Gotway Tesla 1020wh Single Beep Question

[chulander]

Hi Everyone,

I have a newb question on what the Tesla beeps mean (I saw the universal Gotway beep post and didn’t find my situation listed).

I’m 185 lbs and with the Tesla battery charged to 90% and 48km tilt back(not sure what this setting exactly does), I decided I was comfortable enough to attempt high speeds for a 4 mile trip.

Yes, I wore a helmet, wrist, and the fox racing forearm/elbow/triceps guards. The fox racing knee/shin guards however are too restrictive to have any control (I fell a few times months ago during the training days) so I elected to gamble my knees’ safety until the new pads arrive.

As I was speeding, much faster than my normal pace (which is about a bicycle’s speed), I heard for the first time, a single beep.

I panicked like anyone who had two knee surgeries would and immediately slowed down and rolled about 100 yards concerned that there was something going (there no further beeps)

I decided to speed up again and the single beep returned to which I repeated the above process about 3-4 more times.

Upon reaching my destination, I checked the app which indicated a top speed of 21.3 mph. I also checked the tire pressure was surprised to find that it read 26 psi (It was filled to 41 psi about a week and 50 miles ago but since it’s an electric pump maybe it isn’t as accurate.

Note, on the return trip, I filled the tire to 41 psi and encounter the single beep again so my question is, if the Tesla is rated for 30mph and is the single beep just the 20 mph warning?

I watched Tishawn’s speed test video and didn’t hear a beep when he hit 20mph (but that could be because of the music from video editing) and the “respect the beep” crash video just had a series of consecutive beeps before he wiped out.

Thanks for your help everyone.

My only guess is that it has something to do with the tilt back setting on the official iOS app. I’m using the highest 48km setting since I read that the safety mechanism that prevents you from leaning forward may also throw a beginner off balance? I’ll have to try setting it to the lowest to see what the tilt back feeling feels like.

 

 

[Marty Backe]

Tilt-back and beeps are wholly unrelated.

Your tilt-back setting means that the pedals will tilt-back when you reach 48-km/s. I would recommend changing that to 10-km/s just so you can experience tilt-back and know how the wheel behaves and how you handle the tilt-back. Then change it to the desired value. Many people recommend turning tilt-back off instead of leaving it on for those very high speeds because the necessary power draw to activate tilt-back at extreme speeds when the battery is on the low side, could result in a cut-out. I'm tired, so my sentences are dragging on.... 

There are 3 Gotway alarms. The first two you can turn off. The 3rd you can't, and it's activated when you are at 80-percent of maximum available power (for any given battery capacity, which means the speed that it's activated will decrease as your battery level decreases).

Although each alarm was a given number of beeps per second, sometimes if you are right on the edge of the given speed, you can sometimes get just a single beep. 

[meepmeepmayer]

2 possibilities for a single beep:

• A slow single beep is the first low battery alarm (next ones would be 2 and 3 slow beeps).
• The speed alarms are fast beeps in groups of 2, 3 or continuous (80% alarm). If you hit a speed limit just for a moment, you might only hear the first beep of a two or 3 beep speed alarm.

Probably the second is what happened. 21.3mph = 34.3km/h, and the default second alarm is at 33 or 34 km/h (not sure entirely), so it might have been that.

You can disable or up the first two speed alarms. Just never ignore the third alarm.

Btw it does not matter what a EUC is "rated" for. Top speed is weight dependent, 30mph is the upper limit before it gets dangerous regardless of your weight. If you can go up to 30 without the 3rd alarm, good. With your weight it should work. But don't think you can go 30 just because something is "rated" for that.

[chulander]

Thanks Marty for the pro-tip. I’m glad I did not have to discover first hand that the tilt-back mechanism contributes to a cutoff at extreme speeds.

Regarding the 10km setting. Definitely going to try that later today.

[chulander]

Thanks @meepmeepmayer for the detailed beep and speed explanation. I just assumed marketed top-speed is top-speed for all haha. How naive of me.

im going to disable the first two alarms to avoid developing a boy who cried wolf syndrome and save the panic braking to the only alarm that matters.

i have another question, how did you learn of these details? I couldn’t find an English manual.

Don’t say the knowledge was accumulated through trial and painful error? 

