MsuperX Pedal Angle Adjustment

[Adel]

Anyone who recently purchased MsuperX, and especially if you are upgrading from Msuper, you notice immediately the difference in the pedal angle on the MsuperX which is much sharper.

Here's the measurement of the Msuper pedal which is about 80°:

In contrast, the MsuperX measurement comes out at 75°:

For myself and others, the new pedal angle on the MsuperX is uncomfortable. However there are others who are OK with it and may even prefer it, YMMV.

Anyhow, I decided to modify the pedals of the MsuperX so that they match the Msuper ones exactly. I give credit to @mrelwood who I think first suggested the solution described below but first.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDATION. PERFORM AT YOUR OWN RISK ! YOU CAN EASILY DAMAGE YOUR PEDALS AND MAKE THEM UNUSABLE !

The modification involves very careful removal of pedal material using metal files until the desired angle is reached. 

Here are the tools used :

To adjust the pedals, I carefully filed in small increments the area of the pedal that comes in contact with the pillar. Then put the pedal back and measured the angle and repeated this process many times until the angle matched the desired amount. This needed to be done in very small steps because if too much material is removed, the pedal is ruined and would have the opposite problem of too large pedal angle. Here are pictures of one of the modified pedals after about 20 minutes of labor on each one:

 

 

Afterwards painted the pedals and installed better grip tape (optional)

Finally here's the pedal installed on the MsuperX and now measures 80° which is the same as the Msuper:

So far, the modified pedals feel much more comfortable to me. Still need to test them for longer and more demanding rides to see how they perform and check if the wheel dynamics have not been negatively affected.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Adel
Annotated pedal picture to answer question.

[Alien Rides]

Nice work, this is awesome! I'm definitely going to do something similar to this. Or maybe you could just sell me your pedals? ?

[Jason McNeil]

18 hours ago, Adel said:

Anyone who recently purchased MsuperX, and especially if you are upgrading from Msuper, you notice immediately the difference in the pedal angle on the MsuperX which is much sharper.

Thanks so much for the feedback! Change request is going onto the every increasing checklist of changes from the stock production.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Thanks so much for the feedback! Change request is going onto the every increasing checklist of changes from the stock production.

There are many people (including me) that like the new angle on the pedals. FYI, it's like the angle on the KS14C, if you can remember those pedals.

[eddiemoy]

I think people who come from KS are fine with the angle of the pedals.  Not sure what that stuff from Ecodrift was about since they should be used to the pedal angle if they ride KS.  I think the inmotion pedal angle or lack there of makes it feel like you are slipping.  took some getting used to.

 

 

[RockyTop]

It would not be very difficult to make the peddle angle adjustabale. The strongest and easiest way would be removable shims. You could also have a screw adjustment but it would not be as strong.

Edited August 2, 2018 by RockyTop

[Adel]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

It would not be very difficult to make the peddle angle adjustabale. The strongest and easiest way would be removable shims. You could also have a screw adjustment but it would not be as srong.

I like the idea of adjustable pedal angle the best. Different people have different ergonomics and body types and what works for one person doesn't for somebody else. 

That way you can tune the pedal angle to your preference the same way that you can tune the calibration angle of the pedal.

[Adel]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I think people who come from KS are fine with the angle of the pedals.  Not sure what that stuff from Ecodrift was about since they should be used to the pedal angle if they ride KS.  I think the inmotion pedal angle or lack there of makes it feel like you are slipping.  took some getting used to.

 

 

I also happen to own a KS16 and can confirm that the pedals on it are flatter than the MSX.

[Marty Backe]

37 minutes ago, Adel said:

I also happen to own a KS16 and can confirm that the pedals on it are flatter than the MSX.

The KS16S?

The older KingSong wheels had steep angled pedals.

[Adel]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The KS16S?

The older KingSong wheels had steep angled pedals.

It's the KS16-B I have, I think KS16-S might be the same but I'm not sure.

[US69]

13 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The KS16S?

The older KingSong wheels had steep angled pedals.

 

7 minutes ago, Adel said:

It's the KS16-B I have, I think KS16-S might be the same but I'm not sure.

It have been the 14c...and the first 500/800Watt versions of 18a that had that angled pedals...

the 16b/c had less angled pedals...the 16s and 18ay/s then again a bit more angled...but not that much like on this Very, very old 14c style square metal pedal without any rubber or sandpaper....

