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mrelwood

Gotway Msuper X 1600Wh, first day

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48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I received the X today. I felt that I was prepared for what it means to receive a Gotway after a full year and 9000km on a KingSong 16S. I had watched several unboxings, first impressions, reviews and ofcourse the famous Ecodrift's teardown/bashing on the X. For the most part I was prepared to what I got, the handle being the only positive surprise. Not a KS handle of course, but it is solid and very usable.

But there is one severe issue I wasn't able to prepare for. It truly baffled me, and it prevents me from riding for more than a few kilometers at a time. It's the sideways (dihedral?) angle of the pedals. It's up there guys. We're talking about past Lhotz levels (IIRC). It's just ridiculous, and I do like angled pedals! The 3" tire wants to stay upright a bit at curves, so there is some sideways over-leaning to do. This sets the inner leg ankle and foot to an even worse situation, and I feel as I should keep my feet way past the side edge of the pedals in order to even manage turns at faster than jogging speeds. I felt quite natural on the old Msuper V3 I got to try one time, the ergonomics were very good for me. Not so on the X. This issue is a show stopper for me, so I have to come up with a solution or I won't be able (or even want) to ride the X.

Quality: The materials, design, build quality, and operational behavior don't present the cost of the wheel in the slightest. The whole wheel looks plasticy, the shell material is familiar from childrens' toys, the shape and design are full of afterthoughts, and the wheel rides laboured and like a worn out car with tiny noises and vibrations all the time. The pedals drop and rattle to both open and closed positions. My 16S feels like a solid new wheel compared. I do hope some of the noises and vibrations would smooth out in time, but I won't hold my breath.

Operation: I assume that just running a motor of this type is a complicated process, and unless finely tuned, the operation is not smooth. The 16S glides forward completely effortlessly, like flying. The old Msuper V3 I tried was also churny, but not this bad. Some vibrations are locked to a certain speed, some to specific motor load levels. There is a lot more power at standstill compared to the 16S though, and the X has no problem keeping me steady at a slope where the 16S feels like it's running out of power. I felt so uncomfortable and insecure riding the X that I had a hard time going past 20km/h. My accelerations were on the grandpa spectrum. I will have to solve the pedal angle in order to get any idea of normal riding speeds and conditions.

Tire: My test ride was a short one, so truly just first impressions. Tire came pumped to 2.0 bars. I pumped it up further and tried so far with 3.0 and 2.8 bars. I don't think I'm at the sweet spot, as some bumps disappear (curbs up), but some are perhaps even amplified (curbs down). Seems to handle softer fine gravel on a new cycle path exceptionally well! Didn't feel insecure at all, while I do quite a bit on a 16x2.5" version of the same Chao Yang H-5102 tire. This is the second most important reason I got the wheel, so I'm relieved!

Ergonomics: Quite different from the Msuper V3. I loved the ergonomics on the V3, to me it felt natural, and the pedals felt big enough for my EU46 shoe. The ergonomics on the X are horrible, my feet still burn 6 hours after a 30min trip. The sidepads really are a joke, but luckily easily rectified. The sideways pedal angle is so horrible, I don't understand how anyone can ride the wheel without being 

App: I need to use the app a lot more to understand what it does and when. If I change the mode while the wheel is in motion, the app confirms the change and shows the new setting but the wheel didn't change the mode after all. The app also doesn't seem to remember settings, or they reset when I connect with the wheel. The app doesn't connect automatically, atleast if the wheel is powered on first. I was able to calibrate the wheel, since it came with a 5 degree forward angle. The process is similiar to that of KS. The battery percentage metering is very coarse, showing only even tens.

Charger: A 340Wh IPS Lhotz came with a 2A charger 19 months ago. The 1600Wh Msuper X comes with a 1.5A charger today. This is just... cruel.

 

Conclusion: After the first day I don't think the Msuper X is a wheel worth buying unless you are absolutely ready to make new sidepads and modify the pedals. To me it is not rideable otherwise. I know I have a lot of work to do to make it a wheel I'd use when I already have a 1000Wh 16S with a 16"x2.5" tire and bigfoot pedals. But I wanted a 1600Wh battery on a wide 18" tire, so I'm going to do my best to make this work.

