Circuitmage Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) The good news: I tried to duplicate what I did 3 times, indoors only, and was unable to. It appears to be one of those isolated incidents so far. I reported this to my vendor and they are shipping me a new controller board. The bad news: I got back from work last night and took a closer look at it. From the drop , my wheel in otherwise very good condition now has new scars down the front of it, and the front port cover broke off from the fall. I was able to find the cover outside. It was quite a violent jerk out of my hands , so understandable it suffered some injury. Edited January 31, 2019 by Circuitmage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Circuitmage said: The good news: I tried to duplicate what I did 3 times, indoors only, and was unable to. It appears to be one of those isolated incidents so far. I reported this to my vendor and they are shipping me a new controller board. The bad news: I got back from work last night and took a closer look at it. From the drop , my wheel in otherwise very good condition now has new scars down the front of it, and the front port cover broke off from the fall. I was able to find the cover outside. It was quite a violent jerk out of my hands , so understandable it suffered some injury. Time to vinyl wrap it. 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuitmage Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I checked into those wraps...several $$$ . I will use a black perm marker :). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave U Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Carried over from my original posting on 1/28/19 from @Dave U Went out for a city ride on Sunday 1/2719. When i raised the trolley and started walking the wheel for several minutes, it went into a vicious vibration (out of control)! , luckily i was able to turn the wheel off. I restarted it and it rode fine. Second time I pulled the trolley out and started to roll, it started again after 2 minutes of trolleying, just as the first time. Has anyone experience this on their KS18L or any other wheel? Should i stop riding it? it seems to be good when the trolley is not out. I forgot to mention both occurrences happened inside large stores. I tried to reenact the situation outside but all was good. Sounds like the same problem as the wheel lock up on early KS18L inside stores due to high electrical elements and or static discharge, but this time with out of control vibrations. Additional notes: KS18L delivered in Sept. 2018, 1.11 update, now has 460 miles, lift sensor was off during both incidents, i rode the wheel after the first incident for 2 miles and after the second incident rode again for an additional 4 miles. Tried to duplicate several times outside with no success. No beeps at all, after trolleying for a few minutes it gave me a few seconds ( 2-4 seconds of light vibration) of warning that the violent shaking will start. The wheel has 460 miles with 1.11 update. Both times it happened inside large stores. I tried duplicating outside with no results. Seems to ride good, but i'm a little hesitant to go fast now. Edited January 31, 2019 by Dave U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Circuitmage said: I checked into those wraps...several $$$ . I will use a black perm marker :). Which wraps did you check into? They are not at all expensive. Some brands like Avery or Hexis can get pricey. New releases can also be pricey sometimes. They are sold by the amount/size. You won't need any more than a 60" X 72" roll. You won't actually need nearly that much. That's the amount I buy to have extra in case I drop the wheel and, have to Rewrap a section to restore it's appearance. A roll of vinyl the size I mentioned can be had for $40 - $80 depending on brand and finish type. I recommend Vvivid or Teckwrap. Solid wraps, great colors, fairly easy to work with. Edited January 31, 2019 by Lutalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dave U said: lift sensor was off during both incidents, i rode the wheel after the first incident for 2 miles and after the second incident rode again for an additional 4 miles So, you say that your lift sensor was off. Interesting 🤔🤔🤔. Perhaps me keeping the sensor off is merely a psychological comfort. Perhaps there is absolutely no connection between the lift sensor and lock-up. Without a definitive answer from Kingsong comfort and forum speculations are what I have. My Mother always said that the first mind is superior and the one I should follow because it doesn't need a reason to know something. I'm listening to Momdukes on this one, and following my first mind until KS provides a reason to know different. Edited January 31, 2019 by Lutalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuitmage Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) I have another idea about these vibrations and possibly lock ups. Just throwing this out there, as it is purely speculation based on my experience and observations. Going with my idea that this a controller PID routine issue, it could be that these wheels use the "true, tried and tested" routine for controlling the wheel while moving (quickly)...which means they're fine to ride. And, if you accept the fact that the at-still state is more difficult to control than the "while-moving" then it could be something as simple as the handles giving extra leverage to the wheel , causing an increase in movement off the center axis. In other words, the "at-still" state has certain expectations for the limits of movement from the still state. If you exceed that (leverage from long handles could cause this), then it may exaggerate the difficulty of maintaining balance and throw the unit into an unknown state. Evidence for this comes from A) My 16S had severe vibration when it hit slow speed. Something in the control board was causing this as it was fixed with replacement, however this still could be indicative of the difficulties in