Emergency stop

[DiasDePlaya]

Hi everyone!

I'm close to buy my first EU. I found answers to close to every question that I've had so far, but I have a big one that I don't find an answer to: How about emergency stops? Please share your experience and advice about it.

Regards,

Jose from Chile.

[Jag_Rip]

Hi Jose, as you certainly already know, the wheel can brake when you lean back, the harder you lean the faster it stops.

If you lean back hard enough the motor will even start working in the opposite direction to brake even harder. You should train hard stops before you go on public roads so you know how its done and how the wheel behaves in such a moment. Every Rider that can ride at max speed should be able to pull a hard stop without falling off the wheel at any time.
 

[Gimlet]

Just be aware that if you try to stop too quickly in an emergency, especially when going down steep hills at speed you can have the equivalent of "outleaning" the wheel in reverse. The motor just fails and the wheel goes into freewheel ahead of you leaving you sitting or hopefully standing on the ground.

It only happens in severe cases when you ask for more power from the wheel than it is capable of delivering but you should be aware of it nontheless.

[Kroy]

Practising really is the key to stopping suddenly because I think a lot of it is 'the feeling'.

As you know, you can only slow down by leaning backwards, therefore slowing down quickly requires more of a lean.
The practise is needed because as Gimlet says, the wheel obviously has limitations & you want to find out where these limitations are before you need to brake hard.

My own story doesn't come from the wheel's limitations though - I braked hard (leant back a long way) & the wheel wanted to go backwards, this sudden change of direction meant the wheel skidded on the ground momentarily - scared the living daylights out of me but I stayed upright - I could easily have ended up on my back with the wheel bouncing around ahead of me!

[Tilmann]

Practising really is the key to stopping suddenly because I think a lot of it is 'the feeling'.

As you know, you can only slow down by leaning backwards, therefore slowing down quickly requires more of a lean.
The practise is needed because as Gimlet says, the wheel obviously has limitations & you want to find out where these limitations are before you need to brake hard.

My own story doesn't come from the wheel's limitations though - I braked hard (leant back a long way) & the wheel wanted to go backwards, this sudden change of direction meant the wheel skidded on the ground momentarily - scared the living daylights out of me but I stayed upright - I could easily have ended up on my back with the wheel bouncing around ahead of me!

Learning to break to a stop within the shortest possible distance is one of the reasons I am hoping for software improvements. Without suitable information from my wheel, my only option to explore the physical limits is a series of breaking experiments with ending on my sensitive bum about 50% of the time. Call me a coward, but I am hesitant to do that .

What causes my optimism for less painful training options is the fact, that the CPU inside my wheel already has all the data available to tell me with any single braking exercise, how close I was to exceed the available power. Given the right software to turn the data into useful information, my wheel can actually train me to gradually come closer to the limit an warn me, when I get too close (e.g. cutting into the last 10%, or even better: cutting into my individually set reserve).

If we accept to look at our smart phone screen after every braking exercise (I would ), it could show us essentially 2 graphs: power used vs. power available. My training goal: using 90% of the available breaking power as soon as possible and staying on this value until I come to a stop. Gimme 2 hours of that braking training and I'll be the hero of the pack when it comes to stopping at the shortest distance.

Today's EUC controller boards may be a bit short on processing speed and memory, but adding those is a matter of a very few dollars. Otherwise, all the required hardware is in our wheels already. And we may even be able to squeeze a lot more out of the existing hardware, as first insights for example from @esaj's analysis indicates, that the software in use today may not be of the highest quality. That's why I am so excited about the initiatives around @esaj, @jayjay23, @hobby16 and others to gain control of the software, data acquisition and Interfaces of EUCs. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Tilmann

[Donafello]

Wow this is great info. I think learning to brake properly is just as important as learnign to ride. I'm currently working on hard braking but still can't stop as quick as I would want. I can slow it down enough though where if I had to bail I would land on my feet.

[DiasDePlaya]

For me the topic is very important, my plan is to buy a Gotway Msuper high speed version to use it to commute replacing a 125 cc motorcycle, most of the time I will ride in middle of the city traffic because the bicycles roads are just few here in Santiago, Chile, then is very easy that I will need to do emergency stops.

I developed a method to stop a motorcycle from 60 km/h to 0 in just 6 m and I taught my method to more than 400 riders and I received many gratefulness from people that saved his life thanks to my method.

[Tilmann]

I developed a method to stop a motorcycle from 60 km/h to 0 in just 6 m and I taught my method to more than 400 riders and I received many gratefulness from people that saved his life thanks to my method.

