Who else is waiting for the new 16 inch models?

[eddiemoy]

On 7/22/2018 at 7:41 PM, wheelr said:

2000W Motor

25+ mph (40km)

Better weight balance (not top heavy)

Thicker tire

Slim design (V8 form factor not taller)

~25miles range (40km)

That is the V10F except it is taller than the V8.

[Electroman]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

My entirely speculative predictions to the end of the year. 

• V10F: Inmotion will either raise the temperature threshold to allow higher temperatures on heatsink similar to where KS/GW are at 80°C, or redesign the board to allow for greater heat absorption/dissipation. This Wheel still holds so much promise, IMO there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if only IM HQ can focus on details like making a rock-sold firmware, the handle, & start getting the Wheel shipped out in volume. 
• Tesla: without telling anyone, start shipping the Tesla out with a TO-247 board, similar to MCM5/MSX by the end of the summer &  begin planning of a new 16" design with a wider tire & >1600Wh battery pack for early 2019. 
• KS16X: unveil, but not release, a 84v new design, max speed of 40kph, 1200Wh pack, 2.5" wide tire. It will be shipped, by pure coincidence, to come off the factory-line the same day as the new 16" Gotway—this is what happened with the MSX/18L

I know GW might not always be upfront about their plans, just like the 100v wheels?

But in your opinion Jason, do you think we can come to see a 100v 16" wheel or is it just not worth it?

TO-247 seams like a sure thing for all powerful wheels

[wheelr]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

 

• Tesla: without telling anyone, start shipping the Tesla out with a TO-247 board, similar to MCM5/MSX by the end of the summer &  begin planning of a new 16" design with a wider tire & >1600Wh battery pack for early 2019. 
• KS16X: unveil, but not release, a 84v new design, max speed of 40kph, 1200Wh pack, 2.5" wide tire. It will be shipped, by pure coincidence, to come off the factory-line the same day as the new 16" Gotway—this is what happened with the MSX/18L

Tesla becoming a franken wheel? ?

The main thing I like about the Tesla is that it strikes a sensible balance between power and size without the protuberances found in the rest of Gotway's wheels. It's amazing really that such svelte package can pack such a punch. But knowing Gotway, you're probably right, sigh.

[Marcglider]

8 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

My entirely speculative predictions to the end of the year. 

• V10F: Inmotion will either raise the temperature threshold to allow higher temperatures on heatsink similar to where KS/GW are at 80°C, or redesign the board to allow for greater heat absorption/dissipation. This Wheel still holds so much promise, IMO there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if only IM HQ can focus on details like making a rock-sold firmware, the handle, & start getting the Wheel shipped out in volume. 
• Tesla: without telling anyone, start shipping the Tesla out with a TO-247 board, similar to MCM5/MSX by the end of the summer &  begin planning of a new 16" design with a wider tire & >1600Wh battery pack for early 2019. 
• KS16X: unveil, but not release, a 84v new design, max speed of 40kph, 1200Wh pack, 2.5" wide tire. It will be shipped, by pure coincidence, to come off the factory-line the same day as the new 16" Gotway—this is what happened with the MSX/18L

It's posts like this that stir up the "BUYING" juices in me  I have one saving grace though... for what I am going to call unfortunate circumstances (probably a rush to deliver), seems like the new wheels that just came out are having issues of some sort... My accountant will like the fact that I am not willing to jump in on any new wheel till the bugs get worked out... ?

[FreeRide]

The 18” Z10 is the new 16”. 

[alcatraz]

Give me a low weight 16inch with 2.5-3inch tire width and 800-1000Wh that can cruise at 40km/h. Perfect.

With low weight I mean 15kg.

[FreeRide]

On 7/24/2018 at 11:51 AM, wheelr said:

Tesla becoming a franken wheel? ?

The main thing I like about the Tesla is that it strikes a sensible balance between power and size without the protuberances found in the rest of Gotway's wheels. It's amazing really that such svelte package can pack such a punch. But knowing Gotway, you're probably right, sigh.

He said a new 16” design. The Tesla should stay true to it's design, but they could enhance the battery a bit and probably still keep it roughly the same. 

[Electroman]

6 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Give me a low weight 16inch with 2.5-3inch tire width and 800-1000Wh that can cruise at 40km/h. Perfect.

With low weight I mean 15kg.

Commuter dream wheel?

As mush as I like power and batteries that sounds great for commuting if packages is tight enough, I want one. ?