maintaining the speed state at slow speed, B).Both of my 18L lock ups were at similar locations, with the handle fully extended. I suspect I was moving it rapidly while trollying. Trollying is a slow speed activity, however having the handle extended may be putting the machine in some "other than riding" condition with excessive leaning. and C) My vibration issue happened after the wheel was sitting perfectly still for at least 30 seconds and I quickly grabbed it to move. Again, a similar situation. This CAN be tested. When I tried to duplicate my vibrations I had the handle down, and was simply pushing the wheel around in a state it should be comfortable with. I will try to duplicate this vibration by extending the handle and pushing the wheel outside it's comfort zone (probably leaning it more rapidly and in different directions as I move it). It is my supposition this is a known issue at KS and if I am able to duplicate it in this manner it will at least give some insight as to what is going on. Edited February 1, 2019 by Circuitmage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Circuitmage said: .Both of my 18L lock ups were at similar locations, with the handle fully extended. I suspect I was moving it rapidly while trollying. Trollying is a slow speed activity, however having the handle extended may be putting the machine in some "other than riding" I know you said you were just spit balling this idea. Here's something that might help clarify your thoughts. This quote is from @KujiRolls when I asked him where his trolley handle went." "haha you noticed the missing KS trolley handle... I didnt mention it because i didnt think it was a fair thing to say. After i took them on the 50m dash i was riding back home on the MSX and trolleying the 18XL by my side at speed. I smashed into a speed bump and lost control the 18XL with the handle extended. No surprise what happened next. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuitmage Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Ok, so maybe not a slow speed activity for some people. So, I spent about 20 minutes jerking my wheel around, without and with the handle extended. I did 5 tries, recycling power, moving unit, letting it sit for 30 seconds, then moving it quickly like I did last week. Both without and with the handle extended. I could not get it to repeat the freak out. I then geared up and took it for a 10 mile ride. No problems. I dunno... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 16 minutes ago, Circuitmage said: Ok, so maybe not a slow speed activity for some people. So, I spent about 20 minutes jerking my wheel around, without and with the handle extended. I did 5 tries, recycling power, moving unit, letting it sit for 30 seconds, then moving it quickly like I did last week. Both without and with the handle extended. I could not get it to repeat the freak out. I then geared up and took it for a 10 mile ride. No problems. I dunno... Nothing more annoying than an intermittent fault. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 15 hours ago, Circuitmage said: So, I spent about 20 minutes jerking my wheel around, without and with the handle extended. I did 5 tries, recycling power, moving unit, letting it sit for 30 seconds, then moving it quickly like I did last week. Both without and with the handle extended. I could not get it to repeat the freak out. My wheel "sneezes" occasionally when trollying- a low-amplitude vibration lasting under a second. But this isn't too surprising- a control loop for something meant to have a big ol' 180+lb weight damping any vibrations, suddenly running with just the wheel (and weight near the center of mass)? I don't think it's related to the lockups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuitmage Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 After changing the tube and controller on my 18L last weekend, riding 14km on 12mph speed lock, then about 1 mile of 25mph....I go to lift it out of my car last night, turn it on and it goes into about 4 seconds of violent vibrations. After power reset it seems to work fine, but this can't be good. Just posting this here (already informed seller) , don't know if it is the exact same thing as the lock-ups which were of greater concern, but it seems related as it is a "trolly mode" issue. It seems to run for miles just fine. A whole lotta shakin goin on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, Circuitmage said: After changing the tube and controller on my 18L last weekend, riding 14km on 12mph speed lock, then about 1 mile of 25mph....I go to lift it out of my car last night, turn it on and it goes into about 4 seconds of violent vibrations. After power reset it seems to work fine, but this can't be good. Just posting this here (already informed seller) , don't know if it is the exact same thing as the lock-ups which were of greater concern, but it seems related as it is a "trolly mode" issue. It seems to run for miles just fine. A whole lotta shakin goin on. A shaking problem that they can't seem to shake . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that0n3guy Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I had mine do the shaking thing right after I got off it the other day. I rode it for like 30 sec and was just stopping, I bent over to grab the handle and it started. Zero trolleying involved. I have a new control board and I'll see how that goes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacPara Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) On 3/1/2019 at 9:41 AM, Circuitmage said: After changing the tube and controller on my 18L last weekend, riding 14km on 12mph speed lock, then about 1 mile of 25mph....I go to lift it out of my car last night, turn it on and it goes into about 4 seconds of violent vibrations. After power reset it seems to work fine, but this can't be good. Just posting this here (already informed seller) , don't know if it is the exact same thing as the lock-ups which were of greater