Wobble when going faster

[Bigwheel]

Still a newbie 

 

I'm experiencing some wheel wobble sometimes when I accelerate. Is this just beginners balance or is it a problem with the wheel? (V8). It doesn't happen all the time so it feels like me. Maybe it's my foot positions?

Sometimes the EUC wobbles between my legs. I can grip the EUC but do you experienced riders do this? It feels less secure being so narrow in my stance.

[Scully]

It just your confidence, it'll soon go away with practice.

[Biped Phil]

In the meantime, a duck-footed stance, heels in and toes slightly out, gives you the wheel-hugging without the narrowness. 

As you can see elsewhere in the Forum, there has been discussion about whether keeping the feet even is best, or one foot slightly ahead of the other. 

Of course, when just getting started, you have no idea where on the pedal the second foot will land.  It seems to depend on highly variable gravitational forces or planetary rotation irregularities.  But achieving duck-footedness is not so hard. 

[RockyTop]

I thought that I had stopped wobbling but my wife has proven to me that I still wobble I just don't notice it unless she points it out to me every frecken 30 seconds 

" You just wobbled!!"          " I can quit anytime I want! ...... I like wobbling!  "

As you get better you don't notice the wobble as much and it gets easier to stop.  I tend to get a short GotWay wobble after a quick speed and/or turn transition while chasing bicycles down bike paths at 20+mph.

beginner wobble - force feedback loop error.  caused by repeated over correction and loose ankle joints amplified by fatigue. (lack of EUC muscle) 

GotWay wobble -  wags like the hinge is on the top or bottom rather than front or back. caused by the speed demon pose that requires you to bend the knees for suspension purposes at high speed.  The bend in the knee changes the swivel angle causing a wag at the top rather than the back. (still wags in the back just higher up)

Edited April 19, 2020 by RockyTop

[RockyTop]

Wobble Baby!   This is a good song to play on your EUC speakers while embracing the Wobble. You can even practice riding backwards when you hear "Back it UP!"

 

[MBIKER_SURFER]

3 hours ago, Bigwheel said:

Still a newbie 

 

I'm experiencing some wheel wobble sometimes when I accelerate. Is this just beginners balance or is it a problem with the wheel? (V8). It doesn't happen all the time so it feels like me. Maybe it's my foot positions?

Sometimes the EUC wobbles between my legs. I can grip the EUC but do you experienced riders do this? It feels less secure being so narrow in my stance.

That's common to all beginners. After a few hundreds of km, it disappears. 

[meepmeepmayer]

@RockyTop Before I saw your name, I was sure it was a @Hunka Hunka Burning Love post. He must be a bit slow with his recent crash... or outsourcing

[RockyTop]

 

22 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@RockyTop Before I saw your name, I was sure it was a @Hunka Hunka Burning Love post. He must be a bit slow with his recent crash... or outsourcing

I know!  I was thinking the same thing. I could not help myself.  Bad influence from reading too many Hunka posts. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Hey!  How come I’m the patsy!    Oh well I guess I did fall to pieces after my last ride...

[Bigwheel]

Thank you all!  

I'll try gripping the wheel a bit more

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bigwheel

[Keith]

4 minutes ago, Bigwheel said:

Thank you all!  

I'll try gripping the wheel a bit more

Gripping the wheel hard really should not be necessary and can result in quite a bit of discomfort after a while.

If the wobbling can happen at any speed then The most common  beginner’s mistake is placing the feet centrally on the peddles (even overhang front and back) that makes your feet too far back so you have to lean forward harder to move putting more strain on the front of your feet which then results in wobbling - much in the same way that supermarket trolley wheels wobble. You need your centre of gravity when standing normally over the centre of the wheel, that is typically with your heels close to the rear edge of the peddle and toes overhanging the front. Don’t over do it though or you will have difficulty braking. The correct position is where you can brake and accelerate pretty much equally well.

If the wobbling only starts once going faster then beginner’s always seem to hit a sort of “wobble barrier” a speed where wobbling just starts. This might be partially nerves and partially untrained and overworked muscles but it does seem to magically disappear by itself after a few weeks. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Gripping the wheel will be counter-productive as it tenses your muscles, which leads to the feedback loop problem that is the wobble.

Do everything to stand as relaxed and comfortable as you can. Go by feeling, not how you think you should stand on the wheel (most of all, foot stance. E.g. stop at a pole/signpost and correct your foot positioning).

Relaxed = no wobble. Comes with experience and good stance.

[Bigwheel]

Thanks again. I've picked up some invaluable foot positioning tips here. I was excited to read here and then try this out!

[Meelosh123]

I try to keep my feet as far apart and as angled as my wheel allows.  This can provide more leverage for turns and it's also my natural stance, which helps keep me relaxed and balanced.

Aside from foot positioning, pay attention to your posture.  Try sticking your chest out, arching your back, and flexing your hips.  Straightening your legs/knees may get rid of your wobbles in a lot of situations, but there are a lot of benefits to having bent knees, so practice riding with bent knees and good posture in order to have better control over your center of gravity.

I've never heard of "Gotway wobble" but it's definitely a phenomenon I experience with my Tesla when I'm trying aggressively tucked body positions, all for the sake of combating wind resistance.  To prevent wobbles at speed, the more tucked I am, the more I have to learn forward...which really goes against a lot of my basic human survival instincts 

[ScottVal]

Thanks for the great tips. I've been riding 3 years, and just started experiencing wobble after upgrading to a KS 16S and riding at higher speeds. I get it with bent legs and sometimes while slaloming. I've tried all foot stances, positions, air pressure, altenating pressures - one foot as platform foot with most of my body weight and the wheel tight against that leg and use the other leg for control.

     I haven't figured out the solution yet sometimes I think I'm there, then it wobbles again.