[UniVehje]

14 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Give me a low weight 16inch with 2.5-3inch tire width and 800-1000Wh that can cruise at 40km/h. Perfect.

With low weight I mean 15kg.

1000wh + 15 kg = possibly impossible with today's technology. But might be doable. 

The 2.5-3" tire also adds weight. At the moment there's only one 16x2.5 wheel but hopefully the new KingSong will be 2.5" or maybe even 3". (bigger is not always better, though) 2.5" width on 16" tire seems to be the sweet spot. At least much better than 2.125". Nobody has tried 3" width yet at least publicly. Would be nice to know if any company has done internal testings. 

 

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, UniVehje said:

1000wh + 15 kg = possibly impossible with today's technology. But might be doable. 

 

It's possible, and I think rather easily.

I took apart my KS16s a month ago. The wheel is like 35 pounds and there were plenty of places where a lot of weight could be saved.

The footpads might be made lighter by remove metal from the center as we only really use the very front and the very back of the pad. Maybe.

The big solid chunk of metal holding the pedal to the axle could be replaced by something much smaller, and maybe carbon fiber. I think simply moving the pads way up and attaching them closely to the axle would remove a significant amount of weight from the wheel. The Inmotions have pretty small footpad hangers (?) just for this reason, and I like the super-high footpads anyway.

Use carbon fiber wheel and rim, sticking the magnets inside the wheel, instead of what we have now. Carbon fiber is a mature technology, and, damn, is it strong. CF has a reputation for shattering but that is not true anymore; you can take a sledgehammer to it, and after you bust it up after some difficulty you can then easily repair it with CF patches. It's simply astonishing.

You don't need internal trolleys. I hate this trend towards internal trolleys, a big old swinging trolley on the top works fantastic and is lighter too.

You don't need speakers nor lights.

I would love to see manufacturers come out with a special edition of their wheels, wheels that entirely forgo almost everything that doesn't help you go. Remove everything except the pads, the rim/tire and motor, battery + mobo, and an utterly smooth case. Now that looks like a proper wheel!

[US69]

9 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Give me a low weight 16inch with 2.5-3inch tire width and 800-1000Wh that can cruise at 40km/h. Perfect.

With low weight I mean 15kg.

Nearly impossible....That are 60-80cells...a rim that must be wide enough to care such a big tyre, and enough Copper windings in the Motor to achieve such a Power!

The KS16s with 840wh and 2,125 Inch tire width was About 17,5 or 17,8 kg.....

I cant see how to step up all of These components..even  with loosing weight.

 

The Carbon Fiber ideas above? Okay, then maybe you land on 15kg....but also on 3000Dollar ?

[LanghamP]

15 minutes ago, US69 said:

Nearly impossible....That are 60-80cells...a rim that must be wide enough to care such a big tyre, and enough Copper windings in the Motor to achieve such a Power!

The KS16s with 840wh and 2,125 Inch tire width was About 17,5 or 17,8 kg.....

I cant see how to step up all of These components..even  with loosing weight.

 

The Carbon Fiber ideas above? Okay, then maybe you land on 15kg....but also on 3000Dollar ?

Wait, what am I missing here? I pulled out the battery of my 840wh KS16s; it felt pretty light. Not sure if there are two...

It felt like most of the weight was in the rim/wheel, and also a lot in those two square thingies hanging from the axle.

I recall hefting the battery in one hand while hefting the rest of the wheel in the other, and thinking that the battery was surprisingly light. It was maybe 1/6 or less of the wheel; it was really light, surprisingly so.

On the other hand, the wheel/motor with just the bare wheel/motor felt so damned heavy.

Let's think about this; the KS16s weighs 38 pounds and we want to get down to 33 pounds. That's just five pounds!

840 wh to 1000 wh -- I don't know how much that would require minimum.

The footpads and those blocky things. 1.5 pounds from each of those, easy. That's 3 pounds right there.

No lights, speakers (who cares about beeps, we don't listen to them anyway), or trolley handle. That's 2 pounds right there, at least.

Carbon fiber or magnesium rim. That might help with a few pounds, sure it might be slightly more expensive, but carbon fiber isn't the incredibly expensive stuff it used to be.

I think we even have a sub 30 pound wheel right there.

I think. Someone who actually knows engineering and these wheels, help me out. 

[meepmeepmayer]

1020/1036Wh like the Tesla/18L weigh just about 4kg (80 cells, somewhere between 45g and 48g each, plus a little bit for the BMS).

