What is the minimum protection you wear?

[Rywokast]

Just now, Stan Onymous said:

Yes they are very different. The sudden power loss leaves no time to react since it is usually at the highest point of acceleration too...

yikes, bad luck >.>

[Rehab1]

59 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

The other night I was riding on the V10F with the headlight off on the backside of Griffith Park the V10F did its best to get me out of most of the huge missing chucks of road, but there was one that was just too much, and knocked me off in a dead stop. I went over the top of the V10 and did a roll. I was only going around 8-10 mph but somehow I over exerted or over extended my shoulder and upper arm muscles. I am still icing it up twice a day, between rides Ha! 

Glad your semi Ok. Keep up the icing.

[novazeus]

flip flops, although i have gone naked barefooted before, so i guess nothing.

[Thai-lad]

6 hours ago, Ipsiain said:

Im going with the thinking of, the more kitted out you are with saftey gear, the more dangerous you look and the more attention you draw to yourself. No saftey gear and people may think you are just riding a gimmick toy and not a dangerous unpredictable speed machine.

 I know by law that I am not permitted to ride my ecu on public roads and areas, having said that I’ve passed multiple police officers on the road in cars and on the pavement on foot and not one person has stopped me. Infact ive had police cars give way to me in normal traffic situations as if I were a car. I can only speculate to the reactions if i were kitted out

[Mono]

18 hours ago, Toshio Uemura said:

Just for reference: Look at Chooch Tech two years ago.

He takes way more risks than anybody should, for himself and for others, and I am quite sure safety gear makes him taking more risks than he would without. It is fun to watch, and I admire is riding technique, but that's not a good justification to be OK with risking other people's health.

 

[Mono]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:34 AM, mkygod said:

Being a new rider, i've never experienced a serious fall before. What's worse: having the wheel suddenly turn off on you without warning or hitting a large pothole or root on the ground that you didn't notice?

Are the falls very different between these two situations?

It largely depends on experience and riding skills. Surprisingly, it is possible, in principle and in practice, to ride an EUC with the motor off. This is quite difficult to do and even if you can do it you are not likely to stay on the EUC when it silently cuts off (which very rarely happens anyways).

Out of my head I can remember two low speed (≈10km/h) incidents where the EUC just stopped under me. Once the wheel was blocked in the shell by a piece of wood, once the EUC was blocked by a curb which I had overlooked during night. In the first case I face-planted and in the second case I just moved on on my feet without the EUC. I attribute the different outcomes to my improved skills to remain always upright whatever the EUC is doing under me. My last four falls were all while riding backwards, in which case it is quite a bit more difficult to run it off when the EUC disappears under my body.

It is hard to see why the wheel silently turning off should be much more difficult to handle than the wheel getting caught by a curb. The idea that when the EUC stops pushing, the body inevitably starts to rotate head front is, AFAICS, not physically justified. I recommend to keep the upper body always upright and to keep the knees bent and soft. I usually accelerate without leaning the upper body (but it needs effort to change habits). I have experimented with turning off the wheel at very low speed (≈2km/h) and mounting the wheel turned off at zero speed. It feels very scaring, but I didn't faceplant in any of these experiments.

[Mono]

On 8/18/2018 at 10:22 PM, Toshio Uemura said:

An advanced EUC rider wearing no protective equipment looks cool and makes the hobby appear harmless, non-threatening, easy and casual but may send the wrong message to children and carries the risks we are all aware of.

IMHO it is quite arguable what the "wrong" or "right" messages are. Gearing up like darth vader, or even just wearing a helmet, makes this mode of transportation unattractive for many or even for the majority of people. The usage statistics for bicycles by country is negatively correlated with helmet usage and helmet laws.

Now we have the (kind-of obvious) choice: do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where many people use EUCs but most of them without safety gear, or do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where few(er) people use EUCs but most of them with safety gear. Depending on the answer we may decide which message is the "right" one. Or, by choosing the message, the answer is given implicitly.