You left out a thought under ergonomics.  anyway, i think i shared with you my experience going from KS to GW.  I had pretty much the same experience going from KS16 to Msuper V3s+, which is much wider than the V3.  I disliked it so much I didn't ride it more than 50 miles before I sold it.  Every time I rode it, I hated it more and more.  It is the top heavy and wide feel and the weird pedal angle.  It is hard to describe the feeling.  Maybe just takes getting used to but I didn't have that feeling on the Tesla which is almost as wide.  

Hope you are not like me and can adjust and eventually learn to like the GW, otherwise sell it for a loss like I did.

 

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2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I received the X today. I felt that I was prepared for what it means to receive a Gotway after a full year and 9000km on a KingSong 16S. I had watched several unboxings, first impressions, reviews and ofcourse the famous Ecodrift's teardown/bashing on the X. For the most part I was prepared to what I got, the handle being the only positive surprise. Not a KS handle of course, but it is solid and very usable.

But there is one severe issue I wasn't able to prepare for. It truly baffled me, and it prevents me from riding for more than a few kilometers at a time. It's the sideways (dihedral?) angle of the pedals. It's up there guys. We're talking about past Lhotz levels (IIRC). It's just ridiculous, and I do like angled pedals! The 3" tire wants to stay upright a bit at curves, so there is some sideways over-leaning to do. This sets the inner leg ankle and foot to an even worse situation, and I feel as I should keep my feet way past the side edge of the pedals in order to even manage turns at faster than jogging speeds. I felt quite natural on the old Msuper V3 I got to try one time, the ergonomics were very good for me. Not so on the X. This issue is a show stopper for me, so I have to come up with a solution or I won't be able (or even want) to ride the X.

Quality: The materials, design, build quality, and operational behavior don't present the cost of the wheel in the slightest. The whole wheel looks plasticy, the shell material is familiar from childrens' toys, the shape and design are full of afterthoughts, and the wheel rides laboured and like a worn out car with tiny noises and vibrations all the time. The pedals drop and rattle to both open and closed positions. My 16S feels like a solid new wheel compared. I do hope some of the noises and vibrations would smooth out in time, but I won't hold my breath.

Operation: I assume that just running a motor of this type is a complicated process, and unless finely tuned, the operation is not smooth. The 16S glides forward completely effortlessly, like flying. The old Msuper V3 I tried was also churny, but not this bad. Some vibrations are locked to a certain speed, some to specific motor load levels. There is a lot more power at standstill compared to the 16S though, and the X has no problem keeping me steady at a slope where the 16S feels like it's running out of power. I felt so uncomfortable and insecure riding the X that I had a hard time going past 20km/h. My accelerations were on the grandpa spectrum. I will have to solve the pedal angle in order to get any idea of normal riding speeds and conditions.

Tire: My test ride was a short one, so truly just first impressions. Tire came pumped to 2.0 bars. I pumped it up further and tried so far with 3.0 and 2.8 bars. I don't think I'm at the sweet spot, as some bumps disappear (curbs up), but some are perhaps even amplified (curbs down). Seems to handle softer fine gravel on a new cycle path exceptionally well! Didn't feel insecure at all, while I do quite a bit on a 16x2.5" version of the same Chao Yang H-5102 tire. This is the second most important reason I got the wheel, so I'm relieved!

Ergonomics: Quite different from the Msuper V3. I loved the ergonomics on the V3, to me it felt natural, and the pedals felt big enough for my EU46 shoe. The ergonomics on the X are horrible, my feet still burn 6 hours after a 30min trip. The sidepads really are a joke, but luckily easily rectified. The sideways pedal angle is so horrible, I don't understand how anyone can ride the wheel without being 

App: I need to use the app a lot more to understand what it does and when. If I change the mode while the wheel is in motion, the app confirms the change and shows the new setting but the wheel didn't change the mode after all. The app also doesn't seem to remember settings, or they reset when I connect with the wheel. The app doesn't connect automatically, atleast if the wheel is powered on first. I was able to calibrate the wheel, since it came with a 5 degree forward angle. The process is similiar to that of KS. The battery percentage metering is very coarse, showing only even tens.