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, chulander said:

Don’t say the knowledge was accumulated through trial and painful error? 

Haha, with EUCs, pretty much

You can always check the real world behavior of your wheel by opening an app (so you have a speed meter) and simply lifting the wheel (lift test). Stand it between your legs, bend knees, rest your forearms on your thighs, then you have some good control in lifting and tilting the thing. You'll see when it beeps then or tilts back (which feels like a jolt while holding it up).

The speed alarms are useful if you want to set yourself a speed limit, if you want one. If you have tiltback enabled, I would always have a speed alarm set a bit lower than the tiltback. Tiltback might throw you off balance if it comes unexpectedly at high speed (and there's the tiny danger of tiltback near max speed overpowering the wheel, but I don't think anyone managed to do that yet).

I wouldn't say you're naive, just (new) people might think EUCs work like cars or other vehicles they're used to. Nobody should crash because "Hey this thing is rated for X so it means I must be able to go X", that was the reason I stressed that. Reality is, EUCs only have a power envelope, and it depends on your weight how fast, far, which incline, etc you can go in safety (because exceeding the envelope is always a crash, unlike e.g. a car that simply won't go faster, so you have to watch that). Your weight is fine though, you should reach the 30 if you want to. As long as you never ignore the 80% alarm (continuous beeps I think, or maybe 5), you're perfectly fine.

[Boogieman]

@meepmeepmayerand @Marty Backe

How can you set the wheel beep alarms?

In wheellog I can set phone alarms (3leevels) and amp alarm (what's a good limit? I have mine at 100A) and battery alarm, but as I understand it those are just phone alarms, not beeps from the Tesla.

I can however disable alarm 1 and 2 under wheel settings but not set speed for them and also set tilt back at desired speed.

I get beeps at 30km/h, tiltback is set to 35. I weigh 195lbs without gear so I guess another 10lbs for backpack helmet and stuff.

I get worried every time I hear the beep as it is first one beep (30km/h) and just a few km/h faster (31-32km/h maybe) 2 beeps, but that can't be the 80% I guess?

I would like to set a beep alarm around 40-45km/h to have some margin to 50 (which I guess will be my max roughly due to weight) also if battery goes down to 50% (cause 80% alarm comes at an earlier speed when low (er) battery I guess).

Maybe it's better to just disable the built in alarms if they can not be set so WHEN I hear a beep I know I must slow down. But when you hear 80% alarm you have some margin right? It's not like 1km/h faster than 80% = cutoff?

Had my first really long ride today (around 35km). Several hours and still 50% left when coming home, but that's because I still go slow (25-30) of course, but really good battery on this little machine

[chulander]

@meepmeepmayer thanks again for all that information. As a beginner, it’s really helpful to know how to test the performance of the wheel by holding in the way you described. 

I disabled all the alarms and it turns out, the 20 mph beep was something I set through the iOS darkness bot app a while ago and forgot it was there. I’ve been beep free for the past 20 miles. It is awesome.

I would have replied earlier but as a newb account, I’m restricted to two replies per day? I guess it’s to prevent spam bots

 

 

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, Boogieman said:

How can you set the wheel beep alarms?

I'd use the Gotway App. Things are sketchy as is without third party involvement. Also Wheellog disabled my speed alarms so I don't trust it.

GWs have these configurable things:

* Two speed alarms, two or three beeps.

* Tiltback by speed.

If you hear one beep, that's the beginning of an aborted alarm (or the first low battery beep, but these are a bit longer) so no problem there. Don't worry about beeps, they are warnings, not the wheel laughing at you "Too late lol now you're dead". Same for 80% alarm, you still have reserves (unlikely you ever hear it unless you go crazy fast).

I'd set speed alarms as you like them (or off), and tiltback off or close to top speed (with a nice speed alarm a bit lower so you're not surprised by it). And if you hear a beep, cooly and relaxedly slow down and that's it

 

[mrelwood]

On 7/7/2018 at 8:10 AM, Marty Backe said:

the necessary power draw to activate tilt-back at extreme speeds when the battery is on the low side, could result in a cut-out.

I can’t quite wrap my head around this, and would love to hear more.

