only visible difference is the handle material.

Lifting the handle will trigger a small mechanical switch on the inside of the wheel. They added that on the 16S v2 and replaced the early 18(X)L unreliable strain sensor with this, too.

The price is quite nice. Compare to eunicycles.eu for example.

[Azze80]

 @Mimolette and @meepmeepmayer, thanks a lot for explaining!

Now it is clearer! After thinking about it, even if it’s not the version 2 I would be dumb not to buy anyway I think. I mean it’s not worth 2-400 euro for this feature, even if I really want it.

Can one install it later?

As for the wheel choice, I think I don’t want a larger wheel( coming from a 14” KS14S) mostly cause of the size. I’d want to bring it in a train or bus without any problem. Compared to other brands in terms of reliability and range and comfort, don’t see any real competition. Inmotion V10 has been a choice I’ve thought about but the chassis is so tall that I’d might as well then go with the KS18L if I am at that range.

As for appearance and looks... I don’t find the 16S and 14S “so” different, maybe I haven’t watched very closely? I prefer the black matte model.

 

 

[null]

Yes the mat black is nice. The design difference lies mainly in how the rim is a bit slimmer on 14/18, and the side body is a curve, where the 16 is one curve then a flat. The battery covers are also a bit chunky. But then the Tesla isn’t any slimmer. The weight of the 16s is heavy enough, i wouldn’t like lifting much more when walking stairs

About adding later: metal handle yes, if the current breaks for example. The cut off however relies on an extra connector in the controller board as well as a switch. It could probably be done but maybe not worth the cost.

As for the v1 the difference is only that, so depending of the price difference it might be worth going with that nonetheless.

[Azze80]

@Mimolette

Nice😎! Thanks to you it just became pretty easy to choose. I had an offer 2 weeks ago of a used v10F Inmotion for 600euro 2 years old, don’t know exactly the miles.... It was tempting but I am 99% leaning towards the ks16 anyway.

Another question regarding the membership for this forum. Why am one limited and restricted to a certain amount of replies and reactions(likes)?

I can’t leave more than 1 like/day...🙄😞

I guess maybe you would have to pay for a vip account for more privileges?

I am not use to forums and don’t really know where and when to start a new topic and how to find answers , even searching is restricted for me.

Sorry for babbling on off topic, 

You have really been a big help! 🙏🏻

[Rywokast]

2 hours ago, Azze80 said:

@Mimolette

Nice😎! Thanks to you it just became pretty easy to choose. I had an offer 2 weeks ago of a used v10F Inmotion for 600euro 2 years old, don’t know exactly the miles.... It was tempting but I am 99% leaning towards the ks16 anyway.

Another question regarding the membership for this forum. Why am one limited and restricted to a certain amount of replies and reactions(likes)?

I can’t leave more than 1 like/day...🙄😞

I guess maybe you would have to pay for a vip account for more privileges?

I am not use to forums and don’t really know where and when to start a new topic and how to find answers , even searching is restricted for me.

Sorry for babbling on off topic, 

You have really been a big help! 🙏🏻

inmotion v10 is barely a year old.. so yea, but for the forum in order to be unrestricted you have to garner a certain amount of "reputation" you can gain it by having other users give you an upvote on something you posted.. im not sure exactly how many is needed but it shouldnt take long if you are even slightly active.. heres one to get you started

 

9 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Wow!

@Mimolette ! I just checked their page, the ks16s is arround 400euro cheaper there😍

you are the best

they have 20% discounts now on this wheel. By”metal handle”, is that the handle with built in sensor?

 

I guess it’s the best wheel for 1000usd ?

perhaps it was something lost in translation but i dont see metal handle anywhere on the listing?? although i do see that it lists the motor as 1500W nominal whereas the old version is 1200W nominal which would indicate yes it is the latest version with lift sensor (which is extremely handy and has never once failed for me).. absolutely, new you will not find a better wheel for 1000 USD

[Rywokast]

6 hours ago, Mimolette said:

Cool it might suit you, I was surprised to find anything cheaper in Norway

Yes the metal handle has the lift sensor, that’s (AFAIK) is the only difference between the first and second version.

As for best wheel it depends of you, I got it over the Tesla for the lower weight, better range and looks. No regrets other than I’d prefer it to have the KS14/18 design.

lift sensor yes, but also the pads are unmarked and noticeably (at least to me) more cushy, as well the tire is different from original, a bit wider and much softer than the original and the tread is slightly different, i find it much more comfortable as well.. also the motor is slightly improved, though sadly due to kingsong safety the hard speed limit is still 35 kmph.. the tesla is great for that bit more battery and top speed is obviously much better, but for a city wheel imo nothing beats the ks16, its just so practical, compact and comfortable.. tesla doesnt even come close in that regard imo

[Rywokast]

12 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Thanks all for your support regarding this.

I managed to sell my 14” and want to upgrade now to a bigger wheel. 

My guess is that the 16” would be perfect for my size weight. I seldom go off-road ... and I like to cruise arround 28-30km/h and don’t want to charge so often. 

My 14” had 680wh battery which gave me up to 55km in best conditions.

What I have in mind is a KS16S or( if someone here could talk me into buying the 16x with good arguments then this would be very interesting:). But I rather don’t want to spend the extra 500Euro for nothing.

Something I prioritize is security and reliability of the wheel. Someone told me that if you have “more packs  of batteries installed on each side... that this would be a good thing when needing more power during acceleration and avoiding cut offs? “ ....

2 important questions:

1. I’ve read online that the ks16s is delivered in different batches, the newer should have the lift sensor and the bigger pedals already installed, how can I verify this?

2. Where can I find a good dealer that ships to Sweden? I ordered mine from Poland last time and don’t know if they are ok or not..?

You are welcome with suggestions regarding wheel, store and the different batches. Thanks in advance 🙏🏻

anywhere that isnt selling old stock.. as in they are actually continuously moving wheels, should have the newest version by now... however the default larger pedals are an ewheels exclusive, though of course for a price you can always add them later... they are not essential, i mean i went two years loving my ks16 before i got the upgraded version, but they do make a difference and feel amazing.... however if you have never had them obviously kingsong normal pedals are fine and not especially small anyways.. absolutely the more battery packs the safer the wheel will be.. additionally they will allow you to go faster, and to go for a longer time relatively before firmware slows you down due to low battery.. generally two packs you will slow down at 50% battery remaining, but with four packs you will wait until 30% battery until the firmware slows you down... it is much safer as there is not as much of a voltage drop with equal battery levels (aka 50% battery remaining on an euc with two parallel packs vs 50% battery remaining on an euc with four parallel packs)

[null]

Mine was unmarked pads and black rubber finish from that seller, not the new handle though.
I'm away from it at the moment so I can't find any wheel reference. Here are a couple of pictures, one shows the tyre a bit. It is wider than the 2.15 of my SE.

As for old stock, Norway has 5 million people, it just won't roll as fast as elsewhere.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Mimolette

[Azze80]

@Rywokast

@Mimolette

It can be that the price actually is not correct and that I’m mistaken...?

They clearly say that they now have 20% off the old price and have set the new price to 11999(SEK Swedish Kronor).

When I then add the item to the basket and go to checkout , the price the goes down another 2000 SEK.

I think that there is something to do with that they are outside of EU and that maybe I later have to pay taxes and Swedish “moms” + 25%.

I’ll see what happens.

 

Nice pictures by the way @mimolette

[null]

It must be that they remove the Norwegian moms / vat for export, then it would depend of Swedish customs efficiency whether you’d have to add Swedish moms.. The seller probably can give an indication of how it works.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Mimolette