!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[Seba]

2 hours ago, US69 said:

@Flyboy10

Unfortunatly i dont find the calibration Video that is Floating around. I hope my description is good enough, ,otherwise hit me up by PM and i will record a vid myself.

 

I've made such video, but for now it's in Polish only  I had to add an English translation some time ago, but always had something more important to do...  The problem with lift sensors is that they are tightened too much in factory, so software calibration doesn't help. Also telescopic element should have some play. Here is the Polish video, I hope to make an English dubbing this weekend. Most important things starts at 7:29:

 

[US69]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

I've made such video, but for now it's in Polish only  I had to add an English translation some time ago, but always had something more important to do...  The problem with lift sensors is that they are tightened too much in factory, so software calibration doesn't help. Also telescopic element should have some play. Here is the Polish video, I hope to make an English dubbing this weekend. Most important things starts at 7:29:

 

Yeah, nice video.....well done!

But we were talking about the software calibration, which is the first thing the user should try.

I havent heard more than about some single cases, where the software calibration dont work.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by US69

[Seba]

26 minutes ago, US69 said:

I havent heard more than about some single cases, where the software calibration dont work.

Both my wheels (L and XL) required readjustment of the screw that links the lift sensor to the telescopic stem. The whole sensing system is very cleverly designed, but for succesful operation requires that no excessive force is used to screw the sensor to the telescopic stem. If this sensor (so called load cell) is screwed too much, usable signal range is very small (the difference between not lifted and lifted), so calibration won't work as expected. Screw linking the center part of the sensor to the telescopic stem needs to be tightened just to cancel any play. As a rule it's better to leave some play than to tighten the screw too much.

[US69]

2 minutes ago, Seba said:

Both my wheels (L and XL) required readjustment of the screw that links the lift sensor to the telescopic stem. The whole sensing system is very cleverly designed, but for succesful operation requires that no excessive force is used to screw the sensor to the telescopic stem. If this sensor (so called load cell) is screwed too much, usable signal range is very small (the difference between not lifted and lifted), so calibration won't work as expected. Screw linking the center part of the sensor to the telescopic stem needs to be tightened just to cancel any play. As a rule it's better to leave some play than to tighten the screw too much.

As said: Really good video and even better explanation :-) And for those who‘s calibration might not work...its very valuable!

My only point is to first do the software calibration....before opening the wheel!

[Seba]

1 minute ago, US69 said:

As said: Really good video and even better explanation :-) And for those who‘s calibration might not work...its very valuable!

Thank you. It's really easy to do and after this realignment the whole system works like a charm.

2 minutes ago, US69 said:

My only point is to first do the software calibration....before opening the wheel!

Of course you're right. In-software calibration is the first thing to do and may be succesful in some cases, but - as I previously stated - the whole lift sensing system is very clever and well designed. If assembled correctly it works almost perfectly. But the problem is that in reality, factory workers seems to not put enough care to control tightening force.

[Lutalo]

4 hours ago, Seba said:

I've made such video, but for now it's in Polish only  I had to add an English translation some time ago, but always had something more important to do...  The problem with lift sensors is that they are tightened too much in factory, so software calibration doesn't help. Also telescopic element should have some play. Here is the Polish video, I hope to make an English dubbing this weekend. Most important things starts at 7:29:

 

Very nice. Even though I did not understand the Polish, I understood the portions regarding the tensioning of the lift sensor. 

[gr8ps]

11 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Today at 5:45 am on my way to work I came to a stop light. typically I dismount but today i just grabbed a nearby street sign and started idling slowly. I heard the familiar "Beep Beep" of the wheel disengaging and it did just that while I was on it. If I hadn't been holding on the the street sign, I would have for sure fallen (still did kinda).

I was gonna pull the trigger on the 18XL after the 16X wasn't to my taste but I think I'm going to wait a few revisions. 

[Dave U]

On 3/14/2019 at 10:12 AM, rolauk said:

Pushing the wheel inside for 45 seconds - finally got it on camera.

