!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[Lutalo]

23 minutes ago, yasbean said:

I should think that you could get a few new screws thrown in gratis with the new control board.  That should be the last of your concerns.

Ya think? Either way, easy fix. 

[nute]

I would want some decent quality screws not more of the ones which are apparently made of cheese and strip so easily.

Im amazed at how many of these incidents are occurring in supermarkets but i guess that is one of the prime places for trolling your wheel.  

Lewis I'm sure Ian (speedy feet) will be very helpful, everyone i know who has got tier wheel from him speaks very highly of him. Let us know what happens and if the batteries are affected. 

[Lutalo]

9 hours ago, yasbean said:

I should think that you could get a few new screws thrown in gratis with the new control board.  That should be the last of your concerns.

The last of your concerns if you are borderline OCD like me? Wait for them to arrive by mail and have to look at those empty screw holes for an additional week when I can find them in the store today? Nah, man. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lutalo

[Circuitmage]

@Lutalo Here in the states our Lowes did NOT have those screws, too small. I posted earlier in this thread about them.  I purchased 30 pcs of M2x8mm screws off Ebay for $4. I have not tried them yet, as I have not had to get back into my unit, but I think those are the ones you need, from my investigations after opening my unit a couple times due to lockups.

Yeah, a couple of the screws started stripping on me too.

The GOOD news is, since one of the latest FW updated, I have not had a lock up...so still riding. Supposedly I have an update version that includes the FW reset, but my wheel has not locked up again...so far.

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

@Lutalo Here in the states our Lowes did NOT have those screws, too small. I posted earlier in this thread about them.  I purchased 30 pcs of M2x8mm screws off Ebay for $4. I have not tried them yet, as I have not had to get back into my unit, but I think those are the ones you need, from my investigations after opening my unit a couple times due to lockups.

Yeah, a couple of the screws started stripping on me too.

The GOOD news is, since one of the latest FW updated, I have not had a lock up...so still riding. Supposedly I have an update version that includes the FW reset, but my wheel has not locked up again...so far.

Yeah. I usually have better luck at Ace or Strosniders. I have historically had less luck at HD or Lowe's with the small details. 

Once you can determine how well your M2X8mm screws work on the shell. Could you let us know. I don't need them at the moment,  but I will order some as backups as the screwheads are indeed very soft and easy to strip. Also, let us know if the screw heads are harder,  because if they are I will just order enough to replace all of mine - make the originals the spares. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lutalo

[Circuitmage]

@Lutalo I have the phillips pan head screws at home (that I want to use), but I also have some various Metric size screws here at work (didn't have those here when I was initially taking my shells off the 1st 2 times.

Looks like I was wrong. M2's are too small. I tried at M3x10 and compared it, fits perfectly but is a tad bit long. The screw looks to be an M3x8.

 

[Lutalo]

34 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

@Lutalo I have the phillips pan head screws at home (that I want to use), but I also have some various Metric size screws here at work (didn't have those here when I was initially taking my shells off the 1st 2 times.

Looks like I was wrong. M2's are too small. I tried at M3x10 and compared it, fits perfectly but is a tad bit long. The screw looks to be an M3x8.

 

That is awesome. I will order a pack of M3X8mm from Amazon or Ebay. Since I plan to remove the covers at regular intervals to clean the silt buildup, I will try to look for some screws made from a harder material, as the heads on the current equip does not seem able to withstand frequent winding.

The originals should last just fine, but I can see that the screwheads will eventually strip over time after repeated windings in and out. I don't think KS imagined that users might need or want to remove the covers frequently. The dirt that I found inside the shell when I initially removed the cover convinced me otherwise. 

 

[Circuitmage]

@Lutalo

I just ordered mine;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M3-304-Stainless-steel-Flanged-Button-Head-Round-Washer-Head-Phillips-Screws-A2/132707240060?var=432024307588&hash=item1ee5f7c87c:m:m2DkA-p3H6sRmddhvFPLUiA

Same place I got the M2's, took about 2 weeks if I recall. Don't know what I was thinking when I ordered the M2's.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Circuitmage

[Lutalo]

43 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

@Lutalo

I just ordered mine;

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F132707240060

Same place I got the M2's, took about 2 weeks if I recall. Don't know what I was thinking when I ordered the M2's.

Very cool. Thanks, man. 

[Lutalo]

@Circuitmage, I couldn't get this link:  https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F132707240060 

to operate from my mobile. When I select "confirm buy" the link breaks and the page doesn't load. I will try again from my PC later. Thanks again for the info.

[Circuitmage]

@Lutalo I updated the link above. I dunno...maybe that one will work for you.

Also, I should have checked here too...https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-rounded-head-screws

McMaster does not have the flanged button head in phillips (with built in washer that are on the wheel now), but one of those should work.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Circuitmage

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

@Lutalo I updated the link above. I dunno...maybe that one will work for you.