To be precise with the terminology, to my understanding a cut-out is when a wheel suddenly stops balancing. Over-lean is when the rider tries to accelerate faster than what the wheel is capable of. (The wheel will shut off when the over-lean reaches 45-50 degrees.)

When the power capability of a wheel is surpassed, the event is an over-lean. If the rider is not accelerating enough to cause an over-lean, the energy required to keep the rider upright (= spin the motor forward) is still the same, wether the wheel tries to tilt-back (= spin the motor forward) or not.

What am I missing?

I’ve had a low battery tilt-back at a uphill bump that almost failed. At that moment all available power (for tiltback and keeping me upright) was used to accelerate the motor, which is what keeps me upright. Only once the wheel catched the balance I noticed that it further accelerated to a tilt-back.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I can’t quite wrap my head around this, and would love to hear more.

To be precise with the terminology, to my understanding a cut-out is when a wheel suddenly stops balancing. Over-lean is when the rider tries to accelerate faster than what the wheel is capable of. (The wheel will shut off when the over-lean reaches 45-50 degrees.)

When the power capability of a wheel is surpassed, the event is an over-lean. If the rider is not accelerating enough to cause an over-lean, the energy required to keep the rider upright (= spin the motor forward) is still the same, wether the wheel tries to tilt-back (= spin the motor forward) or not.

What am I missing?

I’ve had a low battery tilt-back at a uphill bump that almost failed. At that moment all available power (for tiltback and keeping me upright) was used to accelerate the motor, which is what keeps me upright. Only once the wheel catched the balance I noticed that it further accelerated to a tilt-back.

This topic has be thoroughly discussed before. Perhaps you can use the search function to try and find the previous discussions. Try this Google search URL:  site:forum.electricunicycle.org tilt-back cutout

 

[US69]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I can’t quite wrap my head around this, and would love to hear more.

To be precise with the terminology, to my understanding a cut-out is when a wheel suddenly stops balancing. Over-lean is when the rider tries to accelerate faster than what the wheel is capable of. (The wheel will shut off when the over-lean reaches 45-50 degrees.)

When the power capability of a wheel is surpassed, the event is an over-lean. If the rider is not accelerating enough to cause an over-lean, the energy required to keep the rider upright (= spin the motor forward) is still the same, wether the wheel tries to tilt-back (= spin the motor forward) or not.

What am I missing?

I’ve had a low battery tilt-back at a uphill bump that almost failed. At that moment all available power (for tiltback and keeping me upright) was used to accelerate the motor, which is what keeps me upright. Only once the wheel catched the balance I noticed that it further accelerated to a tilt-back.

Technically speaking a tiltback is Nothing else as the Wheel going faster to have the ability to get the pedals tilt up, that Needs Energy! When speeding/driving you Always press against the pedals(otherwise you would slow down) , and a force(Energy) is needed to work against your "Pressing/speeding"....that is just done by moving the Wheel even a bit faster, to lift up the pedals…...

When you are on the Edge of a cutout, near the end of what the Motor is capable to do.......lets say very barely before the Wheel is able to balance you anymore, a tiltback might be the last Little tiny bit of  power surge that then leads to the cut out itself! Thats why it is a bad idea to have  a tiltback set to a Speed that Wheel is just even able todo and the reason why a lot riders shut off the tiltback at all and only rely on the acoustic 80% warning! (This Explanation goes for Gotways!) On a KS the tiltback automatically goes down when Energy/battery is going down that's why on a KS, where you can not shut off TB is a different Situation. A KS tries to never let you run into a cutoff.

Thats at least the short Explanation.....

And no, this is no:This KS or that GW System is better,....each has it advantage or disadvantage…..it are just different safety philosophies!

[Boogieman]

15 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd use the Gotway App. Things are sketchy as is without third party involvement. Also Wheellog disabled my speed alarms so I don't trust it.

GWs have these configurable things:

* Two speed alarms, two or three beeps.

* Tiltback by speed.

If you hear one beep, that's the beginning of an aborted alarm (or the first low battery beep, but these are a bit longer) so no problem there. Don't worry about beeps, they are warnings, not the wheel laughing at you "Too late lol now you're dead". Same for 80% alarm, you still have reserves (unlikely you ever hear it unless you go crazy fast).