Edited August 1, 2018 by US69

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, US69 said:

 

It have been the 14c...and the first 500/800Watt versions of 18a that had that angled pedals...

the 16b/c had less angled pedals...the 16s and 18ay/s then again a bit more angled...but not that much like on this Very, very old 14c style square metal pedal without any rubber or sandpaper....

Thanks, I was hoping you'd stop by and give us the facts behind the KS pedals. I remember thinking that the 14C pedals were really angled, but I got used to them and they were great for keeping your feet on the wheel.

[Jpd]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

There are many people (including me) that like the new angle on the pedals. FYI, it's like the angle on the KS14C, if you can remember those pedals.

I’ll second that! I think if you give it a little time you’ll adjust to it. Now , when I ride my v10f the flat pedals bother me. I feel like my feet are locked in on the msx.

[RockyTop]

A wider wheel should have more angle because your feet are further apart. A person with longer legs or wider hips would have a flatter pedal because the width of the wheel would then make less of a difference to them.

[US69]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Thanks, I was hoping you'd stop by and give us the facts behind the KS pedals. I remember thinking that the 14C pedals were really angled, but I got used to them and they were great for keeping your feet on the wheel.

As you have said it:

For me -also- thats just an adjustment of 3-4 days to get used to!

So i would have no problems at all with the MSX ....my opinion is that it just „locks“ you in very good....

As a experienced rider you should have no probs to move your feet a bit in front/back if they are getting tired!

Edited August 1, 2018 by US69

[mrelwood]

17 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I think people who come from KS are fine with the angle of the pedals.  Not sure what that stuff from Ecodrift was about since they should be used to the pedal angle if they ride KS.  I think the inmotion pedal angle or lack there of makes it feel like you are slipping.  took some getting used to.

I think the MSX pedals or pedal arms might have enough production variation in the angle to be a non-issue for some, and showstopper for others. My other pedal was at 13, the other at 15 degrees. Had both been 13, it might’ve been tolerable. Both at 15 would’ve been too much for most. I do come from a 16S.

If the MSX wouldn’t have a sharp upper edge to press on riders leg, I think even more riders would be ok with the pedal angle. Once I found a good sidepad solution, I would’ve been fine with a steeper pedal angle than what I lowered mine to. All these things interact.

The V10F is definitely at the other end of the spectrum. Whenever I try my friend’s, it feels like it has a negative angle.

Edited August 2, 2018 by mrelwood

[eddiemoy]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I think the MSX pedals or pedal arms might have enough production variation in the angle to be a non-issue for some, and showstopper for others. My other pedal was at 13, the other at 15 degrees. Had both been 13, it might’ve been tolerable. Both at 15 would’ve been too much for most. I do come from a 16S.

If the MSX wouldn’t have a sharp upper edge to press on riders leg, I think even more riders would be ok with the pedal angle. Once I found a good sidepad solution, I would’ve been fine with a steeper pedal angle than what I lowered mine to. All these things interact.

The V10F is definitely at the other end of the spectrum. Whenever I try my friend’s, it feels like it has a negative angle.

That was my first impression at the V10F demo, it felt like the pedals were bent downwards.  

I think everyone is built differently.  I didn't have any issues with the side pads, but I don't do tricks with the MSX like 1 legged riding, etc...  It hits me about mid leg.  I thought the pads were comfortable as in I didn't notice it being uncomfortable.  But again, it could be the production issue where they are not placing the pads correctly and you are feeling the shell?  Or it could be foot placement, I find I tend to have my feet flush with the shell so my leg hits the pad squarely, not at the top corner.  I can imagine if you stand with your feet wide, then you will hit the top corner of the top of the shell.

 

[LanghamP]

I know we've discussed pedals several times, but why have such small and highly angled pedals?

1. Are the pedals angled in order to give more ground clearance? If so, just make the pedals higher and angle them less.

2. Are pedals angled so when you hit bumps you magically land better than non angled bumps? This doesn't seem to be the case with me with V5F versus KS16 (most angled to least angled).

3. The pedal size always seems too small, and my feet hit the ground on turns, especially the slow tight ones, with my KS16. Just a bit higher up, please.

4. On the Inmotion V5 the angle is so uncomfortable that I slightly raise the heel of my inside leg just so the ankle doesn't get cranked over. Ridiculous.

