If you could only have one, what’s the best EUC?

[Fazer12779]

I’m taking in to consideration: Performance - Reliability - Looks - Practicality.

I think to integrate with peoples daily lives, a trolley handle is a must & size (as I put my Ninebot one E+ in my gym locker).

Also manufacturers should make the battery simply clip out (like on a cordless drill) this would help with flying issues & range options.

I was considering upgrading my Ninebot one E+ to either: Gotway Msuper X - Ninebot Z10 or Kingsong KS18L. Considering the YouTube reviews & my experience, I think the Kingsong KS18L is the best, as it’s reliable - fast & practical without being too big & overly heavy. 

What’s your thoughts?

[LanghamP]

Hmm, hard one since only after owning a fair number of wheels can you figure out exactly what you want.

Personally, I would be choosing either an MCM5 or a KS18L. I'm much more of a 14 incher than any other size wheel, 14 inchers feel fantastic.

Why the 18L? I've crashed my brains out on every size wheel but the 18 inchers. I've noticed not many riders crash their bigger wheels, it doesn't seem to happen very often.

I'd guess 14 inch wheels and below are extremely dangerous to ride because they get easily cought on lips of <something>. You're floating along and, whump, the wheel isn't anywhere underneath you. Depressingly, I've taken to riding at a walking pace over grass when on my 14 inchers because of exactly that reason.

Still, MCM5 all the way, baby. In red.

[Mike Paolini]

My MCM5 comes in Thursday, I plan to do videos on it.   Having ridden the KS18L I can say its a very solid wheel with no surprises, sort of a scaled up KS16s.  It might be a very good choice as a solo wheel.  However, if you think you will own more than one, I'd consider skipping it as being too similar to others you might get.   Far better to specialize in my mind.

Also worth thinking about if you only go one wheel,  is a solid 16" like the Tesla or KS16s.

Big wheels are great, but they are heavy, expensive, and lack agility, response, and zip.   That's why you hear us talk lovingly about the smaller ones.  

[Thai-lad]

The best depends on how you rate the relative importance of weight, size, style, maneuverability, stability, range, safety, reliability (including weather proofing), connectivity and tunability, other optional features like lights or trolleys, and of course, price.  No two people will have the same order of priorities, in fact the order anyone gives will likely differ depending on the particulars of the next ride they're planning. That's why they end up with multiple wheels.

[Mark Lee]

Once you get your hands on one of newer wheels and get bitten by EUC bug   Resistance is futile  Just get one in every size  Happy wheeling 

[Thai-lad]

For me I've gone round and round trying to decide my first wheel, while already resigning myself to the fact that, like the TV ad said, you can't eat just one.

[Stan Onymous]

On 8/1/2018 at 10:35 AM, LanghamP said:

Why the 18L? I've crashed my brains out on every size wheel but the 18 inchers. I've noticed not many riders crash their bigger wheels, it doesn't seem to happen very often.

Just put some “Finishing scratches on my new KS18L. You will be happy to know that the shape of the 18L keeps it from skidding too far from you. It held up perfectly, just a few brush stroke type of scratches.

I you are taking a tight turn on the KS18L and are leaning into the turn too much, beware of any large bumps while you are completing your arc, because thats what I hit. After trying to stay on after being bumped to hanging over the front of my vehicle I tried to get the 18L to accelerate under me so I regain my footing. This caused my wheel to start the wobbles, anyone who has tried to steer their vehicle while crouching down will understand this, and I had to jump off. Got about 3 or 4 steps in before I just went to wrist guards and feet. Somehow my hip hit the ground too, so I am getting a hip pad belt too.

The hips are a totally unserved by protection part of the body desperately in need of just as much regular padding as your elbows are.

But I would choose a 16” wheel with a replaceable battery and near 40kph 24mph speed. 2.5” width tire too. Speakers please so I can blast real music to the poor poor poor souls of the younger generations. Poor poor poor souls....

[Mike Paolini]

11 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

For me I've gone round and round trying to decide my first wheel, while already resigning myself to the fact that, like the TV ad said, you can't eat just one.

If you've gotten to that point, then you should plan them out so they don't over lap.  ?

Here's how I see it.  

If you are only going to have one wheel, they you are looking at 16" probably, and in that category: ACM2, Tesla, KS16s all make sense - pick your styling and application.  