[Toshio Uemura]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

IMHO it is quite arguable what the "wrong" or "right" messages are. Gearing up like darth vader, or even just wearing a helmet, makes this mode of transportation unattractive for many or even for the majority of people. The usage statistics for bicycles by country is negatively correlated with helmet usage and helmet laws.

Now we have the (kind-of obvious) choice: do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where many people use EUCs but most of them without safety gear, or do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where few(er) people use EUCs but most of them with safety gear. Depending on the answer we may decide which message is the "right" one. Or, by choosing message, the answer is given implicitly.

First of all the actual picture here is not a woodblock print that has only blacks and whites. There are nuances in this picture, there is something between “gearing up like DV” and wearing no prectction at all.

In Japan every kid wears a helmet, when riding a ? bicycle. So it becomes second nature, as if putting on a safety belt, when you sit in a car. Common sense. Nobody feels threatened by that. Same with skiing and snowboarding. It’s just something you do without a second thought and without triggering thoughts in others that share that public space with you. And IMHO it is not arguable if some pedestrian ?‍♀️ crosses an intersection at a red light with children present even if he might argue his (bad) example teaches kids freedom and independence. It is just ignorant and irresponsible regarding the kids that watch him. So, ignorant or responsible by choosing the message, the answer is given implicitly.

[Thai-lad]

58 minutes ago, Mono said:

IMHO it is quite arguable what the "wrong" or "right" messages are. Gearing up like darth vader, or even just wearing a helmet, makes this mode of transportation unattractive for many or even for the majority of people. The usage statistics for bicycles by country is negatively correlated with helmet usage and helmet laws.

Now we have the (kind-of obvious) choice: do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where many people use EUCs but most of them without safety gear, or do we rather want to live in a neighbourhood where few(er) people use EUCs but most of them with safety gear. Depending on the answer we may decide which message is the "right" one. Or, by choosing message, the answer is given implicitly.

IMHO there is no argument about "right" or "wrong" messages at all.  Wearing the minimum protection needed to get the maximum amount of protective benefit is, in my view, the only sensible choice. If people are attracted to EUCs initially, but then give it up after a severe injury, that's not going increase rider numbers long term.  If EUCs contribute in a major way to well publicized injuries, and the press pushes the issue, they may well get banned completely.  If they get an even worse reputation for safety and causing injury than they already have, that too will not increase rider numbers.

People who voluntarily put on protection have at least a minimal sense of self preservation.  They may take a few more chances than if they were riding unprotected, but experience will soon teach them what their own limits are.  Daredevils and adrenaline junkies, on the other hand, will be more likely to eschew protection as it cuts down on the "thrill", at least until they experience enough of their own painful lessons.  Which they hopefully survive with minimum long term effects.

People here in Thailand use motor scooters far more frequently than they do in the west.  Last year, the death toll from motorcycle accidents was 8,900 people according to one press report.  That only includes deaths that occurred at the scene, and not those that happened on the ambulance ride or in the hospital.  Injuries and severe and lasting brain trauma are also not reported.  I'd hate for that to be the case for EUCs in the future.

 It doesn't take a PhD in neuroscience to recognize that helmets could have significantly reduced the number and severity of the head injuries.  No, it wouldn't have been enough to save everyone, or maybe even a majority.  But bones mend and bodies heal.  Brains, on the other hand, are not so resilient.  If you chose to ride without protection, so be it.  It's certainly more comfortable and convenient.  But don't try to justify it as anything more.

[Toshio Uemura]

14 hours ago, Rywokast said:

haha yes i was being sarcastic i have seen many crash videos.. that would be the main problem with eucs is little to no warning whatsoever.. ooh ouch, did the wheel run away from you back down the hill?

No luckily it didn’t. It was just lying there next to my feet, when I came out of the planetarium. ? 

[Mono]

37 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

First of all the actual picture here is not a woodblock print that has only blacks and whites. There are nuances in this picture, there is something between “gearing up like DV” and wearing no prectction at all.