I noticed in your video you are wearing socks while trolleying your wheel. In reality this is an excellent way to collect static build up from the carpet/rug and flooring that you are walking on. It took 45 seconds for the shaking to start which is in my opinion probably enough time for the static to build up. This also falls into my situation when it happened to me twice on the same day. It also took anywhere from a minute to 4 minutes  to build up a static charge inside the 2 different stores, I'm assuming. I'm going to state very strongly that we are giving an ESD through our bodies collecting this charge and then displacing the ESD through the Trolley handle which has metal screws underneath holding the plastic handle together, then traveling through the metal square tubes down to the lift sensors in which has electrical wiring attached leading to electrical components/hardware to produce this violent shaking. Electric static discharge can jump and not necessarily be in direct contact. I had my lift sensor off during my 2 incidents. Some of us have had the lift sensor on as well. This being said, we could try to put a Band Aid on the problem by spraying Anti Static spray  (better results) or even rubbing Bounce dryer sheets on the trolley handle (Top plastic handle, including the square metal arms going into the casing) Or  I'll be more than happy to disconnect my lift sensor and not have any wiring touch or be near the trolley handle for a permanent fix. After all, I  learned how to wheel on a KS16S with no lift sensor. @KingSong can you do some research on this topic and guide us on how to disconnect the lift sensor without terminating our warranty (even though the warranty means nothing)?  I'm pretty handy with tools coming from a technical aerospace background. At this point I'm willing to try anything now. Keep in mind, I keep reading, including myself that its perfectly riding good as long as we are not trolleying the wheel, well this is a wake up call! Static is a NO-JOKE, its eventually going to cause major electrical hardware damage to the point were one of us will eventually be getting hurt cause of the sudden cut off while riding! Hopefully when this happens we are not at max wheel speed! KingSong, ARE YOU LISTENING? By the way , my wheel is still under warranty but I still hear no contact from anyone  (KingSong/Seller) even though I notified my seller. This fix is just an assumption of what I believe what is happening here, hopefully a fix  is in the horizon? Be safe all.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Dave U

[US69]

20 hours ago, rolauk said:

Well - yes, all my three tests with this wheel happened when cold outside and heaters on inside. Yesterday was not very cold - and it happened after just 45 seconds. It could be related to this, but my other wheels does not, and have never - behaved like this. 

I dont know how i managed to do this...but yesterday overread your post and video and didn’t see it, Sorry.

Sorry for that bad experience.

Yes, please contact your seller..i .understand that you dont want to use it.

[rolauk]

Thank you for your feedback guys. Great that people are sharing their findings, too bad most people (including me) often come here when there are problems. Anyway - the snow is melting somewhat these days, and today I pushed my wheel around on my balcony for 15 minutes. I had no problems at all during this time, so yes - as several of you have mentioned - static charge seems to be very likely. @Dave U, you might be on to something. 

No matter what, this is a major design flaw that I hope we all can have fixed. 

As mentioned before - I guess this is an issue on all KS18L/XL wheels? Perhaps the conditions for this to happen has been met yet for those who hasnt experienced this?

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Dave U said:

I noticed in your video you are wearing socks while trolleying your wheel. In reality this is an excellent way to collect static build up from the carpet/rug and flooring that you are walking on. It took 45 seconds for the shaking to start which is in my opinion probably enough time for the static to build up. This also falls into my situation when it happened to me twice on the same day. It also took anywhere from a minute to 4 minutes  to build up a static charge inside the 2 different stores, I'm assuming. I'm going to state very strongly that we are giving an ESD through our bodies collecting this charge and then displacing the ESD through the Trolley handle which has metal screws underneath holding the plastic handle together, then traveling through the metal square tubes down to the lift sensors in which has electrical wiring attached leading to electrical components/hardware to produce this violent shaking. Electric static discharge can jump and not necessarily be in direct contact. I had my lift sensor off during my 2 incidents. Some of us have had the lift sensor on as well. This being said, we could try to put a Band Aid on the problem by spraying Anti Static spray  (better results) or even rubbing Bounce dryer sheets on the trolley handle (Top plastic handle, including the square metal arms going into the casing) Or  I'll be more than happy to disconnect my lift sensor and not have any wiring touch or be near the trolley handle for a permanent fix. After all, I  learned how to wheel on a KS16S with no lift sensor. @KingSong can you do some research on this topic and guide us on how to disconnect the lift sensor without terminating our warranty (even though the warranty means nothing)?  I'm pretty handy with tools coming from a technical aerospace background. At this point I'm willing to try anything now. Keep in mind, I keep reading, including myself that its perfectly riding good as long as we are not trolleying the wheel, well this is a wake up call! Static is a NO-JOKE, its eventually going to cause major electrical hardware damage to the point were one of us will eventually be getting hurt cause of the sudden cut off while riding! Hopefully when this happens we are not at max wheel speed! KingSong, ARE YOU LISTENING? By the way , my wheel is still under warranty but I still hear no contact from anyone  (KingSong/Seller) even though I notified my seller. This fix is just an assumption of what I believe what is happening here, hopefully a fix  is in the horizon? Be safe all.

I wonder if KS has considered eliminating metal parts from the trolley bars. I keep the lift sensor off. 