So there's 11kg left for the rest in a 15kg wheel. The damn motors are so heavy, not sure if they have to be like that. I assume if you don't use enough copper for the windings, they would get too hot?

[US69]

18 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

et's think about this; the KS16s weighs 38 pounds and we want to get down to 33 pounds. That's just five pounds!

840 wh to 1000 wh -- I don't know how much that would require minimum.

The footpads and those blocky things. 1.5 pounds from each of those, easy. That's 3 pounds right there.

No lights, speakers (who cares about beeps, we don't listen to them anyway), or trolley handle. That's 2 pounds right there, at least.

Carbon fiber or magnesium rim. That might help with a few pounds, sure it might be slightly more expensive, but carbon fiber isn't the incredibly expensive stuff it used to be.

I think we even have a sub 30 pound wheel right there.

I think. Someone who actually knows engineering and these wheels, help me out. 

Ya….

i just said, i dont think it is that easy....first of all, yes your 840wh has 2 batterys, each side one...it are 64 cells...

You Need About 80 for 1000wh....also a thicker, wider rim is wanted here…..as the Question goes for 2,5-3inch tire...

And most important: A more powerfull Motor....who can run 40kmh easy....that just Needs copperwindings and a strong/stable Motor!

 

look at what the v10f is weighting...it is 21kg....and has that what is wanted: 2,5 Inch tire, 40 kmh 1000wh.....

Yeah you can make it naked, too…..and perhaps bring it down 3-4 kg....

 

But  just another Thing:

Who wants that???

I  dont want to lift 15kg around...never ever!!!

I Always would like to trolley it.....and then it is no matter for me if it is naked 15kg or with nice Speakers and so on 20kg....

Thats my opininon on weight ?

 

[US69]

3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I assume if you don't use enough copper for the windings, they would get too hot?

i would assume they also where not powerfull enough, the Magnets also takes some weight….and so on and so on...and also it Needs some stability to carry a 100kg on its axle and rim, or?

Especially at a Speed of 40kmh....

[meepmeepmayer]

Forgot about the magnets (though that can't be too much, a strip of metal <1m length and maybe 4-5cm wide and 0.5cm tall?).

The aluminium rim+tire shouldn't be too heavy, think of a bicycle's tire.

It's really the stupid motor copper. And they could use aluminium instead of heavier steel for the rest of the motor construction, pretty sure that's a big part of the weight. The steel doesn't have an electrical purpose, right?

Pretty sure shaving 5kg off current motors would be doable. No idea how that would change the price though.

Less copper for the windings would just be like using a thinner "cable", I'd guess?? Thinner=hotter, just like the motor cables Maybe some special cooling could allow for less copper. As the copper is in the stator and does not spin, it should not change stability.

I'm just guessing

[Electroman]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Wait, what am I missing here? I pulled out the battery of my 840wh KS16s; it felt pretty light. Not sure if there are two...

It felt like most of the weight was in the rim/wheel, and also a lot in those two square thingies hanging from the axle.

I recall hefting the battery in one hand while hefting the rest of the wheel in the other, and thinking that the battery was surprisingly light. It was maybe 1/6 or less of the wheel; it was really light, surprisingly so.

On the other hand, the wheel/motor with just the bare wheel/motor felt so damned heavy.

Let's think about this; the KS16s weighs 38 pounds and we want to get down to 33 pounds. That's just five pounds!

840 wh to 1000 wh -- I don't know how much that would require minimum.

The footpads and those blocky things. 1.5 pounds from each of those, easy. That's 3 pounds right there.

No lights, speakers (who cares about beeps, we don't listen to them anyway), or trolley handle. That's 2 pounds right there, at least.

Carbon fiber or magnesium rim. That might help with a few pounds, sure it might be slightly more expensive, but carbon fiber isn't the incredibly expensive stuff it used to be.

I think we even have a sub 30 pound wheel right there.

I think. Someone who actually knows engineering and these wheels, help me out. 

Call Christian Koenigsegg, it will surely cost a bit but he and/or the company is known to be very bright minded coming up with ideas and they do currently make carbon fiber rims, I bet it would cost an arm and half a leg though cause quite a few hours go into manufacturing alone..

I came across a pdf some time ago but cannot find to download now, this should be the same one though so been thought about for some time now..

http://docplayer.net/15654559-Development-of-a-composite-wheel-with-integrated-hub-motor.html

Those batteries though, with this tech not much to do at that front I suspect, the foot plates and arms they hang in could of course also be made lighter even but again I think quite counterproductive from an economical point of view.