If you are going with more than one wheel then 14" and 18" are the places to start, and that leaves you the following choices.  For 14" I think personally think MCM5 is king of the hill (so to speak right now - I only have a few miles on it right now, but wow).   For 18" I think you are looking at KS18L, mSuper X, Z10 rated from more passive to more engaging.   If you rate them by speed it would be MSX, KS18L, Z10.    If you are learning, you may find the 18" easier than the 14" just because they offer more bracing for your leg and more stability when the tire is rotating.  That being said, they also are heavy and harder to turn. (If you are brand brand new, I'd really consider buying a small used EUC like a KS14 off someone while you learn and beating the hell out of it before jumping to serious money).

Going 14" & 18 gives a good 4" separation, and leaves room for a 10" in you later decide you are interested in the mTen3.

Worth say is that all of these though are pretty much intermediate to advanced wheels, and very powerful.  So if you jump straight to them, be extra careful and mindful of their power.

Just some thoughts in case it helps.    

[Juick]

I can't speak for the other wheels but I have the 18L for a week now and I absolutely love it. It is the wheel I always wanted, but because I was cheap, it eventually cost me more.  Going from generic EUC to Inmotion V5F then V8 and now finally KS18L. I always liked both Inmotion wheels I had,  but they always felt like not enough. Not enough range, not enough speed... I fell in love with the 18L the moment I first stepped on it. No learning curve whatsoever, it is wonderfuly stable and maneuverable as well.

If you want to lock it in a gym locker, you need a big locker. It is compact for an 18 inch,  but still a lot bigger than 14 inch wheels and a lot heavier too. I will probably still take my old V5F for short trips where portability is required. 

[Thai-lad]

 

1 hour ago, Mike Paolini said:

If you've gotten to that point, then you should plan them out so they don't over lap.  ?

Here's how I see it.  

If you are only going to have one wheel, they you are looking at 16" probably, and in that category: ACM2, Tesla, KS16s all make sense - pick your styling and application.  

If you are going with more than one wheel then 14" and 18" are the places to start, and that leaves you the following choices.  For 14" I think personally think MCM5 is king of the hill (so to speak right now - I only have a few miles on it right now, but wow).   For 18" I think you are looking at KS18L, mSuper X, Z10 rated from more passive to more engaging.   If you rate them by speed it would be MSX, KS18L, Z10.    If you are learning, you may find the 18" easier than the 14" just because they offer more bracing for your leg and more stability when the tire is rotating.  That being said, they also are heavy and harder to turn. (If you are brand brand new, I'd really consider buying a small used EUC like a KS14 off someone while you learn and beating the hell out of it before jumping to serious money).

Going 14" & 18 gives a good 4" separation, and leaves room for a 10" in you later decide you are interested in the mTen3.

Worth say is that all of these though are pretty much intermediate to advanced wheels, and very powerful.  So if you jump straight to them, be extra careful and mindful of their power.

Just some thoughts in case it helps.    

Just thinking out loud here, but sometimes it helps to get other's feedback on one's thoughts, so here goes.

Duf mentioned in one of his videos, the idea of wishing he'd learned on a cheap $200 wheel that he could have beat up without concern.  Others have pointed out these underpowered toys are quickly outgrown, and frustrating to ride, and prone to accidents.  Another member here recommended getting a used wheel, but one with some lasting useful value once the initial learning stage was completed.  I think the idea has merit, and if I can find a good deal on something like a used KS14C/D or MCM2s in reasonable condition, I probably will choose that option.  One of my main concerns for a first/commuter wheel is weight, I don't want to lug 20 kilos up the stairs to my classes, staying under 15 kg is my goal.  

 

If I can't find a decent used wheel available at the time I'm ready to pull the trigger (probably the end of this month), then I'll hold off another paycheck or two then get a new wheel.  This is scenario number 2.  Here, my choices have narrowed to KS14S and MCM5.  The KS ticks all the boxes on my priorities list, and can double as an dirt road weekend exploration bike. But the MCM5 is even more attractive to me, especially after watching Marty going and going and going,  even though it is really too heavy.  I could, however, compromise on my weight limit and leave the wheel in the teacher's lounge on a lower floor if I can't con a student to carry it upstairs for me, so I'm still sorely tempted.

