My Z10 Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, novazeus said:

yes, i was very impressed with the workmanship displayed in the teardown videos.

ur right about he headlight, it’s really a non issue for me. i’d never be riding n the ranch at night on a wheel. i’ve got the V10F for that if i need to dash down my road, it does that superbly. it was terrifying enough on my ktm 525exc and i had hid’s mounted on my helmet. hell i drove into mini sinkhole in my jeep at dusk the other night and Bob and i had to walk almost a mile back to the house. kinda funny seeing the right rear tire of the jeep up in the air.

did anybody weigh it without the mudflap and trolley handle?

I weighed it (see above somewhere). About 53-pounds. Considering that the trolley handle is made from 1-mil sheet metal and the mudguard (which is very nice) is plastic, they don't contribute much to the weight.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Turbocharged said:

I think V10F is a better wheel all around especially in a city, but Z is a lot more fun.

V10F with a good firmware (hopefully the 2.2.7 will do) should be able to make Z feel like a toy on a continuous incline. With current setup Z couldn’t keep up with Tesla/V10F/GT16, but these are 16 inches wheels which tend to have better torque/acceleration. That’s only my experience though.

I said the Z10 makes the V10F seem more like a toy. Certainly not implying that any of the current crop of wheels are toys. And what I'm really talking about is build quality and overall look and feel. I think the Z10 is more industrial strength in every way.

Yes, you can't beat the 16-inch form factor for more fun around town.

[Marty Backe]

15 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Not only that, but the headlight is actually safe enough to go riding at night and have oncoming cars flash their lights at you to turn them down a bit.

The V10 has a properly stiff member/handle instead of the ED Segway trolley handle. If the V10 can be called a Toy, then I am pretty confident in the Z10 being like riding a Mule. It can handle any terrain, but on its terms more than yours.

Again, sorry I used the word toy. It's meant in relative terms. There is no doubt in my mind that the Z10 is more industrial in quality look and feel to the other wheels out there.

Once I fixed the tire pressure, this wheel is behaving a lot better that what we experienced at Griffith Park. But yes, the V10F is certainly a zippier wheel.

[Turbocharged]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I said the Z10 makes the V10F seem more like a toy. Certainly not implying that any of the current crop of wheels are toys. And what I'm really talking about is build quality and overall look and feel. I think the Z10 is more industrial strength in every way.

Yes, you can't beat the 16-inch form factor for more fun around town.

I understand, I realize when we say "Toy" we meant different things. By "toy" I don't mean bad quality bad design or anything negative like that, it's just something designed for the fun of it, as opposite to a "tool".

Let me try to explain my view on these 2 wheels the best I can, hopefully I can express myselft without too much confusion. 

To me, Z is more like a toy, something for fun, but not exactly practical. On the other hand, V10F is a great tool, a mean for tranportation. Z is fun to ride, no doubt about that, but it can be awkward if I need to take it on a bus or a subway train. It's very heavy and wide. The exposed tire looks great, but it's embarrassing if mud one the tire get on somebody else's pants, or someone hit his ankle on the metal stand on the end of the trolley handle... and that poor trolley handle... V10F has a good headlamp, a nice trolley handle, a smoother ride, it is much more practical than the Z, especially in the city environment where I live in.

But, I have to say after a few days with the V10F, I realize that what I really wanted from InMotion wasn't a V10F, but a V8 Mark II. I hope my V8 has a smoother ride, more comfortable pedals, better headlamp, maybe a bit more speed and range, but more importantly, I wanted the agility, great accelerations, light weight and convenience of V8 to stay unchanged.

 

[Stan Onymous]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Again, sorry I used the word toy. It's meant in relative terms. There is no doubt in my mind that the Z10 is more industrial in quality look and feel to the other wheels out there.

Once I fixed the tire pressure, this wheel is behaving a lot better that what we experienced at Griffith Park. But yes, the V10F is certainly a zippier wheel.