 

 

[Thai-lad]

Enthusiasts, which include most of the posters here, are mainly interested in performance, range and handling.  But improving the first two of those come at the price of both higher cost and higher weight, as does improved handling when it involves wider tires or larger wheels.  The trend to this can be clearly seen with each new generation of wheels.  As the costs of the wheels increase as well as their size and weight, they become less and less attractive as a "last mile" option for commuters who must lug them up and down stairs and then protect them from those who would happily make off with them if they were unattended while the owners are shopping, dining or working.  And as they get more expensive, fewer and fewer newcomers will be tempted to learn to ride them..  So the manufacturers seem to be chasing a smaller and smaller segment of the market simply because the enthusiasts are the ones posting videos on YouTube,  thereby generating the publicity they need to drive product sales,  But to really bring down costs, the manufacturers need to broaden their appeal and bring in more new riders.

 

I personally would love to see more products like the MTen3 or i5, products which bring the latest tech to a smaller form factor.  Add in a quality rapid charger in place of the cheap laptop brick so I can quickly top up the smaller battery packs, and include a USB port so I can keep my phone charged while using GPS to navigate.  I don't need a disco light show nor do I plan to blast out music while commuting. But I would like them to  Include a quality app that connects to the smart watches and phones which are sold today, and is free of poor quality Chinglish.  I'd like to see more products like this to replace the cheap but outdated tech of the first couple generations of wheels with their poor performance and, in many cases, poor safety record while staying within the 500 to 600 USD price range and ~20 pounds of weight or less.  They might not get the juices flowing of the many experienced riders here, but I think it would be good for the industry as a whole to concentrate more effort on offering quality entry level/commuter friendly wheels.

 

Maybe it's time for a KS12D?  There are already plenty of great options for 16" wheels, as well as 14" and 18" .  That field is pretty crowded now.  Anyone else feel the same?

[Electroman]

3 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

Enthusiasts, which include most of the posters here, are mainly interested in performance, handling, and range.  But improving the last two of those come at the price of both higher cost and higher weight, as does improved handling when it involves wider tires.  The trend to this can be clearly seen with each new generation of wheels.  As the costs of the wheels increase as well as their size and weight, they become less and less attractive as a "last mile" option for commuters who must lug them up and down stairs and then protect them from those who would happily make off with them if they were unattended while the owners are shopping, dining or working.  And as they get more expensive, fewer and fewer newcomers will be tempted to learn to ride them..  So the manufacturers seem to be chasing a smaller and smaller segment of the market simply because the enthusiasts are the ones posting videos on YouTube,  thereby generating the publicity they need to drive product sales,  But to really bring down costs, the manufacturers need to broaden their appeal and bring in more new riders.

 

I personally would love to see more products like the MTen3 or i5, products which bring the latest tech to a smaller form factor.  Add in a quality rapid charger in place of the cheap laptop brick so I can quickly top up the smaller battery packs, and include a USB port so I can keep my phone charged while using GPS to navigate.  I don't need a disco light show nor do I plan to blast out music while commuting. But I would like them to  Include a quality app that connects to the smart watches and phones which are sold today, and is free of poor quality Chinglish.  I'd like to see more products like this to replace the cheap but outdated tech of the first couple generations of wheels with their poor performance and, in many cases, poor safety record while staying within the 500 to 600 USD price range and ~20 pounds of weight or less.  They might not get the juices flowing of the many experienced riders here, but I think it would be good for the industry as a whole to concentrate more effort on offering quality entry level/commuter friendly wheels.

 

Maybe it's time for a KS12D?  There are already plenty of great options for 16" wheels, as well as 14" and 18" .  That field is pretty crowded now.  Anyone else feel the same?

To me all good points, but I cannot help but to wonder, is there really no room for more than just a single philosophy at the house of GW, KS, RW, Inmotion, Ninebot, IPS and so on?

Every now and then I get a funny idea about having all my needs in one wheel, such comfort, economical and easy living a few stories up in one of these apartments build in the 60's without elevator, but then I drop it again and round and round this patter goes in what seams like a never ending loop and insanity and punishing self for no good reason.