Geez, how do you do that??? Throw a 2 ton anchor to the ground and hold on to it? 

If really hard braking is high on your priorities list, you may want to reconsider buying the HS version of the Msuper (I got the MS). I never had the opportunity to try the HS myself, but as I understand from theory, it's a trade in of torque for speed. I'm sure, @vee73 can give you better advice from real experience (he uses the HS version for some pretty extreme riding). Dear experts, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe available torque directly translates to braking force - ergo, less torque from the HS model means more distance to stop from the same initial speed than the MS model needs. Best in this discipline should be the HT model then, but that also limits your to speed quite a bit (Gotway claims 40 km/h for the HS, 34 km/h for the MS and 28 km/h for the HT version).

[MarkoMarjamaa]

[Daan]

For me the topic is very important, my plan is to buy a Gotway Msuper high speed version to use it to commute replacing a 125 cc motorcycle, most of the time I will ride in middle of the city traffic because the bicycles roads are just few here in Santiago, Chile, then is very easy that I will need to do emergency stops.

Do you already have experience on a EUC? otherwise, I would suggest to take it easy at first -- buy a solid & safe wheel and do not go too fast in the beginning; I don't think EUC's are very safe on the road surrounded by cars -- I usually stay on sidewalks or bicycle lanes as much as I can. Just want to caution you a bit -- otherwise eWheels  are super super fun and I love commuting on it when I can  

IMHO, on an eWheel, 22km/hr is already quite fast and most people would have a hard time to run off a fall at that speed... 30km/hr or faster is really only possible on either really nice track or when you are very well protected  (or if you are super human, like @‌vee73 )  (of course, my wheel 'only' goes 24km/hr max, so perhaps I am just envious lol )

Edited September 6, 2015 by Daan

[jayjay23]

In germany you can legally register a segway and due to interest I read through the law that was especially created for that and it mentions that the machine should be capable of a deceleration rate of 3,5m/s² (and it explicitly mentions you should be able to come to an halt :-), just in case that's not clear, haha). Now I didn't have time (neither I'm thinking I'm already skilled enough) but I wanted to carry my mobile phone with acceleration sensor tracking enabled and calculate later what is roughly the breaking 'acceleration' my wheel can gain to see whether it can reach the value written in the segway law. Does anybody has such a value or can easily create it and share, maybe together with a rough skill (riding time) estimation and the used wheel?

Edited September 6, 2015 by jayjay23

[EUC Extreme]

I have not measured the braking distances, but I can say that from a large speed 18 "Gotway Speed version will stop very quickly. But it also requires a very brave leaning. This device must also be compressed drastically between the feet that gets reinforced knees braking., Mere ankles strength may not be sufficient for maximum braking.
But also for normal braking, the braking distance is short.

I would bet that the braking distance is the same as riding a bicycle.

[DiasDePlaya]

Geez, how do you do that??? Throw a 2 ton anchor to the ground and hold on to it? 

If really hard braking is high on your priorities list, you may want to reconsider buying the HS version of the Msuper (I got the MS). I never had the opportunity to try the HS myself, but as I understand from theory, it's a trade in of torque for speed. I'm sure, @vee73 can give you better advice from real experience (he uses the HS version for some pretty extreme riding). Dear experts, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe available torque directly translates to braking force - ergo, less torque from the HS model means more distance to stop from the same initial speed than the MS model needs. Best in this discipline should be the HT model then, but that also limits your to speed quite a bit (Gotway claims 40 km/h for the HS, 34 km/h for the MS and 28 km/h for the HT version).

Here I'm teaching the method, sorry, but the video is in Spanish.

[Marcho]

Emergency stops from a low to moderate speed are OK, but if my speed exceeds 20 km/h and I try braking hard, I find it very difficult to avoid veering sideways and losing control. Any tips, apart from just more and more practice?

[Boris Lämpel]

Hard braking is, IMO, one of the most difficult thinks with an EUC. You have to pay attention on several thinks:

• to brake hard, You have to lean back. That means, the wheel has to accelerate a bit to bring Your body behind it. To avoid that, You can move like You sit down on a chair. But it takes a lot of exercice. It looks like the braking by Adam in that video. With that Technic, You can also adapt how hard to brake.
• In emergecy situations the stop has to happen by itself. I just run over a girl  because I did not know what to do. From that moment on I practiced to brake hard. Reaction time is really important, because You need much time to come to a full stop.
• Braking is influenced by 2 main points: motor power and grip. If You loose grip, there is no chance to control Your braking any more. But to brake with Your back has a quite good deceleration rate .
  I once overpowered the motor on my Z10 by braking very hard and landed on my back. I hurts, but can avoid bigger damage.