I'd set speed alarms as you like them (or off), and tiltback off or close to top speed (with a nice speed alarm a bit lower so you're not surprised by it). And if you hear a beep, cooly and relaxedly slow down and that's it

 

Thanks a lot.

So you can not set a speed of your liking for first alarm (like say 40km/h) and second alarm is fixed based on energy draw 80%.

I thought you had found a way to modify the speed for the first double beeps (two...as you said, it was just a partial double beep when I heard only one)

I've been driving around beeping all day after I got my new elbow/arm protection (after yesterday's crash)... Bauer hockey protection that extend a bit down on fore arm and up on biceps, hard shell and absorbing padding... They feel super safe and are really light & comfy though slightly warm ? )

Time to disable one beep I guess.

 

Really confusing names on beep settings and no warning whatever I set in wheellog at least:

*Turn off level 1 alarm (I guess 30km/h)

*Turn off level 2 alarm (I guess turns off both?)

*Turn on alarms

 

Why not just tickboxes to activate/deactivate

* 30km/h alarm

* max speed alarm

And if deactivating max speed, a prompt that says this can lead to a "sudden crash"

 

Will try the original gotway again. Had some problems with some version (login and stuff) after googling it here on the forum (as the "official", that I also had to Google, does not seem to work)

[Marty Backe]

36 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

Thanks a lot.

So you can not set a speed of your liking for first alarm (like say 40km/h) and second alarm is fixed based on energy draw 80%.

I thought you had found a way to modify the speed for the first double beeps (two...as you said, it was just a partial double beep when I heard only one)

I've been driving around beeping all day after I got my new elbow/arm protection (after yesterday's crash)... Bauer hockey protection that extend a bit down on fore arm and up on biceps, hard shell and absorbing padding... They feel super safe and are really light & comfy though slightly warm ? )

Time to disable one beep I guess.

 

Really confusing names on beep settings and no warning whatever I set in wheellog at least:

*Turn off level 1 alarm (I guess 30km/h)

*Turn off level 2 alarm (I guess turns off both?)

*Turn on alarms

 

Why not just tickboxes to activate/deactivate

* 30km/h alarm

* max speed alarm

And if deactivating max speed, a prompt that says this can lead to a "sudden crash"

 

Will try the original gotway again. Had some problems with some version (login and stuff) after googling it here on the forum (as the "official", that I also had to Google, does not seem to work)

Whatever you do, just don't try and understand the reasoning behind how Gotway designed their app. You'll go insane 

To correct your first paragraph, there are three alarms. The first two are fixed speeds (and those speeds vary depending on the wheel). You can turn those off. The 3rd alarm cannot be disabled (although you can open the wheel and disconnect the beeper )

You can customize the WheelLog alarm speeds (three alarms) but they are independent from the wheel alarms that are triggered from the control board. So if you really want customized alarms, disable the Gotway alarms and use the WheelLog alarms.

[Boogieman]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

1.Whatever you do, just don't try and understand the reasoning behind how Gotway designed their app. You'll go insane 

2.To correct your first paragraph, there are three alarms. The first two are fixed speeds (and those speeds vary depending on the wheel). You can turn those off. The 3rd alarm cannot be disabled (although you can open the wheel and disconnect the beeper )

3.You can customize the WheelLog alarm speeds (three alarms) but they are independent from the wheel alarms that are triggered from the control board. So if you really want customized alarms, disable the Gotway alarms and use the WheelLog alarms.

1. Haha, I agree. It's not really intuitive everywhere  

2. Oh ? good news. Gotway have some kind of safety thinking after all ? Fixed hazard alarm (albeit no instruction what its for ?)

Out of the two I can disable I'll try to find out which one is 30km/h and which one is "next higher speed". Should be easy, just turn of level 1 and see if 30km/h beep stops else it's the other one and the 3rd/safety/80% alarm is "always on".

3. I did that but my phone don't seem to vibrate at those limits...OR....it vibrates less than my legs LOL. Also made sure that pebble integration was off (as I don't have one). I use a separate phone for the wheel log as my Samsung s9+ will not connect via Bluetooth for some reason, so I just use the Sammy for music (in one ? so can still hear other stuff...like wheel and car beeps)

Thanks

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

1. Haha, I agree. It's not really intuitive everywhere  

2. Oh ? good news. Gotway have some kind of safety thinking after all ? Fixed hazard alarm (albeit no instruction what its for ?)

