My Z10 Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[novazeus]

Just now, Rehab1 said:

Did your V10F arrive at Inmotion? 

i got mine off a day after u did so i’m assumimg it did. 

what’s the status with urs?

[EUCMania]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The Z10 Climbs 4600-Feet with Significant Finding On The Way Down

Five riders ( @Klin, @csmyers, @Chairman S, @Nick McCutcheon, and @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer") joined me as I took my Z10 for a test ride to the top of Mt Wilson, a 4600-foot climb. The Z10 performed flawlessly on the way up and only overheated once (or it would have if I didn't stop while it was 1-degree away from the max temp of 80-degrees). This is in line with my Gotway wheels where I typically have to stop once to give it a little cool down period. So unlike the V10F, the Z10 is a champ. Oh, the temperatures were in the mid-80's too, so this was a good stress test.

Man, I love this wide tire for rolling over the rock strewn trails. And it loves the sand traps.

The battery usage was right in line with my other wheels. @Chairman S was riding his Tesla (same approximate battery capacity as the Z10) and our battery levels were always very close throughout the ride up. So the Z10 is performing nominally on hills.

Now coming down was fascinating. I learned that the Z10 does not recharge the batteries via regenerative braking! Like Wow! This 4600-foot descent perfectly demonstrates regenerative braking, and all other wheels get a significant recharge (>20%) while descending this mountain. The Z10? Nothing. I was at 28% at the top and it dropped to 24% after the first couple of miles of the descent. These were tough miles so that wasn't a surprise. But for the next ~8-miles my battery level remained locked at 24-percent. Clearly the Z10 is capturing the regenerative energy and was using it to drive the motor, because my trip down the mountain was basically energy free.

But none of the captured energy is fed back to the batteries. This is very surprising. This means, relative to other EUCs, that the Z10 will have a shorter range when riding in the mountains.

I wonder if this is somehow related to the poor very steep downhill braking properties of the Z10?

I'd love to know why Ninebot decided not to regeneratively charge the batteries like every other wheel manufacturer does.

A tester in Taiwan reported that after long downhill travel, Z10 charges on pack up by 20%( if I remember right) and the other pack battery level barely changed. I guess the app just reported the lower one. This points out a possible flaw and reason for poor downhill braking behavior: only one battery pack takes charge when braking. Does the app show charge level for each pack?

Edited September 2, 2018 by EUCMania

[Rehab1]

59 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But for the next ~8-miles my battery level remained locked at 24-percent. Clearly the Z10 is capturing the regenerative energy and was using it to drive the motor, because my trip down the mountain was basically energy free.

 

31 minutes ago, US69 said:

But none of the captured energy is fed back to the batteries. This is very surprising. This means, relative to other EUCs, that the Z10 will have a shorter range when riding in the mountains.

Well I’m confused. If you rode 8 miles and never diminished your battery capacity it certainly appears that regenerative energy was stored somewhere. 

[Rehab1]

13 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i got mine off a day after u did so i’m assumimg it did. 

what’s the status with urs?

I’ll PM you

[Marty Backe]

Just now, Rehab1 said:

 

Well I’m confused. If you rode 8 miles and never diminished your battery capacity it certainly appears that regenerative energy was stored somewhere. 

No it doesn't. The point was that the energy was not "stored" anywhere. The energy was used to drive the wheel. But these wheels generate excess energy when braking downhill. That excess energy on every other wheel is fed into the batteries. This is why all the other riders had 20+ percent more battery capacity at the bottom of the mountain, except for me. I had zero additional battery capacity.

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, EUCMania said:

A tester in Taiwan reported that after long downhill travel, Z10 charges on pack up by 20%( if I remember right) and the other pack battery level barely changed. I guess the app just reported the lower one. This points out a possible flaw and reason for poor downhill braking behavior: only one battery pack takes charge when braking.

THANK YOU!

Amazing. So I just went to check my wheel. I was using WheelLog to give me the battery level, which must only read one battery. I now used the Ninebot app, which gives the battery level per battery. I now see that one battery is at 23-percent and the other battery is at 48-percent. Up until today both batteries have been identical.

Fascinating! So it only dumps the energy into one battery.

Let's hope when I recharge the wheel the batteries even themselves out.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Marty Backe

[EUCMania]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

THANK YOU!

Amazing. So I just went to check my wheel. I was using WheelLog to give me the battery level, which must only read one battery. I now used the Ninebot app, which gives the battery level per battery. I now see that one battery is at 23-percent and the other battery is at 48-percent. Up until today bother batteries have been identical.