Charger: A 340Wh IPS Lhotz came with a 2A charger 19 months ago. The 1600Wh Msuper X comes with a 1.5A charger today. This is just... cruel.

 

Conclusion: After the first day I don't think the Msuper X is a wheel worth buying unless you are absolutely ready to make new sidepads and modify the pedals. To me it is not rideable otherwise. I know I have a lot of work to do to make it a wheel I'd use when I already have a 1000Wh 16S with a 16"x2.5" tire and bigfoot pedals. But I wanted a 1600Wh battery on a wide 18" tire, so I'm going to do my best to make this work.

If you decide you don’t want it let me know, I’ll buy it?I love mine! 

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3 minutes ago, Jpd said:

If you decide you don’t want it let me know, I’ll buy it?I love mine! 

Did you require an adjustment period regarding the pedals?

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Just now, Marty Backe said:

Did you require an adjustment period regarding the pedals?

I did think they felt awkward for the first 10 minutes or so, now I love them!

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42 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I've been guilty myself of jumping to conclusions too quickly.  I'm kinda impulsive that way.  :efeec46606:  Usually I'll get something, be critical about it, and hate this and that.  But after using it for a while I'll change my mind and realize I was a little too hasty.  Maybe @mrelwood needs a solid week or two to get the feel of it and update us.

Exactly. It took a couple of days and 75-miles of riding before I started really liking the Tesla (it hit my shins in a totally different area compared to my other wheels at the time).

Being upset at a new wheel after only riding it for a handful of kilometers is a bit too hasty, IMO.

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22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I'm not giving up yet though. I've used modded pedals on the 16S with great success, I'll do the same with the X so I can adjust the angle to whatever feels the best.

Yes, I am using an iPhone. DarknessBot didn't have the option to change the riding mode, but as I'm probably set with medium, I'll use DB from now on.

Oh, the granny part is all me. The X was new to me and uncomfortable enough that I didn't want to go or accelerate faster.

I think @Marty Backe you have gotten quite familiar with how Gotways feel and ride in general. I can only compare to a year with the 16S and a few quick other tryouts. I would expect any new Gotway to feel quite familiar to you right from the start. And any other than my 16S to feel unfamiliar to me.

My way of adjusting is going to be adjusting the wheel. The tire seems to handle exactly as I hoped, so I'll try various ideas on the pedals.

Definitely. I feel strongly that I haven't been able to catch the feel of the X because of the obstacles. I don't even know how it accelerates or behaves at speed. Once I get the pedals in such way that they won't hurt and find a suitable tire pressure, only then can I get into the wheel properly. But I feel it is important for people considering buying any wheel to read/hear about the first impressions as well, positive and negative.

Yes, your review is certainly worthwhile. I would still try and give it a couple of battery charges worth of riding before you modify the pedals. You may adjust.

If you do mod the pedals I would be very interested in seeing how you do this. So keep us in the loop as you move forward.

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I have a week on mine now.   I like it.  Wheels all feel a bit different from each other.  

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1 minute ago, Kyle O said:

I have a week on mine now.   I like it.  Wheels all feel a bit different from each other.  

We're watching you. Looks like we have another wheel collector guys :laughbounce2:

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

We're watching you. Looks like we have another wheel collector guys :laughbounce2:

 Busted....?

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26 minutes ago, dismason said:

Do I dare say, congratulations to the new wheel :facepalm:?

It feels good to get new Italian leather shoes, but first they give blisters to the feet. After some time of use they will soften so much that the owner want to use them all the time.
When I saw your ride on your KingSong in Helsinki for a few days ago, it seemed as the KS16S wheel was a part of your body. I agree with what the older couple said to us, "your riding on you wheels is looking very very good".
The biggest disappointment with my KingSong 16C was that it has lived two previous lives before it came to me (I bought it as an new one, at a price for a new). First, it has lived as white wheel, then as a shiny black and now as a matt black. The vibrations from the wheel were in the begining so strong that I was convinced that I will never learn to ride an EUC. After 200km (124mi) I decided to rebuild it. Now it feels like a soft leather shoe :thumbup:.
Thank you for an honest review! Hope I will get the opportunity to test drive it sometime.