Sure, that's why I added or even just wearing a helmet in the very same sentence 

Quote

In Japan every kid wears a helmet, when riding a ? bicycle. So it becomes second nature, as if putting on a safety belt, when you sit in a car. Common sense. Nobody feels threatened by that. Same with skiing and snowboarding. It’s just something you do without a second thought and without triggering thoughts in others that share that public space with you.

True, children have much less of a choice and of freedom in what they can or can't do. They also don't give the impression of being a thread, and they are not used as examples of how to behave by adults.

As for skiing and snowboarding, I don't see it as a particular problem if wearing helmets has a deterring effect on these, because I don't find it particular desirable that more people should ski or snowboard. But after all it comes down to a similar trade off between frequency in the habit vs frequency in wearing protection.

 

Quote

And IMHO it is not arguable if some pedestrian ?‍♀️ crosses an intersection at a red light with children present even if he might argue his (bad) example teaches kids freedom and independence. It is just ignorant and irresponsible regarding the kids that watch him.

I have heard that argument many times, but do we have actual research suggesting that crossing at a red light has adverse consequences on the kids watching? Are Japanese and German children really better off than Italian or French, or is it after all just an insignificant cultural difference?

[Toshio Uemura]

16 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

But don't try to justify it as anything more.

People who are waiting in line for a brain pacemaker sadly try to do that all the time! ??

[Mono]

 

25 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

IMHO there is no argument about "right" or "wrong" messages at all.  Wearing the minimum protection needed to get the maximum amount of protective benefit is, in my view, the only sensible choice.

16 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

It doesn't take a PhD in neuroscience to recognize that helmets could have significantly reduced the number and severity of the head injuries.

I don't compare EUCing to motorcycling and I don't think they are comparable at this point in time. There is virtually no scientific debate over the validity of helmet laws for motorcycles. That is not true by any means when it comes to bicycles.

If you like your opinions being challenged on wearing helmets in the context of cycling, you may check out these articles: Bikes, Helmets, and Public Health: Decision-Making When Goods Collide or Bicycling injury hospitalisation rates in Canadian jurisdictions or The Latest Evidence That Helmet Laws Don't Help Bike Safety

[Toshio Uemura]

7 minutes ago, Mono said:

insignificant cultural difference

You are right: it is a cultural difference, but it is not insignificant. 

Road fatalities per 100.000 people per year are 4.7 for Japan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

[Thai-lad]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

 

I don't compare EUCing to motorcycling and I don't think they are comparable at this point in time. There is virtually no scientific debate over the validity of helmet laws for motorcycles. That is not true by any means when it comes to bicycles.

I

I beg to differ.  The majority of scooter riders in Thailand are riding between 30 km/hr and 60 km/hr (I do 80-100 km/hr on mine, but my scooter is a bit bigger than most).  Bike riders are usually doing 10 to 20 km/hr.  In the videos I've seen posted, bikers are never passing the EUCs, it's always the other way round.  And with the latest generation of EUCs with ever bigger wheels, motors, batteries, weights and top speeds, the comfortable traveling speed of the EUCs is only increasing.  If we all wanted to just travel at bicycle speeds, we'd be riding Segways...

[Mono]

46 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

You are right: it is a cultural difference, but it is not insignificant. 

Road fatalities per 100.000 people per year are 4.7 for Japan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

right, and the difference between Japan and Italy or France is astonishingly small (of course the number per inhabitant is a very bad normalization, per km the effect is funnily enough reverted) and I am pretty sure you do not know the reasons for the difference either, so you don't know the significance of any of the many cultural differences between Japan and these countries, so to claim it is the crossings of intersections at a red light with children present is about as unjustified as a claim can be.

Fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km:

4.9 Germany
5.8 France
7.1 USA
8.0 Japan
n/a Italy
n/a Thailand

Funny, but I didn't expect Japan to be (that much) worse than Germany or France in this statistics.