For scenario 3, I also considered an i5 and MTen3 as a commuter/learning bike option. But I'm concerned the 10" wheel would short out running through puddles (it rains a lot) and maybe would be too squirrely for a new rider to commute with (though it's less than 2 miles to work).  The i5 would be a great commuter option, since speed is not necessary for such a short ride, and the commute is on wide, well surfaced and low traffic roads.  But I'd have to get another wheel to go exploring with on the weekends ASAP, as I don't think it would be very workable on the pothole filled surfaces or unpaved gravel of the local back roads.  My choice then of the backroads explorer would likely be whichever one had the greatest range, perhaps an ACM2?  

I know that several of my choices for a first wheel are more difficult to learn on than the KS series would be, but I'm not that worried about it, to tell the truth.  I'll spend whatever time it takes to learn to ride whatever I get.  Though I'm on the far side of 60, I still have a good sense of balance.  I ride a motorcycle daily, and can stand on a stationary balance board till I get bored.  I know there are others here riding who are much older than I am, who also started riding at a mature age

I've looked at other brands' wheels but ruled them out due to cost, safety, reliability, poor local availability, or just not generally as good an option as the wheels I've listed for the uses I expect to put them.  I'll keep my 125cc scooter for rides over an hour long, I don't intend to go on long distance tours on my wheel(s). 

Anything obvious I've overlooked?  Have I drunk enough of the Kool-Aid yet?

[US69]

I personally would choose the KS18L or the Msuper X...

I own the pre KS18 -18S- since over a year, installed a trolley and integrated it as my daily commuter. (3000km now without ANY problems)

Also the new Msuper X looks interesting , as it -seams- to have an more reliable board now, and i owned the Msuper V3 and from daily handling it was perfect, too! With this now even much more power....i would love to have one, too!

Even if i did not have the chance to ride it, the Z10 seams to be to „special“ for me. Thats what nearly every reviewer said about it.

Also i find it to expensive and heavy for its capacity!

my 2 cents...

[Marty Backe]

53 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

 

Just thinking out loud here, but sometimes it helps to get other's feedback on one's thoughts, so here goes.

Duf mentioned in one of his videos, the idea of wishing he'd learned on a cheap $200 wheel that he could have beat up without concern.  Others have pointed out these underpowered toys are quickly outgrown, and frustrating to ride, and prone to accidents.  Another member here recommended getting a used wheel, but one with some lasting useful value once the initial learning stage was completed.  I think the idea has merit, and if I can find a good deal on something like a used KS14C/D or MCM2s in reasonable condition, I probably will choose that option.  One of my main concerns for a first/commuter wheel is weight, I don't want to lug 20 kilos up the stairs to my classes, staying under 15 kg is my goal.  

 

If I can't find a decent used wheel available at the time I'm ready to pull the trigger (probably the end of this month), then I'll hold off another paycheck or two then get a new wheel.  This is scenario number 2.  Here, my choices have narrowed to KS14S and MCM5.  The KS ticks all the boxes on my priorities list, and can double as an dirt road weekend exploration bike. But the MCM5 is even more attractive to me, especially after watching Marty going and going and going,  even though it is really too heavy.  I could, however, compromise on my weight limit and leave the wheel in the teacher's lounge on a lower floor if I can't con a student to carry it upstairs for me, so I'm still sorely tempted.

For scenario 3, I also considered an i5 and MTen3 as a commuter/learning bike option. But I'm concerned the 10" wheel would short out running through puddles (it rains a lot) and maybe would be too squirrely for a new rider to commute with (though it's less than 2 miles to work).  The i5 would be a great commuter option, since speed is not necessary for such a short ride, and the commute is on wide, well surfaced and low traffic roads.  But I'd have to get another wheel to go exploring with on the weekends ASAP, as I don't think it would be very workable on the pothole filled surfaces or unpaved gravel of the local back roads.  My choice then of the backroads explorer would likely be whichever one had the greatest range, perhaps an ACM2?  