The great handle position allows me to trolley with the wheel off. This has prevented me from having any issues with trolleying the wheel, and the static induced shutdowns that many feel are the cause.  

Edited March 16, 2019 by Lutalo

[rolauk]

Another update - took my wheel out and drove off (in my car) to a place nearby where the snow is gone (at the moment) and tested the wheel some more. Pushed it around for 15 minutes - no issues. Felt brave and stepped on. Rode it around for about 40 minutes - worked just fine - no issues what so ever. This wheel is strong and truly great to ride.

So - I guess it is pretty certain that this is some static buildup that happen indoors. I guess it is not about some few wheels - but the design of the wheel itself. Those who have not had this issues has probably not met the right conditions when trolleying yet?

[Rama Douglas]

On a positive note (sort of), I was able to get in to the app and do a horizontal calibration on the first try! That's good news. Why it had to be calibrated, however, is a bit concerning. I hit a rock with the side of the wheel while on a dirt trail. Didn't see the rock and I was going less than 10mph. It basically pushed the wheel over to the side rather abruptly. I was able to maintain control, but it was a bit of a jolt to the right. Nothing as violent as my 22mph crash, though. After climbing a small hill after that, I realized the wheel really wanted to veer to the right. I thought maybe my foot position changed, but no, it was good. I immediately opened up the app to calibrate. It worked and returned back to normal. Anyone had this happen? I've never opened a wheel up, so I'm not privy on how the motor works, but it felt like a magnet was out of alignment. Weird. Again, the calibration seemed to fix it, but not sure if something internal was damaged, making it easier to happen later at an unexpected time. 😬

[Smoother]

15 minutes ago, Rama Douglas said:

I've never opened a wheel up, so I'm not privy on how the motor works, but it felt like a magnet was out of alignment.

There's no where for the magnets to go  On the inside there is a tiny air gap to the armature, and on the left and right there is just a millimeter or two gap to the motor shells. To either side they are wedged in tight with the other magnets.  If a magnet move out of place, you will hear a scraping noise.

I've never heard of a jolt knocking the calibration out of whack.  But I've filed that in my "things to check if there's a problem" folder.

[Smoother]

On 3/15/2019 at 7:42 PM, Seba said:

I've made such video, but for now it's in Polish only  I had to add an English translation some time ago, but always had something more important to do...  The problem with lift sensors is that they are tightened too much in factory, so software calibration doesn't help. Also telescopic element should have some play. Here is the Polish video, I hope to make an English dubbing this weekend. Most important things starts at 7:29:

 

That drop of silicone at the end (or thread lock where the bolt enters the trolley leg) is very important.  Vibration WILL loosen (EDIT or occasionally, tighten) that bolt without mechanical intervention

Edited March 30, 2019 by Smoother

[Rama Douglas]

28 minutes ago, Smoother said:

There's no where for the magnets to go  On the inside there is a tiny air gap to the armature, and on the left and right there is just a millimeter or two gap to the motor shells. To either side they are wedged in tight with the other magnets.  If a magnet move out of place, you will hear a scraping noise.

I've never heard of a jolt knocking the calibration out of whack.  But I've filed that in my "things to check if there's a problem" folder.

Yes very weird, and thank you for your wisdom. The good news, is that after calibration, the wheel was back to running a lot smoother, @Smoother...😜

Edited March 16, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[rolauk]

Yesterday after testing my wheel, I tried to log on with the app to see what distance I rode, but was unable to connect. I did not have time to keep trying, but gave it another shot today. I am not able to. When starting the wheel, a male voice says "bluetooth is connected" and then a womans voice saying "blatooth is off". What does this mean? When testing the wheel outside, I set the alarms very low to see how the tiltback works, and then I had a womans voice telling me to slow down in "chineese" (I think). I was able to connect with the app (IOS, app named "Kingsong-New", not the newer "Kingsong_New" that is all in chineese. I turned off bluetooth and music, and only had beeps instead. I was able to connect again (but very unstable) to read my speed and so on. 

I also tried using the app called Darknessbot, and sometimes I see my wheel - but then it dissappears before I can connect. So - I believe bluetooth is not really turned off, right? If it was turned off - is there a way to turn it on again? Like, triple press the powerbutton or something? 

I guess there could be some kind of disturbance around where I live, but I can connect to other things with bluetooth just fine - even my Gotway wheel, and my Ninebot. 

Update: Took the wheel outside, pushed it for a couple of minutes - tried to connect, turn bluetooth of and on (on my phone), no other bluetooth devices around - could not find the wheel at all. And - now, there is only a woman saying "blatooth is off" - the male voice is not there anymore (where has he gone)....

