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Lukasz

Ninebot Z10 - power supply Charge Doctor mod

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On 8/3/2018 at 10:29 PM, smallexis said:

Anyway it's no possible to have a load with more than 2A, the BMS's "security" make a cut off if the current is over 2.1A. I have made a test at 3A, 2.5A and 2.2A.

Which charger did You use for that?  Using two ORIGINAL  Ninebot chargers allow 4A charging...  see below.  This information has not been confirmed in any formal way by Ninebot.  

DISCLAIMER:

Please do not experiment with third party, cheap, unknown, almost similar, almost original, and in any other way altered chargers.  Li-Ion battery is like full tank of gasoline! Beware of fire, destruction, property loss, lost lives, lost sight, etc.  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!   I take no responsibility for your own experiments and mods!  Do not blame me for damage or loss or in any other way.

 

20180804_040357.jpg

Edited by Lukasz

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Please find below my final version of universal fast charging solution - full setup include 2 pcs of the original Segway-Ninebot chargers for Z10  (afaik those are the same models as for Ninebot Mini model)  connected together using Charge Doctor . this solution gives You full control over the charging.  I use 2 chargers only in specific situation when I really have no time to charge in regular way.  (this sometimes happens when I make long rides during saturday/sunday, and I return home in mid day for short time only, so I want to add 100-300 wh quickly. (I needed that for Kingsong KS16S, so far with Ninebot I did not discharge it below 50% yet... 

  • Please be informed that such use of two chargers is not approved by Ninebot and can cause damage to the wheel !
  • Never use different TYPE / BRAND NAME OF chargers in the set !
  • Never fast charge to full capacity! if You use fast charging limit it to 90% of charge max.

With current 995 wh capacity and 60+km range of Z10 and use of charge doctor (so charging to 58.0V only, but each night) I find no real need of fast charging ...     (according to several sources - charging the Li-Ion batteries between 30% - 90% of capacity can be performed safely without battery degradation for 3000 charges or more - (which gives us almost 10 years of charging every day....)) far beyond the moral life of the product (by that time we will by flying instead of riding for sure)

Charging to max 90 % of capacity and to full 100% only when 100% range is needed is used widely by TESLA 

To make this installation safe - I strongly suggest to use original chargers of the exactly same type only.  If You could spend 2000$ for the wheel , for sure You can spend 50-80 $ for the second original charger and extra $ for charge doctor which is great device ! (normally I charge my wheels on daily basis only to around 90 % by setting the switch-off voltage on Charge Doctor, and only once every week to 100% to blance cells (charge to 100% by single charger only!)

 

5_P1150032.jpg

Edited by Lukasz

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On 8/3/2018 at 4:30 PM, Ziiten said:

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I saw some 14s chargers or are they 2x7s for 100-200€. But I think I'll be sticking with the std charger for now. I guess the plug NB uses is proprietary. At least havent seen anything like that. Would have to sacrifice the NB charger if building a new one.

Ninebot monowheels and gyropods have used so far 15S batteries ie, 54V nominal (value used in battery specs) and 63V max (value on the sticker on the charger's back).

They have "downgraded" to 14S batteries (51V nominal, 59V max) on the Z10, which is a technical error and a regression IMHO. Powerful wheels need higher voltages to reduce ohmic loss, it's not as if the wheel diameter was too small to allow for more wiring (associated to higher voltage), there is plenty space in a monowheel's motor! The trend for higher voltages is general on other high end wheels like Inmotion V8, V10, GW, KS18L (20S, 84 Vmax) or even higher with the GW 100V (24S, 100 Vmax).

The plus side of this blunder is 14S chargers are much more common, hence easy to find and cheap. They are used on a lot electric scooters, like the Speedway 4, you can find them around 30 euros. Of course, Ninebot must find a way or another to screw the wheeler, by using a from-the-outer-space connector in order to sell its proprietary charger.
But a generic 14S charger with GX16-3 connector (like on the Speedway 4) can be used to charge the Z10 with the hack described by @Lukasz (awesome hack, kudos to Lukas).
BTW, if someone knows the name of this bl@#&! Z10 connector (which is also now on some lastest Ninebot gyropods), I am interested. I've searched it sometimes now for the Charge Doctor, without sucess.