Fatalities per 100k vehicles:

6.5 Japan
6.8 Germany
7.3 Italy
7.6 France
12.9 USA
74.6 Thailand
 

[Mono]

48 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

In the videos I've seen posted, bikers are never passing the EUCs, it's always the other way round.

I bet you haven't watch many videos made by cyclists 

Generally, EUCs pass bicycles uphill and bicycles pass EUCs downhill.

Most EUCists don't possess a high end wheel and hence they are not reflected in what we can see in most videos, like most cyclIsts don't have an average above 25km/h, while some do. I am totally on board that the decision of whether to wear a helmet should take into account the individual average and maximum speed of the specific rider.

Of course this may change in future with more powerful and yet affordable EUCs entering the market (but then we also see more and more electric assisted bicycles), but currently the speed distribution for EUCs and bicycles looks overall pretty close to me.

[Thai-lad]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

I bet you haven't watch many videos made by cyclists 

Generally, EUCs pass bicycles uphill and bicycles pass EUCs downhill.

Most EUCists don't possess a high end wheel and hence they are not reflected in what we can see in most videos, like most cyclIsts don't have an average above 25km/h, while some do. I am totally on board that the decision of whether to wear a helmet should take into account the individual average and maximum speed of the specific rider.

Of course this may change in future with more powerful and yet affordable EUCs entering the market, but currently the speed distribution for EUCs and bicycles looks overall pretty close to me.

I'm not speaking about the spandex wearing 20 speed carbon fiber biking crowd, nor the Tesla speed junkies.  Neither are typical.

Still the majority of videos now being posted are being filmed riding on EUCs which far surpass the capabilities of the early wheels, as well as the typical 3 speed bicycle, or even an average person commuting on a ~$100 ten/twelve speed bike.  Even the newer mid-range EUCs are beginning to overlap small motorcycles in their capabilities.   As these are the riders setting the example,   they should be protectively attired, in my view.  Most especially if they are themselves manufacturers or dealers.  Seeing this, people then buying them would hopefully have more reasonable expectations about the degree of care and protection needed when riding them.  But perhaps that's wishful thinking on my part.  Still I think this thread will have served a useful purpose if it gets anyone to think again about the pros and cons of riding, as it were, bareback.

[Dingfelder]

9 hours ago, Mono said:

I have experimented with turning off the wheel at very low speed (≈2km/h) and mounting the wheel at zero speed. It feels very scaring, but I didn't faceplant in any of these experiments.

That's a cool challenge and reminds me of what I'm trying to do learning to ride a regular unicycle now.  Training to be able to rely more and more on your own balancing skills (if you need to) sounds to me like a wise investment in safety.

People often stop challenging themselves, and their skills stop developing.  If you have the stomach for it, frequently trying to do things a little outside of your comfort zone is very often a great idea.

 

 

[Dingfelder]

5 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

I beg to differ.  The majority of scooter riders in Thailand are riding between 30 km/hr and 60 km/hr (I do 80-100 km/hr on mine, but my scooter is a bit bigger than most).  Bike riders are usually doing 10 to 20 km/hr.  In the videos I've seen posted, bikers are never passing the EUCs, it's always the other way round.  And with the latest generation of EUCs with ever bigger wheels, motors, batteries, weights and top speeds, the comfortable traveling speed of the EUCs is only increasing.  If we all wanted to just travel at bicycle speeds, we'd be riding Segways...

Does anybody consider the danger of the flying EUC itself?  (I know we have, it's mostly a rhetorical question.)  My MSuper V3 is super heavy and I think it could severely damage another person, or just property, if it went flying at speed.  The idea of that thing being launched at me is terrifying.  And then there's the idea of my 215 lb body being launched into a crowd at high speed or flattening some kid.  