I know that several of my choices for a first wheel are more difficult to learn on than the KS series would be, but I'm not that worried about it, to tell the truth.  I'll spend whatever time it takes to learn to ride whatever I get.  Though I'm on the far side of 60, I still have a good sense of balance.  I ride a motorcycle daily, and can stand on a stationary balance board till I get bored.  I know there are others here riding who are much older than I am, who also started riding at a mature age

I've looked at other brands' wheels but ruled them out due to cost, safety, reliability, poor local availability, or just not generally as good an option as the wheels I've listed for the uses I expect to put them.  I'll keep my 125cc scooter for rides over an hour long, I don't intend to go on long distance tours on my wheel(s). 

Anything obvious I've overlooked?  Have I drunk enough of the Kool-Aid yet?

You may know that I own the 14S and MCM5, and at this point believe the MCM5 is the better wheel although the 14S is still very nice. A person may still prefer the looks and features of the 14S.

I do believe that the MCM5 will not be an easy wheel to learn on, but of course is doable.

Both wheels weigh about the same I would think.

[Thai-lad]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You may know that I own the 14S and MCM5, and at this point believe the MCM5 is the better wheel although the 14S is still very nice. A person may still prefer the looks and features of the 14S.

I do believe that the MCM5 will not be an easy wheel to learn on, but of course is doable.

Both wheels weigh about the same I would think.

The 14S is just a couple of kilos lighter, according to the info I've found.  Not a lot, but when you're climbing multiple flights of stairs in 90 degree heat, the weight seems to multiply .  I already know just how it feels to carry that load on flat ground, since I routinely carry both 15 and 20 kilo bags of dry dog food around my place (a Bullmastiff and a Rottweiler eat a lot of kibble in a week).  I can only anticipate how lovely it will be to trudge up the stairs with it.

Still, I think I'll probably go for the 800Wh blue MCM5 ...   anyway, whatever wheel I end up with, it will still be the best looking wheel in town.  As it'll be the only one.  Till I saw your MCM5 mountain climbing vid, I was all set to pick the KS...  

[Mike Paolini]

I'm in the process of uploading my unboxing and initial ride and thoughts on the MCM5 to YouTube, it's at 51% now and should be complete within the hour.  You might find it interesting ( I do not have the link for the video yet, but the channel is here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1lVGDc5patXa4QgkUlgyA ) . 

For what it is worth, I learned at 48, just make sure to pad up and respect them.  20 mins a day for a week or two and you should  be golden (it's going to take a while to build up the stabilizer muscles and to wire/grow your new synapses for control).    

I'm really not sure how I feel about the MCM5 as a beginner wheel - it has so much power and acceleration and it's shape means you don't brace your legs against it (which is a learning crutch).  As an intermediate advanced wheel though, wow.   mTen3 is light weight, and I've done 16 miles on all kinds of terrain on it.  The Gotway videos show it going through puddles as well.  While a harder wheel (because of its size), I suspect it would be easier to learn on than the MCM5.    It's also very well behaved at speeds of 12 mph or less and you have a short commute.
 

[hal2000]

I have already ridden all of this year's cool premiers (V10F, 18L, MSuperX and Z10) and I have subjectively chosen 18L

My weight: 100 kg + gear

Daily commute:: ~20km

Purpose: 80% means of transport + 20% riding for fun

Driving style: "semi-dynamic"

Typical max range at full charge: (1020Wh): 45 km

BTW: dunno how big your gym locker is but at my gym none of the above fits inside any of the lockers. My gym has private area bicycle stands though and 18L has convenient holes in the wheel rim to put the security lock through  Much safer than using handle-bar for that purpose.

[Carl Svanfelt]

Choosing a wheel is not that easy, but for me it became a 16 inch wheel after much consideration. Now I hate an love it, the KS16-C.
If you look at what we write here on the forum, you can understand that the best wheel has not yet been manufactured. It's like a computer, if you're always waiting for the best, you can wait forever. It pays out to buy what meets your needs at this moment. There are three characteristics that you will need very very soon: a wheel that is easy to maneuver, a battery that's good for long distances and a top speed better than an cyclists speed.
If I were to buy a wheel today, it would probably be a Gotway Msuper X or Ninebot One Z10.

[Marty Backe]

38 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

The 14S is just a couple of kilos lighter, according to the info I've found.  Not a lot, but when you're climbing multiple flights of stairs in 90 degree heat, the weight seems to multiply .  I already know just how it feels to carry that load on flat ground, since I routinely carry both 15 and 20 kilo bags of dry dog food around my place (a Bullmastiff and a Rottweiler eat a lot of kibble in a week).  I can only anticipate how lovely it will be to trudge up the stairs with it.