For me personally I think 5 or even 10" could be lots of fun, just not for the type of commuting I do but we all different for sure with different needs and ideas, to me the flat IPS wheels look much more appealing and can lean under my calves behind the knees those times I manage to get a seat on the bus, train where space can be so limited I think I am temporally in India. Sweden have got a serious, serious commuting problem in Stockholm atm with something called the Vespidae-waist (word for word from Swedish) and a lot more new people living here from not just middle east but Asia including lots of Chinese, Vietnamese etc, multiple north and central African countries on top of all the middle eastern  and the traffic is just braking down totally which means chaos so perhaps my next commuter wheel will be the MSX after all and I just screw buses and trains all together? ?

[Thai-lad]

On 7/28/2018 at 2:53 PM, Electroman said:

To me all good points, but I cannot help but to wonder, is there really no room for more than just a single philosophy at the house of GW, KS, RW, Inmotion, Ninebot, IPS and so on?

Every now and then I get a funny idea about having all my needs in one wheel, such comfort, economical and easy living a few stories up in one of these apartments build in the 60's without elevator, but then I drop it again and round and round this patter goes in what seams like a never ending loop and insanity and punishing self for no good reason.

For me personally I think 5 or even 10" could be lots of fun, just not for the type of commuting I do but we all different for sure with different needs and ideas, to me the flat IPS wheels look much more appealing and can lean under my calves behind the knees those times I manage to get a seat on the bus, train where space can be so limited I think I am temporally in India. Sweden have got a serious, serious commuting problem in Stockholm atm with something called the Vespidae-waist (word for word from Swedish) and a lot more new people living here from not just middle east but Asia including lots of Chinese, Vietnamese etc, multiple north and central African countries on top of all the middle eastern  and the traffic is just braking down totally which means chaos so perhaps my next commuter wheel will be the MSX after all and I just screw buses and trains all together? ?

If you don't need to climb stairs with your wheel, then size and weight are obviously less relevant to you (though frostbite might be  if you're wheeling in a Stockholm winter).  Clearly, the limits of the one wheel motor tech have not yet been reached.  For example, just have a look at what this DARPA project is doing.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/21/darpa-electric-vehicle-military-applications-inhub-motor/

The relevant part is this:

“Putting motors directly inside the wheels offers numerous potential benefits for combat vehicles, such as heightened acceleration and maneuverability with optimal torque, traction, power, and speed over rough or smooth terrain. In an earlier demonstration, QinetiQ demonstrated a unique approach, incorporating three gear stages and a complex thermal management design into a system small enough to fit a standard military 20-inch rim.”

They are talking about in-hub 100 kW electric motors with 3 gear stages in a thermal management system all in one wheel .  

 

Just wait till Gotway develops a similar tech...

 

[RayRay]

3 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

They are talking about in-hub 100 kW electric motors with 3 gear stages in a thermal management system all in one wheel .

(DARPA 'Extreme' Hub Motor)

(Regular e-bike motor)

I've seen 3kW golf cart motors that are half the size of the motors we use in euc's. Also, 20+ kW motors for auto applications aren't much bigger (and some use liquid cooling). It would seem that motor output can vary widely based on application, so we just need to keep refining the technology that's already available. (Gotway will get us there...)

That being said, I think real progress is being made in small, light motors used in PEV's. I have a bike wheel on order with an integrated hub motor so small you can barely tell it's there. (Made for stealth, not hills.)  Sooner or later, ebikes and euc's will probably incorporate more liquid cooling as we try put push our ever fatter butts up ever steeper hills. ?

 

[Lutalo]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:40 AM, LanghamP said:

You don't need internal trolleys. I hate this trend towards internal trolleys, a big old swinging trolley on the top works fantastic and is lighter too

I prefer wheels with an internal trolley design. Like many others who live in large metropolitan areas around the world, I use a mixture of public transportation and riding on my wheel outings. This helps me to mind range limitations of my current KS18 (1200w, 630wh), and quickly access the parts of my city which I enjoy exploring on my wheel. Internal trolleys are immensely convenient and rather sturdy compared to the trolley designs with a flimsy latch attachment atop the wheel. 

For me, the internal trolley handle is an attribute that served as a major draw in purchasing the 18L. Trolley design is also a main reason that I only briefly considered a V10F (aside from the fact that I prefer 18" wheels to 16" wheels). 

It takes all kinds, and there is something for everyone.

[Lutalo]

On 7/29/2018 at 3:31 PM, RayRay said:

Gotway will get us there

Lord help us all ?