     Does it have anything to do with the wheel, does it happen less on 18-inch wheels then on 16s? A friend of mine has a Z10 and he never wobbles unless he rides mine, and I don't seem to wobble on his either.

[MBIKER_SURFER]

@ScottVal: It's a rider fault!

[Daley1]

Only twice had the wobbles on a Ks16s.First time going down a steep hill slowly and controlled and then under a hard acceleration on the flat @ 22kmh.Back off and then its fixed but scared the crap out me on the hill with gravity fighting me all the way!

[Gasmantle]

Hi, I'm a new rider too (about 2 weeks) but I agree with what others have said that it's to do with your technique and not a problem with the wheel. I went through a phase of getting it a lot for a couple of days but as my riding ability has improved it has largely gone. I don't appear to be doing anything differently now but the disappearence of wobble suggests it was something to do with foot positioning and overall poise, I think after a while you will start to ride much more relaxed and your less tense riding style will mean that the wobble gradually lessens.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Gasmantle

[ScottVal]

I don't believe it is the wheel, but would like to know if it happens less on larger wheels such as 18". I've been riding for 3+ years, and log a lot of miles, and as stated, don't get the wobble much, but occasionally, at high speed when bending my knees for slaloming around obstacles in the road like potholes. I've tried various foot positions, tire pressures, etc, so what I am trying to learn is exactly which foot positions work to reduce wobble while bent at the knees and slaloming.

[Braxton Richard Wells]

Very new to the wheel I think I only got the hang of riding on friday, the wobbles were so scary at first they happened when breaking and accelerating down hill, and when accelerating past a certain point period. Recently I've found that they're strongly related to my not doing duck feet or having my feet very far forward on the wheel, or not having it so that one foot is further forward than the other. Gripping the wheel with my calves/knees a certain way seems to have an effect. As well as how far forward I put my calves to grip on the wheel. A quick correction of this or my feet, while in movement after slowing sufficiently, however terrifying always seems to fix the problem.

 

Now I'm getting the please decelerate warning, any suggestions on what levels to keep your speed alarm and tiltback for a more heavy (250) Rider on a 16s? I think I keep tilt back at 32kph my 3rd alarm is at 30 to let me know if I'm pushing to hard.

[John Montpetit]

I’m a complete newbie as well. I experienced wobble for the first time today. I thought it was posture and balance. Glad to hear that it’s a common newbie problem and will fade away. 

[ScottVal]

I think wobble has something to do with rake and trail, the same as why it is hard to steer a chopper (motorcycle) and the same reason that shopping cart wheels wobble (they have negative trail). I would like to see an expert on such things, a person that builds choppers, and rides an EUC, explain what is going on.

On a chopper, you must have positive trail or the steering will be unstable, but on an EUC it seems the standard stance is 0 trail, which is also unstable. Somehow, and I'm not sure how, the really good EUC riders are probably able to create a positive trail situation with their stance, that eliminates the wobble. And I don't think they do it consciously or are able to explain how they do it, which is why there are no good explanations out there, they just have learned to do it instinctively.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/choppers2.htm

In any case, when I keep my feet planted with equal weight on the balls and heels, and have a slightly forward angle to my shins,  I get more stability and can go faster without wobble, and this also seems to be true with just the right foot in that position and the left with the heel up for accelerating.

Again, I would like to hear an expert opinion from someone who could probably explain the problem, and the solution, with ease. Anyone like that out there?

 

[mrelwood]

My (also tall) brother tried to sit on the 18XL to decrease wind resistance on a windy day at a straight stretch at 40km/h. He couldn’t, since as soon as he crouched the wheel started to wobble. I told him to crouch with relaxed ankles, and support himself with knee and lower back muscles instead.

 Instant success. Zero wobbling. And so he was able to slowly go down all the way to sitting on the wheel for the first time.

Just like @Rota Pro Nobis, I have also noticed braking in a downhill to be quite provocative towards wobbling. I guess it’s because one can’t really brake with relaxed ankles or legs.

I didn’t get my summer tire aligned quite straight the first time, so my MSX was quite prone to wobbling. A long shallow downhill and a light long lasting braking started the worst wobble I’ve had during the 23 000 km I’ve ridden. While I didn’t crash, I was disappointed at my (lack of) reaction. I guess I wasn’t taking it seriously fast enough, since minor wobbles are a part of riding, nothing to worry about.

 My understanding of the nature of a wobble is that it’s a resonance, and can be killed like any other resonance:

A quick and strong, pumping braking disturbs the resonance, which helps dampen the wobble. Relaxed ankles decrease the springy motion that amplify the wobble. Experienced riders ride with relaxed legs, so no wobble. Carving left and right, or leaning one leg strongly at the wheel she’ll make the system less symmetrical, which dampens any resonance.

[PennBruce]

On 8/26/2018 at 8:20 AM, Meelosh123 said:

...flexing your hips.....

How does one flex the one's hips?

Bruce

[El Grey]

I have already wrote about z10 wobbling, see :

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/13622-ninebot-z10-wobbling/?tab=comments#comment-245689

It was my thoughts after 950 km on z10 and now, 3000 km later they are still valid .

Hints for analysis :

- elbow stress during straight stance vs bended knees stance

- real efficience agresive riding vs smooth moves, waveing

- pumping is kind of stretching from neutral position, you rather need relaxing from neutral like runner after finish line or boxer before fight

- last observed and trained breaking using "chair stance" i.e. your stance DURING HEAVY BREAKING looks like "number 4" or like siting on a simple kitchen chair - very effective but need training (fight against fear of falling back).

Keep safe, elGrey

PS. Try avoid poison mixture - riding downhil near 46km/h limit leaning forvard, curve, wobbling and pedals tiltback :(.

This problem is heavy to resolve ... without pain.