Fascinating! So it only dumps the energy into one battery.

Let's hope when I recharge the wheel the batteries even themselves out.

You talked to NB CEO before. You can talk to him now about it. This is a flaw. This is why its brake is not as effective as it should. I guess it is also correctable via FW

[JBoo]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

THANK YOU!

Amazing. So I just went to check my wheel. I was using WheelLog to give me the battery level, which must only read one battery. I now used the Ninebot app, which gives the battery level per battery. I now see that one battery is at 23-percent and the other battery is at 48-percent. Up until today both batteries have been identical.

Fascinating! So it only dumps the energy into one battery.

Let's hope when I recharge the wheel the batteries even themselves out.

I’d love to know the engineering reason for that, as it seems like a deliberate design choice as opposed to oversight, etc.

[Rehab1]

16 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

No it doesn't. The point was that the energy was not "stored" anywhere. The energy was used to drive the wheel. But these wheels generate excess energy when braking downhill. That excess energy on every other wheel is fed into the batteries. This is why all the other riders had 20+ percent more battery capacity at the bottom of the mountain, except for me. I had zero additional battery capacity.

Yes I’m aware of the regenerative characteristics of other wheels but I was not aware there was enough independent regenerative power on the Z to exclusively power the wheel during a descent. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Rehab1

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Rehab1 said:

Yes I’m aware of the regenerative characteristics of other wheels but I was not aware there was enough independent regenerative power on the V10F to exclusively power the wheel during a descent. 

When @maltocs rode his V10F with me, where it was overheating all the time, on the way down he got a 20-percent boost in battery. All wheels generate more power than they can use.

I just posted that it turns on my Z10 was dumping excess power back into the batteries, but only one of the batteries. Now my batteries are imbalanced (23-percent and 48-percent).

[fbhb]

28 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Amazing. So I just went to check my wheel. I was using WheelLog to give me the battery level, which must only read one battery. I now used the Ninebot app, which gives the battery level per battery. I now see that one battery is at 23-percent and the other battery is at 48-percent. Up until today both batteries have been identical.

@Marty Backe It would be good to hear from others that have recently received their Z10's, as to whether this is in common with their findings or peculiar to only your wheel? Especially as mentioned by yourself & others that this could also be related to the lower downhill braking you previously experienced on your wheel. Also, are you able to contact the CEO of Ninebot/Segway directly for clarification of these Two issues? I for one, and I'm sure many would appreciate any updates regarding your recent findings or other Z10 owners take on their own findings. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by fbhb

[US69]

Aeeeh...

Two things:

First: Even when the regeneration energy only goes into one battery...that can not be responsible for the steep downhill braking issue....As i doesnt matter where the energy goes. On very old KS with daisy chained batterys there was the same on big battery wheels. The braking only goes into the first pack from the board, which doesnt matter that much...But again, this can not be held responsible for bad breaking, as its only the energy that is left over that goes back...what is needed by the motor does not come back and is used ...

Second: What would get me much more concerned, is that the batterys now run on different voltages. That should be impossible, when both 14s3p packs are connected in parallel. They would then go and balance themself...otherwise it would even get dangerous, as that is one of the most important things on parallel battery action: They MUST have the same voltage...Even when they are not „real“ parallel like in all modern wheels like GW, KS, IM and they are still daisy chained..even then they would balance themself.

So that all leads to the question: Whats happening there? Perhaps as on the the older 9b‘s, balancing is not happening?

Edited September 2, 2018 by US69

[Rehab1]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

When @maltocs rode his V10F with me, where it was overheating all the time, on the way down he got a 20-percent boost in battery. All wheels generate more power than they can use.

I just posted that it turns on my Z10 was dumping excess power back into the batteries, but only one of the batteries. Now my batteries are imbalanced (23-percent and 48-percent).

Engineering wise this makes zero sense. Wondering if this is a flawed NB proprietary BMS design or firmware issue. Please keep us informed after charging your Z if the batteries balance out again. 

[US69]

35 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Yes I’m aware of the regenerative characteristics of other wheels but I was not aware there was enough independent regenerative power on the Z to exclusively power the wheel during a descent. 

When you actually monitor any EUC like GW, KS, IM on a steep enough hill...you can see that the amps produced are high negative amps.

their is only energy needed for keeping the electric system up....nearly all breaking energy goes back into batterys..the braking happens on the principle of the electtric motor.

