How would a racing EUC look?

[LanghamP]

In my opinion, there can be no racing EUC because the fundamental principle of self-balancing would result in a crash <every> time. Pretty much all terrestrial vehicles you open up the throttle on a straight until it won't go faster but no such action is available to EUC racers.

The closest analogy I can think of is offshore powerboat racing where racers (actually the throttle-man) goes as fast as he dares without blowing the engine. They blow a lot of engines.

About the closest I can think of EUC racing is some sort of timed obstacle course but that isn't head to head racing.

And it's a shame because wheel racing would have to be one of the cheaper forms of motorized racing but at this point I cannot envision what a racing EUC could look like, if indeed such a thing could exist.

[Demargon]

I think it will be like the hippodrome races. Light weight rider who have to manage the ride power trying to maximize his performance without overcharge it

[Shad0z]

Yesterday i tried racing a few other people on a bmx track with our eucs, pretty fun but i was sbout to fall pff at one point haha ? thats the downside, eucs arent racing machines. 

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

Yesterday i tried racing a few other people on a bmx track with our eucs, pretty fun but i was sbout to fall pff at one point haha ? thats the downside, eucs arent racing machines. 

Well yes I agree as that has been my experience (but with the crash).

Can you think of anything that could make EUCs racing machines?

I can't but I'm hoping one of you can come up with a brilliant idea.

[Mimir]

Limit power?

 

80% of max power = watch vibration

85% of max power = V10F style shutdown, forcing a reset, or just disqualifying the rider.

 

Compete to see who can push their wheel hard... but not too hard. Managing acceleration and braking on turns to keep within the limits for the race, while still having headroom for safety.

 

And EUCExtreme style gear, ofc.

[egiljo]

@LanghamP I don't see why existing wheels can't be racing machines?

Push as hard as you dare (with good protective gear).

Tarmac, gravel, dirt tracks should fit well

Not really different from most other extreme sports.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I think @Demargon posted up a video of him and some friends racing around a go kart track.  I think EUC racing is possible, but it would probably be on a smaller track with more technical turns and obstacles.  As faster EUC's are developed we'll probably see racing on motorcycle tracks.  Even on my Tesla, it was tons of fun zipping through a slalom pathway area at 40 kph.  At higher speeds you really have to concentrate on your technique to maintain the speed and line.  @EUC Extreme posted a video as well testing the top speed of the Msuper V3 I believe a while back on a track.  Off-road racing would also be cool to see.  

 

@Demargon's video

Or even a BMX pump track race would be fun to watch.  @mrelwood's video

 

[egiljo]

I sometimes use a narrow training track of dirt, stone and gravel for jogging or walking in the woods to speed around, tons of fun. Ups and downs, tight turns, slalom and so forth.

Rally style on gravel and dirt is fun, but as @Hunka Hunka Burning Love says its full concentration to be able to react and correct your direction at all the times to not end up in a three etc. 

 

[egiljo]

As for pure looks I think @Rehab1 's mten fits the classic racing look ?

 

I suppose the small wheel on the Mten would be King on a shorter more technical racing track. 

[Rehab1]

Instead of EUCs racing side by side I can see an individual time trial course that incorporates numerous challenges each contestant must navigate through. Best time wins.

 

[LanghamP]

22 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Instead of EUCs racing side by side I can see an individual time trial course that incorporates numerous challenges each contestant must navigate through. Best time wins.

 

You forgot to put unleashed dog and Target shopper stopping you asking what you're riding.

[maxkan]

It is very much possible to race on EUCs, I'd gladly do time trial on a curvy track.. alone:) EUC would look like that: triple redundancy in controlling board, 3 separate batteries

[Gys Wuyts]

At the Wheels Games they did a race, one by one, on a track around the hall, parc and back, with some tricky places...

If place permits, you could do a parallel race like in Snowboarding

 

G

[Mono]

21 hours ago, Gys Wuyts said:

At the Wheels Games they did a race, one by one, on a track around the hall, parc and back, with some tricky places...