Out of the two I can disable I'll try to find out which one is 30km/h and which one is "next higher speed". Should be easy, just turn of level 1 and see if 30km/h beep stops else it's the other one and the 3rd/safety/80% alarm is "always on".

3. I did that but my phone don't seem to vibrate at those limits...OR....it vibrates less than my legs LOL. Also made sure that pebble integration was off (as I don't have one). I use a separate phone for the wheel log as my Samsung s9+ will not connect via Bluetooth for some reason, so I just use the Sammy for music (in one ? so can still hear other stuff...like wheel and car beeps)

Thanks

I know that there are one or two WheelLog vibrate settings, but you've probably already tested it.

A good way to experiment with the WheelLog app is to use very low speeds (3km/h). Surely at those speeds your legs aren't vibrating 

[meepmeepmayer]

@Boogieman Not sure what is going on exactly now

But I suspect the new Wheellog app might complicate the situation. I had to use "open all alarms" in the GW app (not sure what that means, and it always sounds so scary) before pressing "default alarms" so the default alarms 30km/h and 33-35km/h (somewhere there) would work again, because simply opening Wheellog configuration menu disabled them (the wheel double beeps when you change a setting and that was going on).

So if you have any doubts or uncertainties, use the old Wheellog from the Play Store (can't change settings) and then default your wheel alarms like described above. Then you can see what happens, you can change the alarms, and after that you can see if using the new Wheellog version will auto-change anything. Gotta be systematic Or everything is already as you want it and you confirmed it (e.g. by a lift test) then you're good.

Naturally, when the wheel beeps, it's a Wheel alarm, not one from Wheellog (though the new Wheellog can set the wheel alarms).

[Boogieman]

On 7/10/2018 at 11:56 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

@Boogieman Not sure what is going on exactly now

But I suspect the new Wheellog app might complicate the situation. I had to use "open all alarms" in the GW app (not sure what that means, and it always sounds so scary) before pressing "default alarms" so the default alarms 30km/h and 33-35km/h (somewhere there) would work again, because simply opening Wheellog configuration menu disabled them (the wheel double beeps when you change a setting and that was going on).

So if you have any doubts or uncertainties, use the old Wheellog from the Play Store (can't change settings) and then default your wheel alarms like described above. Then you can see what happens, you can change the alarms, and after that you can see if using the new Wheellog version will auto-change anything. Gotta be systematic Or everything is already as you want it and you confirmed it (e.g. by a lift test) then you're good.

Naturally, when the wheel beeps, it's a Wheel alarm, not one from Wheellog (though the new Wheellog can set the wheel alarms).

Ok, now I have tried and this is how it worked.

1. I have tested wheellog version: Forked WheelLog_17092017 (no about/version screen)

2. I also tested: Gotway 1.0 (on about screen)

1A. Set tiltback to disabled (0) in wheellog on phone 1 and checked that it worked. You CAN see current setting here (not always good, see further down)

1B. I switched to gotway on phone 2. Connected and just checked the scrollable tiltback setting list without selecting anything. You can NOT see current setting.

1C. Switched to phone 2 also for wheellog and checked tiltback. Now it's back to default 25km/h in the setting (Never happened when only using wheellog on phone 1)

1 Conclusion: Tiltback and likely also all other settings are WRITE ONLY settings to wheel. This means the app can not READ current setting value from wheel, but just shows default when starting the app first time and after that it saves the "current data" on your phone to show next time you open it. So if you want to be SURE always select the settings you want when opening the app in following scenarios.

- first time after install of app (also when installing newer versions or after phone factory reset and reinstall)

- when installing on a new phone

- if changing between apps wheellog & gotway (just to be sure)

 

2. This is how the alarms in wheellog above works (tested by lifting wheel and checking Speedo in wheellog and listening for the beeps)

1. "Pre cutout" / "80% power usage" / 53km/h alarm always work regardless off below settings.

"Pre cutout"/"80% power usage" alarm= continuous beeps, no pause.

This is when it's a good idea to slow down ?