concern, but it seems related as it is a "trolly mode" issue. It seems to run for miles just fine. A whole lotta shakin goin on. Did your wheel have the FW update that should have caused it to shut down when running into that shaking problem? Edited March 4, 2019 by MacPara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuitmage Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 @MacPara Yes, After I installed the new Controller I go the "Update FW" notice on the KS app. When I clicked on it, it said I was already at 1.11. So still not sure if that is what reset the wheel or me holding down on the power button (that was not responsive for several seconds). Also, surprising news....my seller has informed me I am getting a new motor! Kind of mixed feelings with this since I have had over 1300 miles of rides and all of my issues have been at rest while I'm not on the wheel or in trolley mode. But, word is the motor is now suspect, so we will see if this is a fix. Guess I will be doing some more HW change out soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 29 minutes ago, Circuitmage said: But, word is the motor is now suspect, so we will see if this is a fix. I think they suspect that the Hall sensor may be faulty/misaligned. This may be the cause for shaking and it really make sense. As Hall sensor is the part of the motor assembly, they probably want to replace whole motor assembly. Good decision IMO. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolauk Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 On 1/31/2019 at 10:59 PM, Dave U said: Carried over from my original posting on 1/28/19 from @Dave U Went out for a city ride on Sunday 1/2719. When i raised the trolley and started walking the wheel for several minutes, it went into a vicious vibration (out of control)! , luckily i was able to turn the wheel off. I restarted it and it rode fine. Second time I pulled the trolley out and started to roll, it started again after 2 minutes of trolleying, just as the first time. Has anyone experience this on their KS18L or any other wheel? Should i stop riding it? it seems to be good when the trolley is not out. I forgot to mention both occurrences happened inside large stores. I tried to reenact the situation outside but all was good. Sounds like the same problem as the wheel lock up on early KS18L inside stores due to high electrical elements and or static discharge, but this time with out of control vibrations. Additional notes: KS18L delivered in Sept. 2018, 1.11 update, now has 460 miles, lift sensor was off during both incidents, i rode the wheel after the first incident for 2 miles and after the second incident rode again for an additional 4 miles. Tried to duplicate several times outside with no success. No beeps at all, after trolleying for a few minutes it gave me a few seconds ( 2-4 seconds of light vibration) of warning that the violent shaking will start. The wheel has 460 miles with 1.11 update. Both times it happened inside large stores. I tried duplicating outside with no results. Seems to ride good, but i'm a little hesitant to go fast now. Hello guys. I just received my brand new KS18XL last week. Have not ridden the wheel yet, but only tested it inside. Yesterday it went into a hard shake that left a fat mark on my doorstep. I did not know what happened, but I turned it off right away. When turned on again, it was fine. I hoped it was a "one-time-thing" and did not dare to think I had to ship back my long awaited wheel. But - today when showing my wheel to a friend, it startet this violent shake again (while trolleying) and left a new fat mark on my livingroom floor. Shut it off again - ok when turned on. I dont like this at all. Im afraid of using this wheel now. I have had several wheeels before and none of them ever did something like this. I tried to document it with my camera, but I can not make it do this when I try to....:( When pushing the wheel with the trolley back and forth (slowly) I can kind of feel small shakes as I shift directions. But - nothing like this. It feels nervous somehow. What to do? :-( My wheel was shipped with firmware 1.11 and there is no update. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rama Douglas Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 3 hours ago, rolauk said: Hello guys. I just received my brand new KS18XL last week. Have not ridden the wheel yet, but only tested it inside. Yesterday it went into a hard shake that left a fat mark on my doorstep. I did not know what happened, but I turned it off right away. When turned on again, it was fine. I hoped it was a "one-time-thing" and did not dare to think I had to ship back my long awaited wheel. But - today when showing my wheel to a friend, it startet this violent shake again (while trolleying) and left a new fat mark on my livingroom floor. Shut it off again - ok when turned on. I dont like this at all. Im afraid of using this wheel now. I have had several wheeels before and none of them ever did something like this. I tried to document it with my camera, but I can not make it do this when I try to....:( When pushing the wheel with the trolley back and forth (slowly) I can kind of feel small shakes as I shift directions. But - nothing like this. It feels nervous somehow. What to do? :-( My wheel was shipped with firmware 1.11 and there is no update. Well, I didn't get the violent shaking everyone is describing, but I did have issues with it while trolleying. So I disabled the lift sensor, and I only trolley it and/or lift the wheel in the off position. No problems since. Also, the app sucks, so once you get through all the unlocks you'll need to, I suggest doing as I have. Don't use the app, trolley with it off, and disable lift sensor. Sucks, I know, but what are we to do?!? We're obviously beta testers for these wheel manufacturers. My hope is that they'll address all these issues and do the right thing and recall or fix all of this. Hopefully they can do it all with firmware, but if not, Kingsong, are