Marty is unfortunately correct until InMotion fixes the Overload problems for heavier riders. It does undermine its better more stable qualities, and toy, although derogatory, is the nagging thought in the back of my mind when I worry about the Overload.

I found the Z10 to be incredibly zippy in acceleration and I really couldnt notice that it was an 18” wheel. The fat tire gives it an optical illusion in size. I believe it is the same height as the V10 if not a touch shorter, so it has a nice feel underneath you.

 

[Lukasz]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

at $1600, i was in whatever, i know it’s only $200 more, but that would make it my most expensive wheel to date.

For 200$ You can get very good light for your helmet (as in general lamp on the wheel is not really enough to ride during the night) and plenty of skateboard grip for the pedals.. 

 

[Stan Onymous]

3 minutes ago, Turbocharged said:

But, I have to say after a few days with the V10F, I realize that what I really wanted from InMotion wasn't a V10F, but a V8 Mark II. I hope my V8 has a smoother ride, more comfortable pedals, better headlamp, maybe a bit more speed and range, but more importantly, I wanted the agility, great accelerations, light weight and convenience of V8 to stay unchanged

Stay on the Z10 here. This is a much better conversation thread for the V10F V8 fast, and I would like to add to this, but not on the Z10 section.

The only real comparison is that both Segway and InMotion are competing for the safest EUC standard vehicle for riders. I forsee lots of reworking for both vehicles as they hone their new vehicles.

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Marty is unfortunately correct until InMotion fixes the Overload problems for heavier riders. It does undermine its better more stable qualities, and toy, although derogatory, is the nagging thought in the back of my mind when I worry about the Overload.

I found the Z10 to be incredibly zippy in acceleration and I really couldnt notice that it was an 18” wheel. The fat tire gives it an optical illusion in size. I believe it is the same height as the V10 if not a touch shorter, so it has a nice feel underneath you.

 

There is something strange about the Z10. It has this huge tire in absolute terms, but the overall wheel (except for weight) feels closer to a 16-inch wheel. Optical illusion for sure.

[Lukasz]

19 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

The fat tire gives it an optical illusion in size. I believe it is the same height as the V10 if not a touch shorter, so it has a nice feel underneath you.

It is very much "optical illusion"   -  I have tested V10F a week ago...  due to the very high center of gravity (due to the batteries being placed above the wheel) when turned of  it has the tendency to fall to front or back immediately.  Also it is much taller than Z10.   If Z10 measurements are given correctly - Z10 is almost exactly the size of Kingsong KS16S (16" wheel) in with and length, and is about half an inch higher which make it very compact wheel for 18" even with wide tire, due to the fact that batteries are inside the wheel.  Also in my personal opinion I do not like the shape/form of the V10F handle... 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Lukasz

[Lukasz]

Have a look on the height.. .V10F is very high! 

 

[Marty Backe]

The First Mountain Stress Test

A long video, but I have a couple of time markers early in the video if you just want to skip to where it crashes and burns 

I provide some of my observations in the video, but the biggest take away is the lack of low-speed torque. Under all but the most severe conditions the lack of torque is not noticeable. But when you throw in steep inclines it comes to the forefront.

This is still an amazingly powerful wheel. As I say in the video, the Z10 makes me less impressed with the high voltage wheels, particularly what Gotway is doing. I'm not a power and/or motor engineer, but I think the Ninebot engineers are aptly demonstrating with the Z10 that with good engineering you can make a powerful wheel with relatively low voltages. Perhaps with Gotway, chasing the higher voltages is a cheap way to get the power if you don't have the engineering talent 

BTW, Jason (EWheels) gave me explicit permission to try and over-stress the Z10. I wouldn't do this to your wheel if you loaned me one, promise 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Marty Backe

[thefork]

13 hours ago, Esper said:

Can I suggest that the next time you title a post have it called. Triumphs, Tribulations, and Tragedies. The three T's just make it sound better in my head.

Totally agree, alliterations are awesome and absolutely amazing! Anyway... nice write-up, @Marty Backe, keep it coming!