 

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On 8/5/2018 at 1:26 AM, Lukasz said:

Please find below my final version of universal fast charging solution - full setup include 2 pcs of the original Segway-Ninebot chargers for Z10  (afaik those are the same models as for Ninebot Mini model)  connected together using Charge Doctor . this solution gives You full control over the charging.  I use 2 chargers only in specific situation when I really have no time to charge in regular way.  (this sometimes happens when I make long rides during saturday/sunday, and I return home in mid day for short time only, so I want to add 100-300 wh quickly. (I needed that for Kingsong KS16S, so far with Ninebot I did not discharge it below 50% yet... 

To make this installation safe - I strongly suggest to use original chargers of the exactly same type only.  If You could spend 2000$ for the wheel , for sure You can spend 50-80 $ for the second original charger and extra $ for charge doctor which is great device ! (normally I charge my wheels on daily basis only to around 90 % by setting the switch-off voltage on Charge Doctor, and only once every week to 100% to blance cells. 

 

5_P1150032.jpg

@smallexis ???

 

didnt you say the charge current isnt allowed to come over 2,1 Amps?

What was your setup? looks like it is easy doable to have a “fast charger”....

No offense!!! Just asking......

 

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After a few days of use - I have set the cut off voltage for Charge Doctor to 58.0 Volts.  After the charge Ninebot application shows 97% , but this  is in fact around 110-115 wh to full charge.  For my personal daily rides around 900wh in the batteries offer more than sufficient range because so far I did not manage to go much below 50%  when I return from daily ride. On Fridays I will charge to 100% to have full range for Saturday longer runs.

  • Please be informed that such use of two chargers is not approved by Ninebot and can cause damage to the wheel !
  • Never use different TYPE / BRAND NAME OF chargers in the set !
  • Never fast charge to full capacity! if You use fast charging limit it to 90% of charge max.

With current 995 wh capacity and 60+km range of Z10 and use of charge doctor (so charging to 58.0V only, but each night) I find no real need of fast charging ...     (according to several sources - charging the Li-Ion batteries between 30% - 90% of capacity can be performed safely without battery degradation for 3000 charges or more - (which gives us almost 10 years of charging every day....)) far beyond the moral life of the product (by that time we will by flying instead of riding for sure)

Charging to max 90 % of capacity and to full 100% only when 100% range is needed is used widely by TESLA 

Edited by Lukasz

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On 9/2/2018 at 8:51 PM, cg said:

Where did you get that second ninebot Z10 charger from ?

Sorry for late answer -  I have ordered second charger together with next Z10 on Ali.  but I confirm that this is exactly the same charger as for Mini Plus

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5 hours ago, Lukasz said:

Sorry for late answer -  I have ordered second charger together with next Z10 on Ali.  but I confirm that this is exactly the same charger as for Mini Plus

No problem, and thank you. Second Z10:thumbup:? You need three if you have to be able to ride 'ALL' the time:roflmao:

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I am now making my first charge using the charge doctor, but looking at the manual on the website it is not obvious to me how to set the voltage charging limit.

I understand I can disable 'auto shutdown from current, and that i can adjust he current limit.

@Lukasz, you mention you charge to 58V. Can you share how the voltage limit is applied?

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9 hours ago, cg said:

Lukasz, you mention you charge to 58V. Can you share how the voltage limit is applied?

@cg  press and hold the button on the charge doctor first. then connect the power to it.  In the top line You will see "Auto"   and in the bottom line Voltage limit, release the button shortly then press it again to  change the switch-off voltage value. Set to 58.0V 

done!

 

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17 hours ago, Lukasz said:

@cg  press and hold the button on the charge doctor first. then connect the power to it.  In the top line You will see "Auto"   and in the bottom line Voltage limit, release the button shortly then press it again to  change the switch-off voltage value. Set to 58.0V 

done!

 

Thanks, it worked, but after charging to 58.0V, the battery says it is 99% and 98% charged :/ is that to be expected? to me it seems a bit high

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So here is my Chargedoctor +Z10 setup.

I ordered from @hobby16 one Chargedoctor v2 double charging gx16-3pin and two set of gx16-3pin male/female (so I can connect it to my friends generic 14" from 2015 :) )

Connected as instructed from hobby:

GX16 pinout !

pin 1 = V+
pin 2 = not connected.
pin 3 = 0V 

the pin numbers are marked on the connector, on my charger, red was (+) and black was (-), of-coruse, you should measure the voltage before connecting anything.