2. Below is how the 2 other alarms (that can be disabled) work in wheellog. None of the speeds can be manually configurable but are fixed speeds (same speed if I lift wheel or ride wheel, so should be speed related)

Level 1 30km/h = 2beeps pause 2beeps pause a.s.o.

Level 2 35km/h = 3beeps pause 3beeps pause  a.s.o.

 

It might be a good idea to learn how to ride at a fixed speed (after handling lower speeds of course) by going in and out of alarm 1 until you basically hear 1beep out of 2, slow down slightly till no beep, speed up slightly to 1beep and slow down a.s.o.

It is not as easy as one might think (for a n00b like me anyway) to stay within 1km/h but I think it's useful when later aiming for {"pre cutout", 80%power ,53km/h} by slowly going towards that speed untill continuous beeps are heard, then moving in and out of the beeps to stay close to max as safe as possible. But....first it's time for 35km/h test to check leg shake Vs wobble ?

[meepmeepmayer]

It's a science

Small thing: at 50km/h (or some other speed, 50 on my ACM) the wheel does rapidly spin up to 65 (on ACM) to save you, and then shuts down (if it can't, like while lifted).That's when the continuous beeps play. I'm not 100% sure this "that speed where the wheel goes crazy" alarm is the same as the 80% alarm. Going 50 while lifting is not overstressing the wheel the slightest.

[mrelwood]

I'm sorry that I'm back beating on a dying horse, but based on everything I know about how these wheels work, the "theory" that makes people disable their tilt-back is flawed. Compromising safety based on such theory is dangerous, especially since the last warning beep is often inaudible at those speeds.

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This topic has be thoroughly discussed before. Perhaps you can use the search function to try and find the previous discussions. Try this Google search URL:  site:forum.electricunicycle.org tilt-back cutout

I should've of course searched before commenting. I have now read every related post I was able to find up to two years back. So far a proper conclusion has been that "The problem of setting a tiltback so high (48km/h) was on early Acm/msuper versions.", by US69.

The theory is that "Tilt-back requires power that the wheel might not have, and will cut-off."

There is one interesting thread about the science of tilt-back. Outcome is that tilt-back requires as much energy as it takes for the wheel to get in front of you. Which is the same as the rider starting to brake himself.

1) Motor. If the top speed of the motor was very close to the tilt-back speed, it is possible for the tilt-back to accelerate up to the cut-off speed. But since the max tilt-back speed is 48km/h (tilt-back starts slowly already at 42km/h) and the current Gotways are capable of going a good deal faster, this can't happen on current wheels.

2) Battery. None of the modern wheels cuts out immediately if it fails to keep the pedals level because of lack of power. A few years ago they did, and it was called a BMS shut-down. It has been prevented by using BMS units better suitable for EUCs. The wheel will only cut-off when the pedals are tilted 45-50 degrees. That is an over-lean.

3) Rider. If the rider accelerates so fast that the battery can't keep up, the wheel will keep trying to accelerate using all available power. If the tilt-back engages in that situation, there is no difference, the wheel will still try to accelerate using all available power. If there is not enough power for the wheel to accelerate from behind to front of the rider, the rider has no ability to brake himself either. That is an over-lean, and would happen with or without tilt-back.

If you are stuck with the phrase "tilt-back requires additional power", think about where would that additional power go. It would go into accelerating, which is what is needed to start braking in the first place. Starting braking requires the same amount of power wether it is started by tilt-back or your toes.

If you have a modern Gotway, please do not disable the tilt-back based on that theory unless someone technically adept is able to explain how and why the theory is sound.

If you have other reasons for disabling tilt-back, so be it. I only want to point out that this theory is no longer viable on modern Gotways.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I'm sorry that I'm back beating on a dying horse, but based on everything I know about how these wheels work, the "theory" that makes people disable their tilt-back is flawed. Compromising safety based on such theory is dangerous, especially since the last warning beep is often inaudible at those speeds.

I should've of course searched before commenting. I have now read every related post I was able to find up to two years back. So far a proper conclusion has been that "The problem of setting a tiltback so high (48km/h) was on early Acm/msuper versions.", by US69.

The theory is that "Tilt-back requires power that the wheel might not have, and will cut-off."

There is one interesting thread about the science of tilt-back. Outcome is that tilt-back requires as much energy as it takes for the wheel to get in front of you. Which is the same as the rider starting to brake himself.