Still, I think I'll probably go for the 800Wh blue MCM5 ...   anyway, whatever wheel I end up with, it will still be the best looking wheel in town.  As it'll be the only one.  Till I saw your MCM5 mountain climbing vid, I was all set to pick the KS...  

I'm not at home, but PM me as a reminder and I can weigh both wheels for you. Sunday.

[dieterGRAMS]

One wheel eh? My 3 picks would be TESLA > 18L > MCM5

The Tesla is just a great wheel that gives you the best of everything and isn't too heavy. The 18L feels like a more robust Tesla with better clearance but slower acceleration (better than MSX tho). And 14" wheels are just in an area of their own. Where my MSX feels like riding a motorcycle, my MCM4 feel like gliding on a nimble ball thats quick off the line. I would like to see an upgraded Mten3 style tire on the MCM5 

[Thai-lad]

10 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

I'm in the process of uploading my unboxing and initial ride and thoughts on the MCM5 to YouTube, it's at 51% now and should be complete within the hour.  You might find it interesting ( I do not have the link for the video yet, but the channel is here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1lVGDc5patXa4QgkUlgyA ) . 

For what it is worth, I learned at 48, just make sure to pad up and respect them.  20 mins a day for a week or two and you should  be golden (it's going to take a while to build up the stabilizer muscles and to wire/grow your new synapses for control).    

I'm really not sure how I feel about the MCM5 as a beginner wheel - it has so much power and acceleration and it's shape means you don't brace your legs against it (which is a learning crutch).  As an intermediate advanced wheel though, wow.   mTen3 is light weight, and I've done 16 miles on all kinds of terrain on it.  The Gotway videos show it going through puddles as well.  While a harder wheel (because of its size), I suspect it would be easier to learn on than the MCM5.    It's also very well behaved at speeds of 12 mph or less and you have a short commute.
 

Decisions, decisions...  I'm hoping my practice time on a balance board (think Bongo boards) will have built up some of the muscles and reflexes I need to keep a wheel upright, absent the center bracing and pads.  But I also realize balancing a lightweight wooden plank on a 8" high fulcrum vs a 20 kilo wheel on a 4" high pivot point are significantly different tasks, the wheel will have a lot more momentum to deal with.  In that aspect, the lighter MTen3 would certainly be easier.  As I said, decisions, decisions...  looking forward to the vid..  

[egiljo]

There's so many good choices, but for me it has to be a 18" wheel or bigger.

I have loved to ride the MSuper V3 for 2 years now and would not go back to a smaller wheel for my use case (gravel, off-road and general cruising)

 

 

 

[Mike Paolini]

1 hour ago, Thai-lad said:

 

43 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

Decisions, decisions...  I'm hoping my practice time on a balance board (think Bongo boards) will have built up some of the muscles and reflexes I need to keep a wheel upright, absent the center bracing and pads.  But I also realize balancing a lightweight wooden plank on a 8" high fulcrum vs a 20 kilo wheel on a 4" high pivot point are significantly different tasks, the wheel will have a lot more momentum to deal with.  In that aspect, the lighter MTen3 would certainly be easier.  As I said, decisions, decisions...  looking forward to the vid..  

It's not just balancing the wheel, rather it's balancing the wheel and yourself as the road causes the wheel to shift under you.  The tire is going to bounce and squirm, it's going to follow tracks in the road and so on.  Then of course the wheel also has a mind of it's own, the control board, that causes it to react and do things and peddles can range from very soft to rock solid.  So hopefully you've built the stabilizer muscles, but learning to put them to work in 6 axis of freedom may be a different thing entirely for a little while.  