I often check the used power and current after hard braking, just to know. Most of my max. braking power is around half of my max. acceleration power. There is some reserve, however. For the Z 10 I can say, that You do not have to fear overpowering, because You can feel it. The motor starts to clack, before it is overpowered.

[mike_bike_kite]

On 9/6/2015 at 7:00 PM, DiasDePlaya said:

Here I'm teaching the method, sorry, but the video is in Spanish.

Are you sure you linked to the right video? The one I'm seeing seems to be a guy demonstrating how to put up a market stall. 

[.....]

Emergency stopping is tough. I havent mastered it by any means, so I just figure it's not an option. Mediocre stopping goes decent, but wobbles sometimes get the best of me during VERY hard braking. It took a few poor decisions to realize just how far it takes me to slow from high speed for a hard turn. Lets just say that its not as fast as having hands full of brake levers. I'd imagine that practicing emergency stopping is a good idea. I'll eventually get around to it... or not. I've yet to come even close to the limits of stopping power of any of my 3 wheels. The rider is the weakest link...

@mike_bike_kite I don't speak spanish, but it looks like hes demonstrating how to supervise putting up a market stall. Darn pesky megaphones... I didnt understand a word of it, but somehow couldnt......stop.......watching.....

Edited October 23, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Marcho]

15 hours ago, Boris Lämpel said:

Hard braking is, IMO, one of the most difficult thinks with an EUC. You have to pay attention on several thinks:

• to brake hard, You have to lean back. That means, the wheel has to accelerate a bit to bring Your body behind it. To avoid that, You can move like You sit down on a chair. But it takes a lot of exercice. It looks like the braking by Adam in that video. With that Technic, You can also adapt how hard to brake.
• In emergecy situations the stop has to happen by itself. I just run over a girl  because I did not know what to do. From that moment on I practiced to brake hard. Reaction time is really important, because You need much time to come to a full stop.
• Braking is influenced by 2 main points: motor power and grip. If You loose grip, there is no chance to control Your braking any more. But to brake with Your back has a quite good deceleration rate .
  I once overpowered the motor on my Z10 by braking very hard and landed on my back. I hurts, but can avoid bigger damage.

I often check the used power and current after hard braking, just to know. Most of my max. braking power is around half of my max. acceleration power. There is some reserve, however. For the Z 10 I can say, that You do not have to fear overpowering, because You can feel it. The motor starts to clack, before it is overpowered.

 

[Marcho]

Thanks, Boris Lämpel. That makes sense. Still, I understand that basically the message is simply "practice, practice, practice". In the meantime, I'm making sure I slow down to less than 20 km/h a long way before any potential hazards (T-junctions, parked cars, groups of people, traffic lights, etc.).

[MikieSWE]

On 9/6/2015 at 8:03 AM, DiasDePlaya said:

Hi everyone!

I'm close to buy my first EU. I found answers to close to every question that I've had so far, but I have a big one that I don't find an answer to: How about emergency stops? Please share your experience and advice about it.

Regards,

Jose from Chile.

Just mount a emergency stop to your wheel.
 

Edited October 25, 2020 by MikieSWE
spelling

[MikieSWE]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:59 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

Emergency stopping is tough. I havent mastered it by any means, so I just figure it's not an option. Mediocre stopping goes decent, but wobbles sometimes get the best of me during VERY hard braking. It took a few poor decisions to realize just how far it takes me to slow from high speed for a hard turn. Lets just say that its not as fast as having hands full of brake levers. I'd imagine that practicing emergency stopping is a good idea. I'll eventually get around to it... or not. I've yet to come even close to the limits of stopping power of any of my 3 wheels. The rider is the weakest link...

@mike_bike_kite I don't speak spanish, but it looks like hes demonstrating how to supervise putting up a market stall. Darn pesky megaphones... I didnt understand a word of it, but somehow couldnt......stop.......watching.....

I add to this emergy stop / braking. Well, it is obvious we need to do it smetime(s). Correct me if I am wrong now... why should we put ourselves in an situation we need to do this? I am a bit soft when it comes to these matters. I keep way away from the possible situations. However, and yes I know, it will come up my face as well, where I need to do the immediate halt. Happened many times. Every time I have just added that distance up on me. I am aware of that we can not trust other people in the traffic, or wherever. I have few videos of my mistakes enough to prove this fact. All and everyone id pointing at me, for misjudging the situation. My best suggestion is that, be alone for any tricks and treat you want to do, and in middle of public.. take it very calm. We are very exposed out there, regardless protection or not. Keep safe, bro.