1) Motor. If the top speed of the motor was very close to the tilt-back speed, it is possible for the tilt-back to accelerate up to the cut-off speed. But since the max tilt-back speed is 48km/h (tilt-back starts slowly already at 42km/h) and the current Gotways are capable of going a good deal faster, this can't happen on current wheels.

2) Battery. None of the modern wheels cuts out immediately if it fails to keep the pedals level because of lack of power. A few years ago they did, and it was called a BMS shut-down. It has been prevented by using BMS units better suitable for EUCs. The wheel will only cut-off when the pedals are tilted 45-50 degrees. That is an over-lean.

3) Rider. If the rider accelerates so fast that the battery can't keep up, the wheel will keep trying to accelerate using all available power. If the tilt-back engages in that situation, there is no difference, the wheel will still try to accelerate using all available power. If there is not enough power for the wheel to accelerate from behind to front of the rider, the rider has no ability to brake himself either. That is an over-lean, and would happen with or without tilt-back.

If you are stuck with the phrase "tilt-back requires additional power", think about where would that additional power go. It would go into accelerating, which is what is needed to start braking in the first place. Starting braking requires the same amount of power wether it is started by tilt-back or your toes.

If you have a modern Gotway, please do not disable the tilt-back based on that theory unless someone technically adept is able to explain how and why the theory is sound.

If you have other reasons for disabling tilt-back, so be it. I only want to point out that this theory is no longer viable on modern Gotways.

I actually agree with you. Within the last few months I have come to this realization and have started enabling tilt-back at 25-mph (I have no desire to go faster than that). As you say, the modern Gotway wheels can go so much faster, I don't think lack of power will be an issue.

But I still wouldn't recommend the use of tilt-back at the upper speed limit of any particular wheel.

[Boogieman]

On 7/12/2018 at 6:46 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

It's a science

Small thing: at 50km/h (or some other speed, 50 on my ACM) the wheel does rapidly spin up to 65 (on ACM) to save you, and then shuts down (if it can't, like while lifted).That's when the continuous beeps play. I'm not 100% sure this "that speed where the wheel goes crazy" alarm is the same as the 80% alarm. Going 50 while lifting is not overstressing the wheel the slightest.

Save you by speeding up?

Ouch, that sounds crazy dangerous if the wheel speed up quickly after reaching a speed close to cutout. That should basically mean instant face plant shortly after reaching that speed. Are you sure that your wheel is not faulty or maybe by mistake tilt the wheel more forward when holding it in the air due to the force of the wheel at that speed? Or could it be that you have tiltback activated at that speed? That should cause a speed up to "tilt you back" (driving away from you under your body) and if in the air the gyro gets no response and thus increase speed quickly to try to get a response.

My Tesla is not like that (though I have tiltback disabled after trying it in low speed) when lifting the wheel. I had to hold it pretty firm though and tilt very little to get a slow and controlled speed increase so that I could read the speedometer of wheellog at the same time.

I slowly accelerated to max (59km/h It cutout when free wheeling) and only thing that differed  from lower speeds was that it started beeping continuously at 53km/h and at 59km/h it felt like a small jerk as it stopped, likely since power was cut and no more force was used to rotate the wheel in fed direction, which means it basically goes from accelerating to braking (free wheel braking but nevertheless braking) and that is what causes the momentum that feels like a sudden jerk, the shift in momentum.

On the Tesla 59km/h is likely the frequency  limit of the frequency drive/board OR the rpm where the logic board could miss pulses in the feedback loop OR a limit where even a light rider would overload the motor (Amperage) OR where the structural limits of the wheel starts to get compromised....or all, but I guess only Gotway knows that or anyone who has hacked the code (I am sure someone has at least partially).

I think I'm gonna high speed film the wheel spinning for fun, just to see if the rim and tyre is straight and how the tyre reacts on the centrifugal force. It is a quite baloony tyre so it might change shape a bit

[mrelwood]

37 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

Save you by speeding up?

That’s what tilt-back does. And that’s what your toes do when you start to brake.

37 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

 Ouch, that sounds crazy dangerous if the wheel speed up quickly after reaching a speed close to cutout.

Cut-out was at 65, speeding (tilt-back) happened at 50. It’s not ”close”, it’s a decent and safe amount of buffer.