What's wrong with perfectly flat pedals? You go through a fast fast turn, centripetal force pushes you down, and with the more inward pedals your feet get forced towards the shell. I don't like this at all; it's quite uncomfortable as my ankles get turned inward.

I understand this is a pretty minor thing, and easily fixable. Shims would go a long way towards wheel comfort rather than "hack it yourself".

[Adel]

18 hours ago, US69 said:

As you have said it:

For me -also- thats just an adjustment of 3-4 days to get used to!

So i would have no problems at all with the MSX ....my opinion is that it just „locks“ you in very good....

As a experienced rider you should have no probs to move your feet a bit in front/back if they are getting tired!

I had the MSX for more than 3 weeks to get accustomed to it before I did the mod. This also happens to be my 4th wheel, so I consider myself fairly experienced rider.

For me, I could not find a way to get consistent comfort with the new pedals. For limited situations, they were somewhat tolerable for brief periods. On the one group ride I took it on, where we ride for longer distances and higher speeds, it was torture on my legs and hips.

I accept the fact that some people may not experience the same issues as myself and may even prefer the new pedals, but there is also evidence from a number of experienced riders of the opposite case.

So I think EUC manufactures should publish the pedal angles as part of EUC spec sheet. Better yet, they should manufacture them so that they can be somewhat adjustable so that people can customize them for their own specific comfort and preferences. We are all built differently.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Adel

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

why have such small and highly angled pedals?

The ridiculous size of ALL current production wheels remains a mystery. V10F has the largest ones, but still a lot smaller than what my feet prefer.

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

1. Are the pedals angled in order to...

When experimenting with MSX angles, I did notice that a high angle does make tight turns and rough terrain slightly more effortless. It really does lock your feet in a bit. But as you said, it twists ankles and places an unnatural twist on the table of the foot, which quickly turns into pain on my feet. So even on a personal level it is a compromise.

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Shims would go a long way towards wheel comfort rather than "hack it yourself".

They would! Let’s hope that this will gather enough noise for the manufacturers to eventually take note.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The ridiculous size of ALL current production wheels remains a mystery. V10F has the largest ones, but still a lot smaller than what my feet prefer.

When experimenting with MSX angles, I did notice that a high angle does make tight turns and rough terrain slightly more effortless. It really does lock your feet in a bit. But as you said, it twists ankles and places an unnatural twist on the table of the foot, which quickly turns into pain on my feet. So even on a personal level it is a compromise.

They would! Let’s hope that this will gather enough noise for the manufacturers to eventually take note.

This just occurred to me. What if longer pedals (for you apes out there ) would make it too easy for us to over-power the wheels because of the additional leverage? Maybe the manufacturers know this and that's why they are all about the same length?

I know it's a pain, but for you guys that can't stand the supposedly small pedals, you can mechanically attach bigger pads onto the existing pedals. I've seen lots of people do it.

I agree that having adjustable pedal angles would be a great feature.

[UniVehje]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

What if longer pedals (for you apes out there ) would make it too easy for us to over-power the wheels because of the additional leverage? Maybe the manufacturers know this and that's why they are all about the same length?

I have actually theorised that this could contribute to the overload issue of the V10F with the large pedals. My friend @Peter Köhler has a nice modded large pedals (pictured) on his 16S and he said they made going uphill much much faster. I saw him just fly up. This must be more demanding for the motor as well and possibly a slight risk these companies don't want to take. 

 

[US69]

2 hours ago, Adel said:

So I think EUC manufactures should publish the pedal angles as part of EUC spec sheet. Better yet, they should manufacture them so that they can be somewhat adjustable so that people can customize them for their own specific comfort and preferences. We are all built differently.

I am hundert percent with you! Adjustable would be perfect!!!

[US69]

38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This just occurred to me. What if longer pedals (for you apes out there ) would make it too easy for us to over-power the wheels because of the additional leverage? Maybe the manufacturers know this and that's why they are all about the same length?

You dont mean this serious, or? ? Even without any pedal mods i can „force“ any wheel to go faster by standing much in front of the pedals...or by mods like this from Mathias, where you can clamp your wheel more easily....

I never go to think that THIS is the reason for the actually pedal size....

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, US69 said:

You dont mean this serious, or? ? Even without any pedal mods i can „force“ any wheel to go faster by standing much in front of the pedals...or by mods like this from Mathias, where you can clamp your wheel more easily....

I never go to think that THIS is the reason for the actually pedal size....

I am serious.