All that being said just did a quick 10 mile ride on the MCM5 around the neighborhood (because I could) -and  it's still a joy to ride on day two.  Also I might have been too fast in saying not a good learning wheel, because there is enough contract area of the leg, it's just rounded at the top so you don't get the full length of support (but an mTen3 would not give you that either at 17 inches).  Also right now after riding the MCM5, I really can't see a reason to get on the old 18" mSuper v3 I've borrowed, I think the MCM5 may fill that niche for me too.  ( I'm not a speed guy, having driven motorcycles most of my life, you'd think otherwise, but I'm too keenly aware of all the things that could lead to going down at speed and what happens when you do go down - I wish to keep myself <30 mph which is more than enough to hurt, so speeds not a reason for the 18" to me.  Maybe range will be, I have yet to do a full test on the MCM5 to know - though I will say I noticed the that Gotway app is incorrectly reporting the battery %.  It showed 60% when I finished my ride and let it cool down  a bit, but the charge plugging in to bring it to 80% already had it there or higher via voltage - and I believe the charger more than the app.  Also the lights on the MCM5 showed 90% not 60%.  It would be nice if Gotway would throw some resources at their app.).

Unboxing videos is finally up here:  

 

[Stan Onymous]

3 hours ago, US69 said:

 

Even if i did not have the chance to ride it, the Z10 seams to be to „special“ for me. Thats what nearly every reviewer said about it.

Also i find it to expensive and heavy for its capacity!

my 2 cents...

I found the Z10 to have the exact opposite ride of the V10. The V10 is like silk. It is so smooth, and responds instantly to your every whim.

The Z10 is clunky and feels exactly like I would imagine a one wheeled Segway two wheel to drive. It is unresponsive to your actual directioning and seems to tell you - No no no, you do it THIS way. It is fun if learning a new way to ride is your game, but I felt it to be too much of a bother. I have enough to look out for without a below seat driver telling me where and how to go.

my 2 cents.

[Thai-lad]

6 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

It's not just balancing the wheel, rather it's balancing the wheel and yourself as the road causes the wheel to shift under you.  The tire is going to bounce and squirm, it's going to follow tracks in the road and so on.  Then of course the wheel also has a mind of it's own, the control board, that causes it to react and do things and peddles can range from very soft to rock solid.  So hopefully you've built the stabilizer muscles, but learning to put them to work in 6 axis of freedom may be a different thing entirely for a little while.  

Sure, I understand no static balance training will adequately substitute for time on the wheel. That said, I am getting a circular balance disk today to add a second degree of freedom to my routine to develop better forward/backward balance and coordination.  I can feel my leg muscles are developing already. After only a couple weeks of training, my inner calves and knees complain a bit, so I'm hoping it's having a beneficial effect that will reduce the amount of time it takes to get used to riding a wheel once it comes.  

I do plan to ride behind a shopping cart for a while once I master basic mounting and dismounting.  Several people have mentioned using that training technique and it makes sense to me.  Also, with no way to add a retainer strap to the wheel due to it's handle design, I will have to invest in some bubble wrap and duct tape.  I don't need any finishing scratches the first few weeks, they can come later!

 I'm thinking the bigger 14" wheel will have fewer issues of getting knocked off course by irregularities in the road than the 10" wheel, which will offset the difficulty of controlling the heavier ride with just my feet.   What do you think?

I loved your portable disco light vest and motocross protection outfit.  Thanks for the video.  Confirms my suspicion that this is gonna be a lot more fun than an 18" KS would be for me.  It did concern me a bit when the owner's manual said don't ride in the rain though, lol.

So for all the reasons posted previously, I think my first, or at least main wheel, will likely be an MCM5, to respond to the OP's original question.

[Mark Lee]

12 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

will likely be an MCM5, to respond to the OP's original question.

You can't go wrong with the MCM5 IMHO.  Be forewarned though MCM5 is not a beginner wheel as @Marty Backe mentioned.  For me it took ~200 miles to get the feel of its potentials and I have ~2k miles since this January on other wheels.  You will have such a good time getting to know this wheel I sorta envy you.  You won't regret the best commuter wheel on the market IMO.  Most of all MCM5 is a blast to ride.   

[LanghamP]

Apparently the MCM5 is the sleeper wheel of 2018; 14 inchers don't generally get much love but the MCM5 is making everyone drool.

If you can financially afford it, the MCM5 plus one of the newer 18 inchers would be the perfect combo for some years. It only takes under a year to break even if you ride a wheel instead of drive, and if you can forgo a car entirely it takes just two months to break even on a 1k wheel. Cars cost an average of 8k (post tax!) per year. Cars make one poor.