I like that, "old Italian leather shoes" :D

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 I would still try and give it a couple of battery charges worth of riding before you modify the pedals. You may adjust.

I generally agree. But having fought feet issues with EUC riding my tolerance and patience for foot pain doesn’t score very high... 

Quote

If you do mod the pedals I would be very interested in seeing how you do this. So keep us in the loop as you move forward.

I did and I shall! I made bigfoot v2 pedal plates for the 16S but didn’t trash the v1 yet. So for a temporary solution I put them on the X. Going for a test ride right now. Here’s a quick look on the mod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEOtwlRHZlA

Edited by mrelwood
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did your first kingsong ks16s have a weird feel to the pedals to as you modded them also, you might be just used to your nice comfortable big kingsong pedals now. hope you get to like it and give us updates on everything . i bet your back soon saying how wrong was i lol? anyway stay safe go for a ride ?

 

 

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Decreasing the sideways pedal angle was a huge improvement! Now I was able to actually ride, and start to get to know the wheel, I even had a good amount of fun!

I already found a few techniques to help me accelerate and brake a good bit harder, I think as fast as my best with the 16S. Now we can start the journey of a new wheel.

5 hours ago, stephen said:

did your first kingsong ks16s have a weird feel to the pedals to as you modded them also

You are correct that I'm of course spoiled with the large extensions, but the 16S pedal extensions were originally made to increase the painless range beyond 10km or so. Every ride started without discomfort from day one. As did my test ride with the Msuper V3, I actually liked the default pedals a lot.

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8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I generally agree. But having fought feet issues with EUC riding my tolerance and patience for foot pain doesn’t score very high... 

I did and I shall! I made bigfoot v2 pedal plates for the 16S but didn’t trash the v1 yet. So for a temporary solution I put them on the X. Going for a test ride right now. Here’s a quick look on the mod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEOtwlRHZlA

Thanks for the video. An easier mod than I thought (although not the prettiest :D) Fortunately that was easy and fast for you to do. Glad you're liking the wheel better now ?

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Posted (edited)

Update: I was interested in knowing what is my preferred dihedral angle, so I started measuring. Current modification is 12-13 degrees, and I’d prefer a little less, so I guess 11 is my ideal.

Then I measured the original pedals. Right side 13, left side 15. Swapped the pedals around, and the measurement followed. Seems that the main reason for my dismay is that the other pedal has a manufacturing... um... tolerance.

Edited by mrelwood
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4 hours ago, Xoltri said:

This wheel is so smooth and quiet.  There is only a bit of a growl at really low speeds, I believe that is common to most wheels though.  I think it's just the magnets cogging.  

Good to know! My msuperx made that sound out of the box, none of my other wheels have made that sound. Having received a faulty v10f I was a little worried that it might not be normal.

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10 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

<snip>

Alarms and tilt-back setting seem to reset or modify even when connecting with DarknessBot. This is very unsettling, having safety features changed or removed when connecting a speedometer is beyond my words.

Nice report.

Are you absolutely positive that your Gotway app is not re-connecting? It's not my understanding that DarknessBot does what you are reporting.

If you're really stuck, buy a cheapo disposable Android phone as a dedicated controller.

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16 hours ago, Xoltri said:

BTW, about your complaint of the pedals rattling

I disliked the extra play in component tolerances, not the mechanism itself. I don’t want something I use several times every day to make extra noise and feel cheap or worn out. But I already fixed it:

 

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Are you absolutely positive that your Gotway app is not re-connecting? It's not my understanding that DarknessBot does what you are reporting.

So far it hasn’t reconnected at app launch, wether if I quit DarknessBot first or if I didn’t even launch DB first.

I’m certain it is not DB’s intention to reset anything. But so far if I disable 1st and 2nd alarms in the Gotway app and connect with DB, I get an alarm at 35km/h. I don’t know if I would’ve gotten the tilt-back.

Once after connecting to DB (and not even opening the settings) I got the tilt-back at about 10km/h. (What would’ve happened if I had connected at speed?!) DB was not able to change it, had to do it in Gotway.

I guess this could be an issue with the Msuper X batch 2 firmware, that it resets settings when any connection is made. I will have to test this on a bench, I have to know if I have the alarm and tilt-back settings I want.

 

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