!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[Mono]

7 hours ago, Lutalo said:

The pressure is ultimately they may start to seem incapable of solving the problems that arise with their wheels

This conclusion I have drawn already a long time ago based on the lack of solving much simpler engineering problems than this one. But then, even Chinese engineers are after all only humans, aren't they, and that's no secret either 

[Lutalo]

17 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

So I disabled the lift sensor, and I only trolley it and/or lift the wheel in the off position.

Me too 👍

[US69]

On 3/10/2019 at 10:54 PM, Jason McNeil said:

I've been in frequent contact with Tina about shuddering while trolley issue. Here are the essential facts that I have so far:

1. The shuddering only happens while trolley, not riding
2. King Song produced a version of the PCB with 4 layers of fiber-glass to try to make it more immune from static. Two Customers who have had their boards changed to this other type, have had repeated episodes (2 out of 2), implying the culprit is not with the controller. 
3. It seems completely random, may be fine for days-weeks, then go into this this haywire mode when trolleying. 
4. Among the small sample set, about 5 reported cases in 150x Wheels; there is some evidence to suggest there might be a connection with the firmware version—it's quite possible the behaviour was inadvertently introduced in a later release.

Obviously the issue remains a top priority, but there is some assurance in the low statistical likelihood & that there does not seem to be any significant ride safety consideration.  

 

I would like to add some points to what Jason has said.....

1.) Yes, up to date there is NOT ONE failure known that happened while riding....It only happens when trolleying and your feet are on the ground, as the problem has been proved to come from build up static energy while the wheel is trolleyed.

I have seen video where the failure was reproduced...one of the first solutions was to insert a tape/film into the wheel, which -shorlty before delivering this- has been detected not to work a 100% ...and so better solutions where tried to find!

2.) yes, latest board type is 4-layered, to protect against this static energy build up. 

I dont even know if these new boards are allready out in the wild, to MY knowledge on this boards the failure havent happen again and KS has not been able to reproduce it at all with that boards.

3/4.) Yes, this failure is random, and most important...still more than seldom. I can assure you that for example in Germany this is a total unknown case.....hmmm, ok, not exactly, as it happened on my 18L once!! in its 900km i have done with it (on about km 550)  started a shaking when i was trolleying it through my local supermarket, and leaned it on a wall, on the first warm day this year. It shaked once...and ever since it never happend again.

So to sum it up:

KS is taking that as serious as it is even possible! They know that in the EUC market reliability and saftey is a much needed thing, and one of the major key elements why people (and me too, for example) buy Kingsongs. They definitly do NOT want to loose that image of their brand!

Nonetheless, the fact that this failure is that very seldom and rare (3-5%) and even if happening, then really only doing so when trolleying, it was taken into consideration that it is No real security threat. And so only owners that have this failure happening more than once can and should contact their sellers to find a a solution or a possible board change. 

From a personal view:

I am here for about 3plus years...and i would not have taken the „rep“ to any other Company. In my view KS is trying the best to react, help AND be open about  the problems, like no other manufacter is. I just would like to remind on how -much, much more serious- incidents with other brands and their reaction to this was.....which was just hiding and never ever giving  ANY statement at all.

What i want to say is: I can reflect a bit about how and whats happening...and if i would have the smallest doubt that KS isnt handling this as good as they can, i would go back to moderating here and quit beeing the rep for them.

 

So i can only offer:

Who ever has specific problems, i am open to PM‘s alltime, that is the best way i can guarantee an answer in a short time!

Unfortunatly -or fortunatly- the EUC world has become that big and there are so much KS groups and forums, that it is hard to react to each and every thread, so bare with me, when i need some time for an answer in the forums :-)

 

@tinawong

@Jason McNeil

[Dave U]

6 hours ago, US69 said:

owners that have this failure happening more than once can and should contact their sellers to find a a solution or a possible board change. 

In my case it happened more than one time, twice on the same day. I emailed the seller to notify him of what had happened back on January 31, 2019. I'm still waiting for a response /answer? They are fast to sell me two wheels (KS16S & KS18L) but not quite as fast or should I say none responsive on faulty wheels.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Dave U

[Smoother]

4 hours ago, Dave U said:

In my case it happened more than one time, twice on the same day. I emailed the seller to notify him of what had happened back on January 31, 2019. I'm still waiting for a response /answer? They are fast to sell me two wheels (KS16S & KS18L) but not quite as fast or should I say none responsive on faulty wheels.

Who was your reseller? people should know who to deal with, and who not to. And a little public shaming can sometimes really speed up customer service.

[Circuitmage]

 

Just to prove out my rider after the controller replacement (even with another vibration incident at still within a few days)...I rode mine for 12 miles hard last weekend, temperature on board hit 56/57C and fan was on when I got back. No issues. Does still appear to just be a trolly/non-riding issue. Even with the second speed lock still on after controller replacement (25mph)...this thing is a beast.

 

[rolauk]

Does this vibration only happen indoors, when pushed around with the trolley? Never when pushed outside? And - never when ridden? 