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

I prefer wheels with an internal trolley design. Like many others who live in large metropolitan areas around the world, I use a mixture of public transportation and riding on my wheel outings. This helps me to mind range limitations of my current KS18 (1200w, 630wh), and quickly access the parts of my city which I enjoy exploring on my wheel. Internal trolleys are immensely convenient and rather sturdy compared to the trolley designs with a flimsy latch attachment atop the wheel.

I don't have an 18L. I do have the KS16s which evidently uses a similar but better trolley than the 18L, if complaints on the 18L about its stuck trolley are to be believed.

I also have the Inmotion V5 with its external trolley.

So let's enumerate those two wheels' trolley.

Arguments for the internal trolley:

--The internal trolley is marginally smaller; however I do know some extra space had to be devoted to the trolley in the wheel.

--The internal trolley can be pulled out while riding so this is a plus since you do not have to stop when you get off the wheel.

--The internal trolley just plain looks better.

Arguments against:

--Delicate sliding mechanism that needs to be aligned and lubricated.

--Delicate mechanism on the lock/unlock button.

--Requires taking the wheel apart when replacing when damaged.

--Easily bent, especially if you accidently drop the wheel while trolley is deployed.

--Possibly bad things happen when lifting the wheel by the extended trolley. Not sure if this actually damages the trolley.

Arguments for the external trolley:

--Fantastic protection for the wheel when crashing.

--Very easily replaceable.

--Easily the most sturdy. By far. There's no comparison; if you see the Inmotion trolley in person, you'll instantly realize how durable these are. There is a bit of give which makes it look sloppy, but there is no question the knee joint is far more durable than sliding joints in the KingSongs.

--You can use the trolley/wheel combo to help you get up hills by leaning onto the wheel.

Arguments against the external trolley:

--Looks kinda bad. I much prefer the perfectly round or egg shape, and the trolley messes with that.

--Gets terribly dirty as the wheel kicks up dirt.

 

[Lutalo]

25 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I don't have an 18L. I do have the KS16s which evidently uses a similar but better trolley than the 18L, if complaints on the 18L about its stuck trolley are to be believed.

I also have the Inmotion V5 with its external trolley.

So let's enumerate those two wheels' trolley.

Arguments for the internal trolley:

--The internal trolley is marginally smaller; however I do know some extra space had to be devoted to the trolley in the wheel.

--The internal trolley can be pulled out while riding so this is a plus since you do not have to stop when you get off the wheel.

--The internal trolley just plain looks better.

Arguments against:

--Delicate sliding mechanism that needs to be aligned and lubricated.

--Delicate mechanism on the lock/unlock button.

--Requires taking the wheel apart when replacing when damaged.

--Easily bent, especially if you accidently drop the wheel while trolley is deployed.

--Possibly bad things happen when lifting the wheel by the extended trolley. Not sure if this actually damages the trolley.

Arguments for the external trolley:

--Fantastic protection for the wheel when crashing.

--Very easily replaceable.

--Easily the most sturdy. By far. There's no comparison; if you see the Inmotion trolley in person, you'll instantly realize how durable these are. There is a bit of give which makes it look sloppy, but there is no question the knee joint is far more durable than sliding joints in the KingSongs.

--You can use the trolley/wheel combo to help you get up hills by leaning onto the wheel.

Arguments against the external trolley:

--Looks kinda bad. I much prefer the perfectly round or egg shape, and the trolley messes with that.

--Gets terribly dirty as the wheel kicks up dirt.

 

I hear you, although the internal trolley system is; for many of the reasons which you have profiled my personal preference, it's about what each buyer desires. In the end I am glad that there are a wide variety of choices to answer those desires; its quite literally a candy store for those who ride. 

1. Haven't heard of anyone damaging a handle while trolleying a KS18L. I damaged and replaced a trolley handle on my current KS18AY because I dropped it several times while learning to ride countermarch, but never from trolleying.

2. Although the 18L requires popping off the outer she'll, it is far from a difficult job. Both handles (Inmotion and 18L) are easily replaceable. 

3. I Can't speak to whether the Inmotion handle is more sturdy, but I seriously doubt it is as stable a handle that is connected at two points as opposed to just one.

Also, KS has reinforced the trolleys on the current 18L's with smoother operating slide lock mechanisms. These will appear on later batches, and resellers are retrofitting units that have problems with the earlier handles with the improved iteration; so the handle issue you mentioned has been addressed and will certainly make the 18L handle far less annoying to use.