Is there possibly any footage of this?

[dmethvin]

On 8/20/2018 at 10:05 PM, LanghamP said:

You forgot to put unleashed dog and Target shopper stopping you asking what you're riding.

Yeah a circular track woud be boring! I would go with a bunch of real world obstacles too:

• Low hanging branches
• Road sign sticking out onto sidewalk
• People walking together, taking up the entire sidewalk
• Jogger with headphones, oblivious
• Little kid jumping random directions
• Giant sidewalk crack pushed up by tree roots
• Car turning right on red without stopping

[Mono]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:24 PM, LanghamP said:

In my opinion, there can be no racing EUC because the fundamental principle of self-balancing would result in a crash <every> time. Pretty much all terrestrial vehicles you open up the throttle on a straight until it won't go faster but no such action is available to EUC racers.

It seems sufficient that the race course doesn't allow to ever reach max speed. To not over-throttle during acceleration is part of the riding skills, like it is with bikes or cars if they do not have traction control (in particular if the track is wet).

[Joshua]

I think this could be possible if the speed limiter were designed a little differently.  Instead of tilt-back, make the controller gradually change to zero response.  As the rider approaches the limit of the machine, it becomes less and less responsive, in a gradual and programmed way.  Riding at the machine's limit would be like trying to balance on a tight-rope.  It would be unnerving, but the speed of the machine would be limited by the rider's ability to balance.  This is kind of like racing around a turn.  You go as fast as you dare; if you go too fast, you slide into a wall.

[Mono]

12 hours ago, Joshua said:

Instead of tilt-back, make the controller gradually change to zero response.

I don't see how the type of the speed limiter changes the underlying problem. Either the speed limiter must be standardized software or the more modest limiter or no speed limitation on the wheel is the most competitive controler. Tilt-back seems the safest limiter, but it is less competitive compared to no limiter at all. This trade off seems hard to circumvent other than that the course is build such that max speed is never reached.

[Keith]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:24 PM, LanghamP said:

In my opinion, there can be no racing EUC because the fundamental principle of self-balancing would result in a crash <every> time. Pretty much all terrestrial vehicles you open up the throttle on a straight until it won't go faster but no such action is available to EUC racers.

I cannot help but think that this above statement is fundamentally flawed. Pretty much all terrestrial racing vehicles, from Formula 1 cars to downhill skiing have a limit beyond which they crash. Given equal machinery the best competitor is the person who can keep his machine right on the limit, faster than everyone else around a course without going over that limit and crashing. I.e. too fast or too cautious you lose.

Surely the EUC is almost a perfect racing vehicle in that respect and @EUC Extreme has beautifully demonstrated this on many occasions, he has also demonstrated that the right safety gear makes this possible mostly without injury ( If I remember correctly he did manage to break something on at least one occasion?) 

There are few other sports with such a powerful need to be able to read the machine and every inch of the terrain. The very fact that there is such a fine line between the maximum lap speed possible and an instant crash is what would make this a terrific racing sport whether it is rally style through torturous terrain or on something more akin to a go cart track! I don’t think multiple riders competing together would be anything near as dangerous as, say motorbike racing.

What it REALLY needs is a sponsored series by one of the big players like KingSong or Gotway, where wheels are provided so every rider is on identical equipment with identical batteries and state of charge so it really does come down to the rider with the highest skill and intuition. Perhaps even an open series with at least two or three companies with some rules on maximum battery capacity, etc. which might really push development of faster and safer wheels?

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Keith said:

I cannot help but think that this above statement is fundamentally flawed. Pretty much all terrestrial racing vehicles, from Formula 1 cars to downhill skiing have a limit beyond which they crash. Given equal machinery the best competitor is the person who can keep his machine right on the limit, faster than everyone else around a course without going over that limit and crashing. I.e. too fast or too cautious you lose.