you listening? We have all shelled out top dollar for your amazing wheel. Too many people are having this issue, and while I do love my XL, if you don't address these issues and fix it, you will not see another dollar of mine. I'll happily go with a more reliably built wheel from another manufacturer. Again, I'm ok personally not using the trolley function while on, but man, for all the bells and whistles this wheel is supposed to have and the amount you're charging, you really owe your customer base a huge apology, a recall or fix for all wheels with this problem(s), plus monetary compensation for failing to deliver on all the advertised "advancements". My 2 cents. Don't get me wrong, as I love my wheel and it's riding capability/range, etc, but when you fall way short on delivering on the "best trolley handle" (which cannot reliably be used), a buggy lift sensor, and damages being caused to people's person, and property as a direct result of poor manufacturing/faulty engineering, then I hate to say it but a huge class action lawsuit is in order. I suggest @tinawong, Ulf and others at KS please stop beating around the bush with these issues, as your company's reputation and future is at stake here with all these problems. It's only a matter of time before a lawsuit is filled against the company. I believe it is highly unfair to the vendors like @Jason McNeil, and others to have to deal with near everyone's problems here with the XL. Anyone know any good international attorneys? Again, don't take this as threatening, but rather, a sincere call to action, for both your customer base, and the future of the Kingsong brand... Please address this as it seems to be happening to most riders... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jason McNeil Posted March 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Rama Douglas said: My hope is that they'll address all these issues and do the right thing and recall or fix all of this. Hopefully they can do it all with firmware, but if not, Kingsong, are you listening? I've been in frequent contact with Tina about shuddering while trolley issue. Here are the essential facts that I have so far: The shuddering only happens while trolley, not riding King Song produced a version of the PCB with 4 layers of fiber-glass to try to make it more immune from static. Two Customers who have had their boards changed to this other type, have had repeated episodes (2 out of 2), implying the culprit is not with the controller. It seems completely random, may be fine for days-weeks, then go into this this haywire mode when trolleying. Among the small sample set, about 5 reported cases in 150x Wheels; there is some evidence to suggest there might be a connection with the firmware version—it's quite possible the behaviour was inadvertently introduced in a later release. Obviously the issue remains a top priority, but there is some assurance in the low statistical likelihood & that there does not seem to be any significant ride safety consideration. Edited March 11, 2019 by Jason McNeil 5 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolauk Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Yep - that video shows exactly what is happening to my wheel. I was telling my friend about KingSong and told him this is of the top quality wheels - and then this happened. Wow - did I feel like an idiot. Well, perhaps it is possible to ride this wheel safe - but this is totally not acceptable on one of the most costly wheel on the market. I sure hope this is something that can be fixed with a firmware update. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) Looks like an undamped feedback loop, which naturally disappears when the rider mass is added. In this case it most likely falls under the category annoying but at least harmless. Edited March 10, 2019 by Mono 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai-lad Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Looks like an intermittent problem which may or may not be controller or firmware related. Seems like the static electric diagnosis was incorrect. While it has so far not been reported to happen while riding, it seems quite possible it might occur to someone standing stationary on the wheel while, for example, waiting at a crosswalk. Which could throw them into the path of a motor vehicle. So I won't be buying this wheel. Unfortunate, as in all other respects it seems a great choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Thai-lad said: Looks like an intermittent problem which may or may not be controller or firmware related. Seems like the static electric diagnosis was incorrect. Unsurprisingly. 3 minutes ago, Thai-lad said: While it has so far not been reported to happen while riding, it seems quite possible it might occur to someone standing stationary on the wheel while, for example, waiting at a crosswalk. Not very likely either. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) The statistically low occurrence is primarily assurance for the manufacturer, as opposed to the consumer. The consumer's reasoning is likely to be: 1. this could happen to me. 2. Just because it hasn't happened a lot doesn't mean that the frequency of the event will not increase. 3. If it could happen while trolleying who's to say that it cannot happen while moving. 4. This problem has been ongoing for too long without an answer from the manufacturer. Are they prioritizing introducing new wheels over fixing the problems with the ones already introduced? The pressure is ultimately they may start to seem incapable of solving the problems that arise with their wheels and they will lose customers; actual and potential. This would be tragic as companies might start to dial back the aggression with introducing new automated luxury and convenience features that actually make the device cooler, and more functional. Edited March 11, 2019 by Lutalo 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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