I havent touched my wheel the last few days. I tried to provoke this behaviour again, but was unable to. Guess it happens when least expected. I have two burnmarks that I can not remove completely on the floor inside, cant have any more of those.

[rolauk]

Could it be that this static behavior (or whatever causes the shaking) affects all wheels, but those who has NOT had this problem, has not used the wheel indoors (in spesific conditions)? Perhaps I would not have experienced this either if it was no snow outside - I would definently ride outside instead. 

[Rama Douglas]

3 hours ago, rolauk said:

Could it be that this static behavior (or whatever causes the shaking) affects all wheels, but those who has NOT had this problem, has not used the wheel indoors (in spesific conditions)? Perhaps I would not have experienced this either if it was no snow outside - I would definently ride outside instead. 

My guess is that to those it's happened to (myself included), and based on it being due to static electricity, I would venture to say that it will only happen in conditions where there's a build up of static energy. People who live close to or in humid areas, will most likely be clear of these issues. I do live in Los Angeles and the humidity varies greatly depending on whether or not we have an on-shore flow, or wind from the East which we call Santa Annas. The day it happened to me was on a very dry day with Santa Anna winds from the East. My pants were clinging to my legs and the air was very staticly charged. 

This being said, if Kingsong is having difficulty re-creating the issue in order to come up with a solid resolution, my guess is that their testers are doing this in mainland China where it is humid...Just my guess, but I would like to hear from others in this thread who have had the issue as to what the weather was like when it occurred. My guess: dry weather which has more of a static charge in the air. Hope this is helpful...

[Dave U]

1 hour ago, Rama Douglas said:

I would like to hear from others in this thread who have had the issue as to what the weather was like when it occurred. My guess: dry weather which has more of a static charge in the air. Hope this is helpful...

I also live in Los Angels county (City of Covina). The weather was at 79°F & dry at the time of my 2 occurrences on January 27, 2019 @ 1:20pm. Both incidents happened inside stores. I'm wondering now if having Bluetooth on/connected has anything to do with these violent vibrations? I had 3 apps (Kingsong, Pandora & Runtastic) running at the time. I'm also curious of other incidents happening outside or inside a building were electrical elements are around (WI FI, Bluetooth, ect..) or even floor carpet at stores or your own home? Next time I trolley my wheel inside stores, I'll be turning off Bluetooth to see what happens?

[MacPara]

If it's really static electricity, I should see a lot of these lockups in a few months when our rel. humidity hits single digits again. Then again, I rarely walk my wheel and I'm not a fan of malls either, so we'll see.

[Mono]

Or maybe it happens only on very smooth surfaces?

[Dave U]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

Or maybe it happens only on very smooth surfaces?

One of the stores was Lowes with smooth flooring the other store was CVS with carpeted floor.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Dave U

[rolauk]

Ok, check this out. Pushing the wheel inside for 45 seconds - finally got it on camera. This wheel is going back (brand new, never used outside). This time the whole unit tilted back a little and was difficult to turn off. I was unfortunate and pressed the stop button on the camera as I tried to shut the wheel off. But you can see the whole ride right here...

 

[kasenutty]

Wow, that is pretty freaky. How did you survive it? (Asking for a friend  ) Did you pick it up until it cut off or hit the power really quick? How did that end? 

[rolauk]

Yes, scary as shit, this is violent stuff. I threw myself into cover and waited for it to calm down - no, I shut it off with the button, but it took a few second for it to respond (and difficult to actually hit the button because of this behavior. So - all is well, but this is not a wheel I am going to use. Very sad. :-(

Edit: And a new fat mark on the floor. Third one. Im not turning this on again. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by rolauk

[Thai-lad]

What was the weather like?  Cold outside with heaters running indoors, leading to low relative humidity?

[rolauk]

8 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

What was the weather like?  Cold outside with heaters running indoors, leading to low relative humidity?

Well - yes, all my three tests with this wheel happened when cold outside and heaters on inside. Yesterday was not very cold - and it happened after just 45 seconds. It could be related to this, but my other wheels does not, and have never - behaved like this. 

[FlyboyEUC]

Today at 5:45 am on my way to work I came to a stop light. typically I dismount but today i just grabbed a nearby street sign and started idling slowly. I heard the familiar "Beep Beep" of the wheel disengaging and it did just that while I was on it. If I hadn't been holding on the the street sign, I would have for sure fallen (still did kinda). It took me a couple shakes of the wheel to re-engage. I then made it back to work. Has that ever happened to anyone while on the wheel? @Jason McNeil 

I'd like to keep the sensor on (convenient) and I'm sure that the wheel can only disengage when not in motion like with the power switch, but if it turns off while i'm at a stop light often, that's a little dangerous. Been riding (this 18XL) for 6 days. I've also heard of people adjusting/calibrating the lift sensor, what does this do? Is there a video on it?

[Thai-lad]

2 hours ago, rolauk said:

Well - yes, all my three tests with this wheel happened when cold outside and heaters on inside. Yesterday was not very cold - and it happened after just 45 seconds. It could be related to this, but my other wheels does not, and have never - behaved like this. 