I didn't take any photos during the process... but I have started making a 3d printed 'charging station' for two chargers and the chargedoctor... I must have been drunk when  I made it, so there will come another version later, nut for now it looks like this :)

(the holes are 'pipes' for zip ties )

WIN_20180924_22_07_27_Pro.thumb.jpg.6826bc7c3852619ba38e6b111e68877f.jpg

WIN_20180924_22_07_42_Pro.thumb.jpg.a5a3e7adcb05a276652d1f1aea0370be.jpg

WIN_20180924_22_06_13_Pro.thumb.jpg.f3e122f6aba5da3696619c3c9d7f1d35.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, cg said:

Thanks, it worked, but after charging to 58.0V, the battery says it is 99% and 98% charged :/ is that to be expected? to me it seems a bit high

NB has "problem with counting % right"  :laughbounce2:  in fact battery is charged to around 90%  - make simple test - when charge doctor switch charging off at 58,0 V,  switch charging off, then re-connect power again pressing the button first - change the voltage on the charge doctor to 58,8 V , set charge meter to zero and start charging - battery shall accept around 90-110Wh  to the green led on the power supply....

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5 hours ago, Lukasz said:

NB has "problem with counting % right"  :laughbounce2:  in fact battery is charged to around 90%  - make simple test - when charge doctor switch charging off at 58,0 V,  switch charging off, then re-connect power again pressing the button first - change the voltage on the charge doctor to 58,8 V , set charge meter to zero and start charging - battery shall accept around 90-110Wh  to the green led on the power supply....

I see, I will try.

it makes sence since my travel to work was from 100% to 34% battery charge, then using charge doctor at work, it went from '99%' (58V) to 25% at home, both tome i added arround 770Wh, two charges now 1538Wh ;)

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just drove to work today after charging to 58V, and arrived with 46.6V, wheellog was sayng 14%battery, and I had to drive panfully slow, think I will charge to 58.1V

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Just charge it completely up and enjoy it.  It may even last longer as in units like the MiniPro Ninebot only balances the cells after full charge.  I don't know that the Z10 does the same, but I would suspect so.  If the Z10 has the battery segment display that after fully charge can 'flash' all 5 segments then it likely has balancing as only after the segments flash is the pack balanced.   

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5 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

Just charge it completely up and enjoy it.  It may even last longer as in units like the MiniPro Ninebot only balances the cells after full charge.  I don't know that the Z10 does the same, but I would suspect so.  If the Z10 has the battery segment display that after fully charge can 'flash' all 5 segments then it likely has balancing as only after the segments flash is the pack balanced.   

this is a bit contradicting what others are saying here, that the battery should be keept between 30-8X%, and only every ~10'th time charge to 100%, since I discharge below the 30% anyway it might be better. I am no expert on this, only mentioning what I observed in other posts regarding this.

I think you are right the balancing only happens when charged 100%, As I understand, that is why it should be done every now and then.

Btw, it doesn't flash, and all 5 indicators are already on at 58V.

Do you have the MiniPro, and how many chargecycles have you done with it?

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7 minutes ago, cg said:

this is a bit contradicting what others are saying here, that the battery should be keept between 30-8X%, and only every ~10'th time charge to 100%, since I discharge below the 30% anyway it might be better. I am no expert on this, only mentioning what I observed in other posts regarding this.

I think you are right the balancing only happens when charged 100%, As I understand, that is why it should be done every now and then.

Btw, it doesn't flash, and all 5 indicators are already on at 58V.

Do you have the MiniPro, and how many chargecycles have you done with it?

I know a lot of people say try to make the batteries last longer by putting them at less than a full charge, but it is not so simple.  Battery life is very dependent on usage profile, a radio and a well used power tool in construction get different battery life for the same cell.  As the voltage drops the current demands on the cells will be greater, higher current loading is likely to shorten the live more than anything else.  So I say charge it and use it as it was designed, the first 50% of the pack is the best enjoy it.    Everyone's situation is different, but when you start talking about 58 vs 58.1 I have to laugh.