Edited September 2, 2018 by US69

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, fbhb said:

@Marty Backe It would be good to hear from others that have recently received their Z10's, as to whether this is in common with their findings or peculiar to only your wheel? Especially as mentioned by yourself & others that this could also be related to the lower downhill braking you previously experienced on your wheel. Also, are you able to contact the CEO of Ninebot/Segway directly for clarification of these Two issues? I for one, and I'm sure many would appreciate any updates regarding your recent findings or other Z10 owners take on their own findings. 

I have no direct connection to Ninebot. I posted in the Ninebot Facebook post. Maybe someone will see it?

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, US69 said:

When you actually monitor any EUC like GW, KS, IM on a steep enough hill...you can see that the amps produced are high negative amps.

their is only energy needed for keeping the electric system up....nearly all breaking energy goes back into batterys..the braking happens on the principle of the electtric motor.

I'm recharging now, hopefully they will balance out.

I will say that the preproduction Z10 that I rode for 350-miles had imbalanced batteries. When fully charged they were both at 100-percent. When near empty, one would have 7-percent and the other 15-percent.

They could have voltage balancing circuitry on the control board.

[Marty Backe]

The Z10, conquering some rocky-ass trail conditions 

 

[Ziiten]

What wheel was that following you, seemed to be doing alright on those rocks as well.

[mrelwood]

15 minutes ago, Ziiten said:

What wheel was that following you, seemed to be doing alright on those rocks as well.

It’s the Msuper X. Looks almost like the MSX rider is just chilling while Marty is all out of breath and working his way through the tough spots!  Must be a visual perspective thing though...

Edited September 2, 2018 by mrelwood

[RockyTop]

 

33 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It’s the Msuper X. Looks almost like the MSX rider is just chilling while Marty is all out of breath and working his way through the tough spots!  Must be a visual perspective thing though...

As I am watching I am waiting to hear the song “ Like a Boss!” To play and the thug life glasses to show up on the guy in backs face. 

To be fare Marty is doing twice the work after all, Riding and recording.  And I have heard that the camera adds 10 pounds.  The poor guy only weighs 170 pounds so an extra 10 pounds makes a big difference. ?

 

[palachzzz]

7 hours ago, US69 said:

What would get me much more concerned, is that the batterys now run on different voltages. That should be impossible, when both 14s3p packs are connected in parallel.They would then go and balance themself...otherwise it would even get dangerous, as that is one of the most important things on parallel battery action: They MUST have the same voltage...Even when they are not „real“ parallel like in all modern wheels like GW, KS, IM and they are still daisy chained..even then they would balance themself.

It isn't true for Z. 
There are one two-channel BMS, but two separate batteries, two power- wire harness, and two set of FETs (for each battery), they are not connected between themselves. So batteries may be connected only when two pair of FETs are opened simultaneously for feeding the motor, but also it may be possible that board don't open two pairs of FETs (from batteries) simultaneously. I don't know how it can be checked.
@Marty Backe, ninebot Z protocol very different from others. In other wheel battery percent calculates from voltage in App. But Z transmitted also battery percent by himself. It transmitts percent for each battery and separate general battery percent for both batteries, I don't know how it calculated, but I use "general battery percent" for WheelLog, because WL has only one battery meter. 
I suggest to supervise regeneration in Ninebot app in "Battery menu", there are voltage, battery percent, and also remaining capacity in mAh. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by palachzzz

[US69]

2 hours ago, palachzzz said:

It isn't true for Z. 
There are one two-channel BMS, but two separate batteries, two power- wire harness, and two set of FETs (for each battery), they are not connected between themselves. So batteries may be connected only when two pair of FETs are opened simultaneously for feeding the motor, but also it may be possible that board don't open two pairs of FETs (from batteries) simultaneously. I don't know how it can be 

interesting....especially when thinking about recharging while in Constant current status(0-95%),  as the charger gives out only one voltage on constant 2 Amps, not 2 different voltages. So I can really see no benefit of having the batteries differ that much...but time will tell :-)

Edited September 2, 2018 by US69

[that0n3guy]

11 hours ago, US69 said:

Even when the regeneration energy only goes into one battery...that can not be responsible for the steep downhill braking issue....As i doesnt matter where the energy goes

If your only charging 1 battery durring breaking I would assume the system can handle only half the amps...  This would account for weaker breaking.

[Marty Backe]

13 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Engineering wise this makes zero sense. Wondering if this is a flawed NB proprietary BMS design or firmware issue. Please keep us informed after charging your Z if the batteries balance out again. 

Just checked the battery status this morning. All is fine; both batteries at 100-percent charge. Yea 

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Ziiten said:

What wheel was that following you, seemed to be doing alright on those rocks as well.

@Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" was following me on his day-old MSX.