 

Here's the only EUC race I found; they all look to be riding the titlback but, surprisingly, didn't all crash out like I thought they would.

If you find a straight then in most vehicles you just open up that throttle all the way until the vehicle won't go faster due to wind resistance. That's pretty safe to do; crashes occur during a state change (braking, turning, accelerating out of a turn) but generally not if you're slowly accelerating. No such relaxation is available on an EUC.

In addition, rider mistakes = faceplant whereas most whoopsies on cars or bikes don't usually result in crashes just lost time.

[ir_fuel]

9 hours ago, Keith said:

I cannot help but think that this above statement is fundamentally flawed. Pretty much all terrestrial racing vehicles, from Formula 1 cars to downhill skiing have a limit beyond which they crash. Given equal machinery the best competitor is the person who can keep his machine right on the limit, faster than everyone else around a course without going over that limit and crashing. I.e. too fast or too cautious you lose.

Your logic is flawed.

All your examples have indeed limits that lead to accidents when going over the limit. The big difference is that skilled riders/drivers will feel and play with that limit, going from 99 to 101 back to 99 to 101 % all the time to get the maximum out of what is possible. It's that feeling that makes someone fast. All those activities have in common that when going slightly over the limit there still is a possibility of recovering. The clue is "dancing" around the 100% grip limit. I can't talk about skis (but I presume it is similar) but I have lots of experience with cars and motorcycles on the race track and this is how it works.

There is no such thing with an EUC. Accelerating at 99%, all is fine. You go once to 101% and you face plant instantly. You can't feel the limit approaching except for some completely artificial tilt back that's programmed into the device.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

There is no such thing with an EUC. Accelerating at 99%, all is fine. You go once to 101% and you face plant instantly.

Not quite. You exactly can dance around the 100% limit (that is, optimal sustainable speed) as in the other cases. If you demand unsustainable power for a short moment (i.e. go above 100%) you must lower your CoG and let the wheel catch up under you with a lower load. That will make you lose a little bit of time, but will also prevent the faceplant.

[ir_fuel]

8 hours ago, Mono said:

Not quite. You exactly can dance around the 100% limit (that is, optimal sustainable speed) as in the other cases. If you demand unsustainable power for a short moment (i.e. go above 100%) you must lower your CoG and let the wheel catch up under you with a lower load. That will make you lose a little bit of time, but will also prevent the faceplant.

I don't agree. Once your wheel can't handle what you ask from it it will instantly cut out. The best example are all those riders that ride with constant speed warnings. They are aware they are on the limit yet you still get face plants as it comes very sudden and without any warning. That beep is purely artificial, you don't feel it through the engine or the traction of the tire. 100% software safety check.

[Demargon]

16 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Here's the only EUC race I found

I posted this video some time ago. Looks like a race but we are getting some fun for ride in that RC circuit

I think the euc are more likely a living been, in a race you can exaust it and get a painful reward in a form of a floor diving. Just like the runners, they fall for try to go more fast what they can

[Mono]

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Once your wheel can't handle what you ask from it it will instantly cut out.

If you mean by cut out that it turns off, then no. This was probably true with some Gotways in the past. But even on a very old Gotway MCM2s I could produce overleans and save them. Cutting out would be unacceptable behavior for a modern wheel. You can overlean any wheel if the pedals are long enough and you are heavy enough, but this is a reversable process if you are quick enough and in a suitable position to react.

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

That beep is purely artificial, you don't feel it through the engine or the traction of the tire. 100% software safety check.

Overleaning comes from the physical limitations of the motor. The motor has at any given speed a maximal torque that it can deliver and this torque decreases(!) linearly with increasing speed due to back EMF. It has nothing to do with software safety checks. In particular at higher speed, the torque limitation is not a limitation on components/heat/battery, because it happens at comparatively low currents (and low torque). This is very counterintuitive (the larger the speed, the less possible current flows and hence the less stress we can have on the electrical components)! A few links to this topic are provided here.