[novazeus]

yes, that was another good video.

was that a cutoff u were able to run off at the end of the video? 

if it was, i’d rather see the wheel tilt me back and force me off before a cutoff.

some places on that trail, which i think i’d prefer smooth asphalt for falling on than that rocky trail, the shoulders of the trail, offraod or trail, look more like my pastures but fortunately no rocks. think u could ride that wheel in that stuff?

i’m concerned about the momentum factor. with enough momentum i could probably ride any wheel in my pastures, if u could hang on, or in reality, ur feet land back on the pedals, cause u will be flying. i could tell even the 18s was struggling in the pastures at slow speed without momentum. i’ve yet to try the V10F out there with it’s smaller diameter yet 2.5 “ width tire with supposedly more power.

i don’t want to be trying to grunt out of a hole and have it cut out on me.

Edited July 16, 2018 by novazeus

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, novazeus said:

yes, that was another good video.

was that a cutoff u were able to run off at the end of the video? 

if it was, i’d rather see the wheel tilt me back and force me off before a cutoff.

some places on that trail, which i think i’d prefer smooth asphalt for falling on than that rocky trail, the shoulders of the trail, offraod or trail, look more like my pastures but fortunately no rocks. think u could ride that wheel in that stuff?

i’m concerned about the momentum factor. with enough momentum i could probably ride any wheel in my pastures, if u could hang on, or in reality, ur feet land back on the pedals, cause u will be flying. i could tell even the 18s was struggling in the pastures at slow speed without momentum. i’ve yet to try the V10F out there with it’s smaller diameter yet 2.5 “ width tire with supposedly more power.

i don’t want to be trying to grunt out of a hole and have it cut out on me.

Maybe you missed the fact that this was an extremely steep hill? It's impossible for a wheel to tilt-back while moving at an extreme angle like this. I'm sure it tried, and then cutout. You saw that I didn't fall, because I was moving at a slow walking speed.

On the first overheat it did tilt-back, because the hill was much less steep.

You have such unique conditions I'm afraid you're never going to get satisfactory answers, at least from me. Sorry, I don't know of pastures near me and would have no idea whether 'my' pasture would be like yours. This is a pastime for me, yet you're asking more business type questions - these wheels aren't designed for industrial applications.

When you talk about grunting out of a hole, maybe you should pass on the Z10. For one thing the pedal height will be an issue for you. This is not an ideal wheel for single-track riding either. Frankly your V10F is best because of the super high pedals. And you won't like this either, but the MSuper X also has super high pedals and with a massive wheel. But I know that Gotway is a no-go zone for you.

[US69]

@Marty Backe

I am a little bit confused...

One one side you praised 9b for making such a powerful wheel with that “low” voltage, and call the high voltage wheel „perhaps” bad or cheap engeneering.....

on the other hand this wheel is CLEARLY missing low speed torque...it cut out...or extreme tilted back twice on you....and you were not able to start again on that hill and had to move down again, or on the other way walked it up.

Also it seams that going down that steep hills with the wheel felt very frightening as it seams barely being able to keep you upright?

and...this wasnt even “overheat hill” part as you mentioned,.....

so again that makes me confused...on the other hand that wheel was clearly not strong like other 18inch wheels......while on the other hand you called it powerfull for that „low voltage“....

My impression from this video is,while it is a fun wheel to ride...it is clearly missing the power some higher voltage wheels have???

It missed hills where other wheels made it trough like nothing...on the second cutout passage it seams like nearly giving totaly up, so slow it got, on the downhills on such hills you were afraid of loosing balance.....

Dont get me wrong...but for me this doesnt go together at all! Seams for me there is  clearly a lacking of power.....especially when driving slow up or down a hill.....

But perhaps i understood that all wrong? i wouldnt call the behaviour of the z10 „bad“....but also would call it way behind Tesla, Ks18s, msuper x or what not other actual wheels....and that wide tire doesnt seam to help with those disadvantages???