No wheel is perfect (yet), but if these issues would have been fixed, it would be very close. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by rolauk
Update

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, rolauk said:

male voice says "bluetooth is connected" and then a womans voice saying "blatooth is off".

They must be a husband and a wife.

If you have connected earlier with Darknessbot, the app may be running in the background and trying to connect automatically when you turn on the wheel. Only one connection is permitted at a time. I’d try next to force-quit Darknessbot (or disconnect the wheel from within Darknessbot), and then launch and try to connect with the KS app.

[rolauk]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

They must be a husband and a wife.

If you have connected earlier with Darknessbot, the app may be running in the background and trying to connect automatically when you turn on the wheel. Only one connection is permitted at a time. I’d try next to force-quit Darknessbot (or disconnect the wheel from within Darknessbot), and then launch and try to connect with the KS app.

That must be it :-)

Tried force-quit several times, but that did not help. How come I had a ladys voice as alert when going over my set speed? I could not understand a word of what she was saying. Weird stuff. I even rebooted my phone just now, no help either. I heard the males voice one time - and from then on, only the woman (when powering on). Can not see the wheel anymore, I dont get it. Not with Kingsong app and not with Darknessbot either.

Is there a way to reset this, besides unplugging the batteries?

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, rolauk said:

Is there a way to reset this, besides unplugging the batteries?

The new app likely also has a ”Reset to factory defaults” option, but it doesn’t help you much. I’m sorry, short of powering the wheel on at different moments (before BT, before launching app, just after launching app, etc), I’m out of ideas. I hope you’ll get in eventually!

Edited March 17, 2019 by mrelwood

[Seba]

8 hours ago, rolauk said:

When starting the wheel, a male voice says "bluetooth is connected" and then a womans voice saying "blatooth is off".

It's because there are two separate Bluetooth links in each KS wheel. One is Bluetooth Low Energy (so called Bluetooth Smart) - it is responsible for connection with you app and when connected to the app, says "Bluetooth is connected". Second one is standard Bluetooth connection for audio. In your (and also mine) wheel it's disabled, so the "Blooototh is offfff" message.

BLE connection (the one that is used by the app) sometimes works unreliable. But I found that if you don't give the app all the permissions it needs, there are problems with BLE connection. In general original app is a piece of shit, but sometimes it is needed to change some settings. One important thing is that in case of BLE connection you don't pair your smartphone with device like with "regular" Bluetooth devices. To be more verbose:

• If you want to connect app to the wheel you don't use regular Bluetooth pairing. Instead you just search your wheel in the app. It's similar to other BLE devices like heart rate sensors etc.
• If you want to use wheel speakers, you have to pair them first with your smartphone as in case of any Bluetooth audio device. Of course BT audio must be enabled in wheel settings.

I see it's common problem, mostly due shitty KS app.

[-Sidekick-]

7 hours ago, rolauk said:

Can not see the wheel anymore, I dont get it. Not with Kingsong app and not with Darknessbot 

Sounds familiar 

Maybe this helps

[rolauk]

Yes, I turned bluetooth off in the app so that I would not have to listen to the woman speaking in chineese, telling me to slow down (I think). That womans voice audio appeared after that (I think). Perhaps that why I cant find it as an audio source anymore either? Guess so. But - still no luck connecting to it. Weird if it is only the app, because I had no problem finding and connecting to it before yesterday. It was unstable, yes - but I could just connect again. Now, I only see the wheel one of every ten time I test - and only in the Darknessbot app. I managed to connect - got two beeps - but then it disconnected again, and I could not connect again. Aaargh. Luckilly I did switch from the 10km/h speed setting I was testing at first. 

I will give it another try with a friends android phone and see if that works, later. 

Anybody knows how to get the male voice in english instead of chineese lady - for the speed alerts? If possible at all? Did not see any settings for this while the app was working. The newest app for IOS is unusable for me as I dont speak chineese. I could not get that to connect either, but do not know what to press either. 

Also tried reinstalling the kingsong-new app - but still same, same. 

Cant say that I am happy with this purchase. I started with Ninebot One E+, and this is my fifth wheel. Never spent this much money on a wheel before, and never had this many issues either. But - my seller will have to fix this or give me my money back. 

[AtlantaGuy]

This is a long shot, but worth a try (if you haven’t tried it already)... Go to the main settings for your iPhone and then turn off Bluetooth for your iPhone for a minute, then turn it on again. Sometimes when I use unstable iPhone apps with Bluetooth, that helps with connection issues. I’ve even had to power down my iPhone completely, and then restart it, in order to reconnect to devices that have poorly designed apps. 

[rolauk]

Thank you, but tried that already. I will try with another device (android phone) later today. :-)