So it COULD actually be static electricity related, since having the heat on indoors will lower relative humidity.  Has it happened to anyone outdoors on a rainy day?

[Rama Douglas]

3 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Today at 5:45 am on my way to work I came to a stop light. typically I dismount but today i just grabbed a nearby street sign and started idling slowly. I heard the familiar "Beep Beep" of the wheel disengaging and it did just that while I was on it. If I hadn't been holding on the the street sign, I would have for sure fallen (still did kinda). It took me a couple shakes of the wheel to re-engage. I then made it back to work. Has that ever happened to anyone while on the wheel? @Jason McNeil 

I'd like to keep the sensor on (convenient) and I'm sure that the wheel can only disengage when not in motion like with the power switch, but if it turns off while i'm at a stop light often, that's a little dangerous. Been riding (this 18XL) for 6 days. I've also heard of people adjusting/calibrating the lift sensor, what does this do? Is there a video on it?

Yeah, man. I suggest disabling the lift sensor feature. Sucks, I know... Unfortunately, it seems KS has not thought their engineering through very well on this and their trolley design. Since disabling lift sensor and trolleying with the wheel off, I've had zero issues. Still waiting to hear if they are going to resolve any of these issues. Something fair, I believe, would be to credit back a small portion of the cost of the wheel. The total price of $2,150 should be discounted down to around $1,800-$1,900 at Most, in my honest opinion! And again, anyone at KS listening? What good are those (awesome) features, if they cannot be used safely and reliably?!? Those features are unfortunately useless if they can't be reliably used. The wheel performs extremely well under normal riding circumstances, but the other features are worthless, if not safe, and compensation should be done to all of us with these issues occuring, if say a firmware fix is not in place by like a couple of weeks ago. I mean, seriously! This is the most popular thread on the Kingsong section of the forum. Their claims of this affecting a low percentage of wheels, is hogwash. This thread is 30 long pages deep now. A few hundred dollars credited back, or a fix asap, would perhaps restore my faith in KS as a company. Everyone keeps saying they're taking it seriously, but still no solutions or resolutions. Again, I love the wheel, but I'll gladly go with Gotway and Inmotion as next wheels if Kingsong doesn't address all this SOON! Anyone agree? A few hundred bucks is what I would value the "features" that can't be reliably and safely used. For some of us, shelling out $2,150 is no easy task, and we expect all the features to work safely...

Edited March 15, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[US69]

3 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Today at 5:45 am on my way to work I came to a stop light. typically I dismount but today i just grabbed a nearby street sign and started idling slowly. I heard the familiar "Beep Beep" of the wheel disengaging and it did just that while I was on it. If I hadn't been holding on the the street sign, I would have for sure fallen (still did kinda). It took me a couple shakes of the wheel to re-engage. I then made it back to work. Has that ever happened to anyone while on the wheel? @Jason McNeil 

I'd like to keep the sensor on (convenient) and I'm sure that the wheel can only disengage when not in motion like with the power switch, but if it turns off while i'm at a stop light often, that's a little dangerous. Been riding (this 18XL) for 6 days. I've also heard of people adjusting/calibrating the lift sensor, what does this do? Is there a video on it?

The "shake/Freeze" Problem mainly reported in this thread has Nothing todo with the handle sensor…And a definitly NO, this shake/freeze Problem has never ever occured while riding, just while trolleying!

 

The Problem you had sounded like a unfortunatly very bad calibrated handle sensor which engaged while you stand/idled at the street sign. Sorry for that bad experience!

For the handle sensor: Yes, it should only works/switches when the Wheel does not move,.....

So For having the handle sensor working perfectly, and only engaging when really Lifting up the Wheel, a calibration of the handle sensor is needed and advised. Just lean your powered on Wheel (trolley down) at a wall, so that it is Standing upright. Then choose the handle sensor calibration Point/menu in the app and start the calibration process.

As soon as you start the calibration process(press "Confirm"), the Wheel starts to Beep 5 times….do Nothing while this first 5 beeps!!! Just let the Wheel stand there and hold it down by Pressing it to the Ground...than, after this first 5 Beeps a double Beep Comes up...Now you lift the Wheel off the Ground by carrying it with the handle (just lift it up!)….Do this lift up while it Beeps another 5 times. Then a double Beep will appear again, set the Wheel to the Ground again, Ready...

Test the handle sensor after this...if it works like you will exspect, otherwise repeat calibration, until it only engages when you really lift up the Wheel... 

Edited March 15, 2019 by US69

[US69]

@Flyboy10

Unfortunatly i dont find the calibration Video that is Floating around. I hope my description is good enough, ,otherwise hit me up by PM and i will record a vid myself.

 

[FlyboyEUC]

2 hours ago, US69 said:

Unfortunatly i dont find the calibration Video that is Floating around. I hope my description is good enough, ,otherwise hit me up by PM and i will record a vid myself.

I think I understand. I'll do it when I get home. Don't want my coworkers thinking a bomb is going off... 💣💥

[Seba]

6 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

I then made it back to work. Has that ever happened to anyone while on the wheel?

Yest, but it's completely different thing - lift sensors need tensioning alignment and/or calibration.