Edited July 16, 2018 by US69

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Maybe you missed the fact that this was an extremely steep hill? It's impossible for a wheel to tilt-back while moving at an extreme angle like this. I'm sure it tried, and then cutout. You saw that I didn't fall, because I was moving at a slow walking speed.

On the first overheat it did tilt-back, because the hill was much less steep.

You have such unique conditions I'm afraid you're never going to get satisfactory answers, at least from me. Sorry, I don't know of pastures near me and would have no idea whether 'my' pasture would be like yours. This is a pastime for me, yet you're asking more business type questions - these wheels aren't designed for industrial applications.

When you talk about grunting out of a hole, maybe you should pass on the Z10. For one thing the pedal height will be an issue for you. This is not an ideal wheel for single-track riding either. Frankly your V10F is best because of the super high pedals. And you won't like this either, but the MSuper X also has super high pedals and with a massive wheel. But I know that Gotway is a no-go zone for you.

pastures aren’t unique, maybe to u city boy.u could attempt to ride on the roads row. i’m sure that’s fairly bumpy.

i noticed the hill was steep. did the wheel warn u with a beep?

yeah, nobody really rides these things off road. off pavement on trails, yes. 

pastures are bumpy. not like a yard,soccer field, golf course. we’re talking dirt pot holes and cow turds with barky weeds sprinkled in. very technical riding at slow speed. i did that one video of me doing it on the 18s a long time ago and i was amazed i didn’t tumble. subsequent rides i did. still kinda nursing a sore thumb from it. 

if the slow speed torque is less than the V10F or 18s, i’m out. i love the looks, i love it has the first rated tire for rider’s weight and the build quality but i only have two surfaces to ride on. pavement and pasture. pasture being the objective.

hopefully the 18L will arrive in a couple of weeks and i’ll pad it up and take it up on the hill with my V10F and see who wins. 

too hot to ride for Bob now anyway.

please don’t take this as criticism because it’s not meant that way, i’m sure u made sure nobody was behind u when u attempted that hill and didn’t make it and the wheel tumbled down, but if somebody attempted that same feat with the same results and there was somebody behind them, i bet that Z10 would smart if it hit somebody’s leg.

Edited July 16, 2018 by novazeus

[novazeus]

climbing up mountains is unique. especially in florida.

[Marty Backe]

8 minutes ago, novazeus said:

pastures aren’t unique, maybe to u city boy.u could attempt to ride on the roads row. i’m sure that’s fairly bumpy.

i noticed the hill was steep. did the wheel warn u with a beep?

yeah, nobody really rides these things off road. off pavement on trails, yes. 

pastures are bumpy. not like a yard,soccer field, golf course. we’re talking dirt pot holes and cow turds with barky weeds sprinkled in. very technical riding at slowspeed. i did that one video of me doing it on the 18s a long time ago and i was amazed i didn’t tumble. subsequent rides i did. still kinda nursing a sore thumb from it. 

if the slow speed torque is less than the V10F or 18s, i’m out. i love the looks, i love it has the first rated tire for rider’s weight and the build quality but i only have two surfaces to ride on. pavement and pasture. pasture being the objective.

hopefully the 18L will arrive in a couple of weeks and i’ll pad it up and take it up on the hill with my V10F and see who wins. 

too hot to ride for Bob now anyway.

please don’t take this as criticism because it’s not meant that way, i’m sure u made sure nobody was behind u when u attempted that hill and didn’t make it and the wheel tumbled down, but if somebody attempted that same feat with the same results and there was somebody behind them, i bet that Z10 would smart if it hit somebody’s leg.

Yes, I would not do this with anybody below me. Never have. I'm not totally reckless 

The wheel did not beep. There appears to be a problem with the speaker that occurred while @houseofjob had it.

Well, I'm certainly not here to convince you to buy the wheel. You are very particular. Probably should stick with what you have.

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[Ather]

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

i  much prefer talking about how well these wheels are performing and tough buying decisions as opposed to cutoffs and accidents.

i’d much rather have a wheel make me stop by stepping off as opposed to a faceplant any day, even though i haven’t experienced that, hope i never do, but do have a full face helmet comng that might work in this heat.