Anytime we talk about the danger to ourselves of riding EUC's, especially fast, I hope we keep in mind the danger to others too.  Maybe we shouldn't even be putting ourselves in the position to severely injure our heads in the first place?  Or at least trying to minimize it unless we're not very close to people.  If I die or get hurt, that's a damn shame ... but I sure don't want to take anyone with me!

[novazeus]

11 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Does anybody consider the danger of the flying EUC itself?  (I know we have, it's mostly a rhetorical question.)  My MSuper V3 is super heavy and I think it could severely damage another person, or just property, if it went flying at speed.  The idea of that thing being launched at me is terrifying.  And then there's the idea of my 215 lb body being launched into a crowd at high speed or flattening some kid.  

Anytime we talk about the danger to ourselves of riding EUC's, especially fast, I hope we keep in mind the danger to others too.  Maybe we shouldn't even be putting ourselves in the position to severely injure our heads in the first place?  Or at least trying to minimize it unless we're not very close to people.  If I die or get hurt, that's a damn shame ... but I sure don't want to take anyone with me!

i have from the very beginning when mine arrived. i think they sb covered with like a foam rubber exterior and sharp edges removed.

but yeah, on rider protection, my theory is ride naked at a speed u would be comfortable to fall off at, and then maintain that same speed and wear a helmet for maximum safety.

first time i tore the ligaments in my knee and had to spend six weeks in a leg cast is because i had gotten a new face shield for my bell helmet and i went too fast on my penton 125 dirt bike because i thought i was invulnerable. i was wrong.

[Mono]

34 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Does anybody consider the danger of the flying EUC itself?  (I know we have, it's mostly a rhetorical question.)  My MSuper V3 is super heavy and I think it could severely damage another person, or just property, if it went flying at speed.  The idea of that thing being launched at me is terrifying.  And then there's the idea of my 215 lb body being launched into a crowd at high speed or flattening some kid.  

Anytime we talk about the danger to ourselves of riding EUC's, especially fast, I hope we keep in mind the danger to others too.  Maybe we shouldn't even be putting ourselves in the position to severely injure our heads in the first place?  Or at least trying to minimize it unless we're not very close to people.  If I die or get hurt, that's a damn shame ... but I sure don't want to take anyone with me!

I couldn't agree more.

[Dingfelder]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

first time i tore the ligaments in my knee and had to spend six weeks in a leg cast is because i had gotten a new face shield for my bell helmet and i went too fast on my penton 125 dirt bike because i thought i was invulnerable. i was wrong.

Yikes.  I hurt my knee fairly badly (only on crutches once though) four times so I know something of how that feels.  I am very worried about knee safety these days and though I'm willing to take up something inherently dangerous like EUC's and unicycling, I'm definitely not willing to take it lightly.

[novazeus]

26 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Yikes.  I hurt my knee fairly badly (only on crutches once though) four times so I know something of how that feels.  I am very worried about knee safety these days and though I'm willing to take up something inherently dangerous like EUC's and unicycling, I'm definitely not willing to take it lightly.

i was 19 then, 64 now. and if i’m taking a warm shower and move just right, it will feel like it’s popping out, still. not often though.

[LanghamP]

6 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

Does anybody consider the danger of the flying EUC itself?  (I know we have, it's mostly a rhetorical question.)  My MSuper V3 is super heavy and I think it could severely damage another person, or just property, if it went flying at speed.  The idea of that thing being launched at me is terrifying.  And then there's the idea of my 215 lb body being launched into a crowd at high speed or flattening some kid.  

 

I was quite surprised to see my V5F immediately stop wobbling and continue onward on several of my crashes; shouldn't wheels be setup so they gradually slow down and tip over if their rider falls off?

Despite the MSuper's weight, I would consider it along with any other wheel to be minimal in regards to danger as the wheel's height is well below even a child. I'm thinking the worse a wheel could do to an adult is make them look like they've been in a minor knife fight with a midget assuming the pedals hit them just right.

No one's been killed yet by an EUC (or a Limebike / electric scooter). How many people are killed by cars?