I have no idea why his wheel does that, as it sure sounds like tilt-back at 50km/h. But all other than GW wheels would do the exact same thing near the reported max riding speed.

[Boogieman]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

1. That’s what tilt-back does. And that’s what your toes do when you start to brake.

2. Cut-out was at 65, speeding (tilt-back) happened at 50. It’s not ”close”, it’s a decent and safe amount of buffer.

I have no idea why his wheel does that, as it sure sounds like tilt-back at 50km/h. But all other than GW wheels would do the exact same thing near the reported max riding speed.

Thanks for the reply mrelwood, even though I was not quoting you, I guess you know eachother well as it seems like you know his wheel.

1. Though I'm pretty sure you miswrote something (auto correct?) on the first point (marked 1 in quote) above, unless I misinterpreted the sentence. Tiltback part is correct, but when you brake (with your toes?), the wheel should not speed up, that would make slowing down impossible. 

2. I guessed that tiltback was involved (as I wrote) as that is a reasonable explanation to why a wheel should speed up "uncontrolled" when holding wheel above ground tilting it just slightly for slow speed increase (=no or to little gyro feedback on tiltback to be interpreted as braking=speed up more).

3. Regarding if tiltback can cause a cutoff or not I have nothing to add more than, to be sure...a safe experiment could be performed.

Timelog the voltage over the battery (or best thing to bypass any capacitor equalisation, if you have equipment for high current logging...the 100+ amps, in line with motor cables...which are 3-phase I guess? Haven't even looked/thought about it but it would almost be mandatory with the efficiency of a modern EUC..or?) and make a synched movie as you hold the wheel above ground and do a forced "tiltback cutout". While not realworld scenario, if logged with decent equipment you should (or should not...let the experiment be the judge) see a voltage drop as tiltback start due to higher power needs (wheel quickly speed up) which.....sounds reasonable, but I'm just an automation and test engineer (electrics, industrial motors and inverters, programming and that kind of stuff) so don't take my word for it but in theory:

1. Acceleration/decceleration cause the biggest amp spike. Tiltback = acceleration (even from constant speed)

2. higher speed = higher power output needed (aka you can go 80km in 10km/h Vs around 30km in 40km/h....and that is not only wind resistance and friction related, but also motor efficiency related, all motors have their optimum RPM for optimum efficiency...but this is really just a MINOR compare to point 1 above)

[meepmeepmayer]

Just tested it again and the sudden spin up was indeed the tiltback. Wheel accelerates smoothly over the 50 with tiltback disabled. I thought the spin-up had been there with tiltback disabled, did this lift test a LOT, but looks like I didn't disable it after all in the earlier experiments (I blame the strangely worded GW app). Sorry.

1 hour ago, Boogieman said:

1. Though I'm pretty sure you miswrote something (auto correct?) on the first point (marked 1 in quote) above, unless I misinterpreted the sentence. Tiltback part is correct, but when you brake (with your toes?), the wheel should not speed up, that would make slowing down impossible.

Actually, his is an astute observation. Suddenly push your weight onto your toes while riding (try it at low speed!), the wheel will rush forward and "overtake you" quickly, and you lose balance and fall back for a moment (that's why you should try it at low speed). Which I'm pretty sure is very similar to a sudden harsh tiltback at speed (never tried how that feels because I want to live). So in some way, you brake by pushing on your toes. Even though in reality, you brake by moving your center of gravity back (which also may involve moving your body back with some toe pressure).

Guess the reason for some of the confusion (also with a lot of related topics) is that EUCs aren't just always in some "good" stable state, but are controlled by moving around that stable state in a dynamic manner and you can go some distance from that stable state. So e.g. the short-term but not-so-minor instability of the wheel quickly overtaking you is another way to control the wheel.

--

As far as I've understood, the speed where the motor won't rotate faster is due to the induced back-EMF voltage reaching the input voltage. Maybe that's where the wheel stops, maybe they have a fixed, lower number because they know what follows. You could test that by seeing if the wheel shuts down earlier at lower battery (=voltage). I'm too lazy to do that experiment, but if anyone needs something to do...

Ridiculous that we can't just ask GW exactly what alarms there are and how they work.