Full face helmet as in motorcycle helmet? I would like to order one that I could also use it in winter to protect from cold Minnesota weather. 

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Well, I'm certainly not here to convince you to buy the wheel. You are very particular. Probably should stick with what you have.

one more question, again, please.

do u think u are capable of riding a wheel not on a road, not on a trail, but like the grass part of the highways right of way ? unless they’re manicured better than florida, that sb about as bumpy as my pastures, not quite.

which wheel if any u have ridden would be best at that? we don’t have mountains.

don’t hurt urself.

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, Ather said:

Full face helmet as in motorcycle helmet? I would like to order one that I could also use it in winter to protect from cold Minnesota weather. 

i’ve got a bunch of nice arai full face helmets for cold days, but i’d pass out in floridas heat going so slow on a wheel. 

[Marty Backe]

43 minutes ago, US69 said:

@Marty Backe

I am a little bit confused...

One one side you praised 9b for making such a powerful wheel with that “low” voltage, and call the high voltage wheel „perhaps” bad or cheap engeneering.....

on the other hand this wheel is CLEARLY missing low speed torque...it cut out...or extreme tilted back twice on you....and you were not able to start again on that hill and had to move down again, or on the other way walked it up.

Also it seams that going down that steep hills with the wheel felt very frightening as it seams barely being able to keep you upright?

and...this wasnt even “overheat hill” part as you mentioned,.....

so again that makes me confused...on the other hand that wheel was clearly not strong like other 18inch wheels......while on the other hand you called it powerfull for that „low voltage“....

My impression from this video is,while it is a fun wheel to ride...it is clearly missing the power some higher voltage wheels have???

It missed hills where other wheels made it trough like nothing...on the second cutout passage it seams like nearly giving totaly up, so slow it got, on the downhills on such hills you were afraid of loosing balance.....

Dont get me wrong...but for me this doesnt go together at all! Seams for me there is  clearly a lacking of power.....especially when driving slow up or down a hill.....

But perhaps i understood that all wrong? i wouldnt call the behaviour of the z10 „bad“....but also would call it way behind Tesla, Ks18s, msuper x or what not other actual wheels....and that wide tire doesnt seam to help with those disadvantages???

You and others are focusing way too much on this edge case. I'm telling you, that if you rode this wheel you would not be thinking that it's underpowered.

This hill is very steep. Let me say that again - very steep. Where it rolled away from me, you suggested that "on the other way walked it up". Maybe the MCM5 could have started on that incline, but no other wheel would be able to continue up that hill from a standstill.

In both hills, the wheel almost made it to the top. The ambient temperature was 20-degrees warmer than on the days when I tested those other wheels. In my gut, I think this wheel would have completed the climb on those cooler days. It was that close.

You say, "this wasn't even overheat hill". This hill is much steeper than overheat hill. What makes overheat hill a good test case is that it's very long.

The bottom line is that the Z10 does not have the low-end torque of other wheels in it's class. Yet, except for these two hills, this wheel rides with amazing power. It's built like tank, exudes quality, and is very fun to ride. Looks very cool too. I was cruising at 24-mph and it felt great.

I think these tests are fun to do and provide some insight, but you need to keep some perspective. Certainly if climbing and descending very steep inclines is your main thing, I would advise that you stay away from the Z10. Absolutely.

I'm very happy that I have a down payment made and can't wait to receive the Ninebot box at my front door 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, novazeus said:

one more question, again, please.

do u think u are capable of riding a wheel not on a road, not on a trail, but like the grass part of the highways right of way ? unless they’re manicured better than florida, that sb about as bumpy as my pastures, not quite.

which wheel if any u have ridden would be best at that? we don’t have mountains.

don’t hurt urself.

I still have a lot of riding to do. I do want to ride over bumpy grass fields, but I'm not going to ride where the pedals would be covered by the grass. That's why I said it's not the best single-track wheel. The pedals are too low. I'll continue to post what I do here.