Yes the 5 segments don't tell you much, put on the stock charger, after the light turns green leave it on the wheel for a while (couple of hours or more as balancing is slow), after that do the segments flash?  if not there maybe no way to tell when the pack is balanced which would be bad.  However; Ninebot was very confusing in their limited documentation and they may have removed that.

I cannot say how many cycles I have on any one minipro as I use 3 different batteries and I think I'm just into the 900km range now on my main one. 

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7 hours ago, cg said:

it makes sence since my travel to work was from 100% to 34% battery charge, then using charge doctor at work, it went from '99%' (58V) to 25% at home, both tome i added arround 770Wh,

How long is Your way to work?  770Wh seems to be around max of the "safe use available Wh level" which for 995Wh battery in Z10 may be something like 800Wh. (those are all theoretical values) so You should charge to 58.1V  (observe at which voltage the current starts to drop, and set this voltage as max) You have a few choices:

-  Increase the tire pressure,

-  ride slower

-  go on diet ;-)   (my 30kg lighter than me daugher consume something like 100Wh less per 30 km ride)

Something to observe - do You keep the wheel in warm place before You start your trip? Li-Ion batteries like warm climate... so keep the wheel in house, battery is well insulated inside, so it will keep the temperature during the ride also by heating itself due to discharge.  I have no idea if NB made the range tests also in the cold climate...  Denmark can have very nasty winds and around 0C or less in winter...  so too cold for optimal battery performance...

Edited by Lukasz

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39 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

How long is Your way to work?  770Wh seems to be around max of the "safe use available Wh level" which for 995Wh battery in Z10 may be something like 800Wh. (those are all theoretical values) so You should charge to 58.1V  (observe at which voltage the current starts to drop, and set this voltage as max) You have a few choices:

it is only 34km, today perhaps 36since I was in the shop first, there was a bit of wind, and the road has many elevation changes, you can see the elevation here:

 

45 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

Increase the tire pressure

I used to ride with 30PSI, felt like hell, now riding with 20PSI, range seems comparable, but perhaps a few percent more I would get.

46 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

ride slower

Yeah, I tri, but it seems to now work ;)

47 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

go on diet ;-)   (my 30kg lighter than me daugher consume something like 100Wh less per 30 km ride) 

are you sure its not because your daughter ride less agressive, btw my weight is 78kg, so not much to reduce.

47 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

do You keep the wheel in warm place before You start your trip?

Yes, keept in my appartment, temperature ~22-24 degrees

System temperature Today seems to be hovering arround 25 degrees, it is pretty cold now, so I have big winterjacket and warm gloves.

2 hours ago, FreeRide said:

Yes the 5 segments don't tell you much, put on the stock charger, after the light turns green leave it on the wheel for a while (couple of hours or more as balancing is slow), after that do the segments flash?  if not there maybe no way to tell when the pack is balanced which would be bad.  However; Ninebot was very confusing in their limited documentation and they may have removed that.

I have left it all night, usually that is how it charges so it is ready for morning ride, I will monitor.

2 hours ago, FreeRide said:

So I say charge it and use it as it was designed, the first 50% of the pack is the best enjoy it

I agree, soon my work is moving closer to my home, so battery usage can be better within that range when used for commuting, already have 1304km range after one month and 5 days :D

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4 hours ago, cg said:

I used to ride with 30PSI, felt like hell, now riding with 20PSI, range seems comparable, but perhaps a few percent more I would get.

I started from 30 psi, made a few tests with 25 and 20 psi and ended with 25 psi. I am around 80kg, but with clothes/backpack it is around 90 kg. 20 psi is very soft, but I think it is too soft / can be dangerous in case of bigger bump/stone/curb

 

4 hours ago, cg said:

System temperature Today seems to be hovering arround 25 degrees, it is pretty cold now, so I have big winterjacket and warm gloves.

We have probably the same weather front here - now it is only 6.9 deg.C  so - the same here - new Endura gloves, full face helmet and thicker jacket...  I ride till deep snow...

 

4 hours ago, cg said:

as balancing is slow), after that do the segments flash?

I have never seen Z10 battery display flashing (till now - i will observe... )

 

4 hours ago, cg said:

already have 1304km range after one month and 5 days

So it seems to be great commuting tool..  I really enjoy practical use of unicycle for accessing work, stores, friends, (over 1200 km in less than 2 months)- I use unicycle every day with all possible trips except big shopping. 

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