Also, I should have checked here too...https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-rounded-head-screws

McMaster does not have the flanged button head in phillips (with built in washer that are on the wheel now), but one of those should work.

Cool, thanks dude. The head type is not so important so long as it works. 

Update: ordered the 100 pack. Thanks for the info. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Lutalo

[LewisF]

Thanks for the tips on the screws guys. The standard ones caused me a fair bit of stress the other day when I couldn't get into the unit so I'm looking forward to getting them all replaced with something much more robust.

@nute - RE the pattern of lock-ups in supermarkets -   I imagine it's likely that it has to do with the amount of start/stopping that happens when shopping in supermarkets. When I'm trolleying the wheel elsewhere, it's mostly just in motion with the occasional stop for a junction/to pick the wheel up. Whereas there are so many start/stops in a typical supermarket trip, probably making the chances of one of those pull movements triggering the bug much more likely. 

Funnily enough for me the lock-up happened in the biscuit aisle. Perhaps the wheel demonstrating it's own heart-attack was trying to tell me something...

Yes Ian at speedyfeet is fantastic, he's going to speak with KS about it to see whether or not a replacement control board is recommended. 

The wheel still seems to work, although I'm not confident in riding it until I get a full recommendation from Ian. It got so hot the other day I could have cooked up a fried breakfast on it!

[LewisF]

Does anyone know if with the other known cases of the lock-ups, has a replacement control board always been required, or in some cases has the wheel been fine to continue using following the issue with no attention required?

Keen to gauge how likely it is that the control board or even batteries need to be replaced / or how sensible it is to do so. 

[Circuitmage]

@LewisF Not sure, but mine has had 2 lock ups and no controller board replacement. I'm guessing most are replaced, but I have no numbers to back that up.

 

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, LewisF said:

Does anyone know if with the other known cases of the lock-ups, has a replacement control board always been required, or in some cases has the wheel been fine to continue using following the issue with no attention required?

Keen to gauge how likely it is that the control board or even batteries need to be replaced / or how sensible it is to do so. 

I doubt it's "always." I think mainly in cases where the lockup is accompanied by extreme overheating. Seems A lot of savvy individuals ride these wheels and are often able to disconnect the batteries pretty quickly after the lockup. The power-down feature of FW V1.11 will certainly prevent needing a new board post lockup. 

Another thing is that it seems to be relatively few wheels having this problem. However,  reporting lockups on the forum automatically multiplies each single incident by four ?.  It does appear to me that the unlucky ones sometimes get hit with repeated lockups- sucks.

V1. 11 should check the spread of the lockup incidents that have already occurred, but the number of power-down incidents might reveal what would have been had KS failed to introduce V1.11 - which itself is more of a bandage than a cure. 

Wheel lockup hasn't happened to me, and I have a first batch wheel. However, I am still running v1.10, with the lift sensor turned off. My previous wheels have trained me to power down before lifting. I shall have to train myself to rely on the lift sensor. I will likely upgrade to 11 and turn the function on just to see if my wheel ever powers down on me.

I think each unique power-down (not repeated because one incident firmly establishes that you have that wheel, and that similar trolleying habits will probably cause power-down to happen again) after upgrading to v1.11 should be reported to the dealer for the sake of metrics. Then we will know for certain if a relative few wheels was headed in the direction of a relative many wheels. 

KS will know if they need to fire somebody else beyond the person/s they probably gave the boot when it surfaced that the issue was more likely the result of someone falling asleep on the friggin assembly line than a firmware fault.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Lutalo

[US69]

1 hour ago, Circuitmage said:

@LewisF Not sure, but mine has had 2 lock ups and no controller board replacement. I'm guessing most are replaced, but I have no numbers to back that up.

 

You should contact your seller then and ask for that replacement!

 

[US69]

On 9/5/2018 at 10:09 PM, TomOnWheels said:

Another lock for me today ! 3rd one ! Definitely this wheel hate shopping ! It happens in the shop where I initially bought my KS18L ! 

But as I have the latest firmware, the behaviour was different this time:   I can confirm that KS worked on that and now instead of having a lock and the wheel becoming very hot and needing battery to be disconnected, it simply shut-off...  And after I've pressed the power button it was back to normal :-)

 

Oh Man, Tom, so sorry, for your bad experience!

As we allready have talked about this...please hit me up if there is any problem with replacing your board by KS France!

[US69]

 

Hy Community, and at first sorry for me beeing off a bit longer...you wont believe it, but my girlfriend screwed up our Internet contract, so i was relying on Internet at work only, which you can guess is quite a problem for „privat“ things!

 

So, to sum some things up:

The „lock“ problem is by anx means NOT firmware or trolley sensor related! So my advice would be to definitely update to 1.11...as this may extremly help in case a lockup really happens!

So when you have achieved a „lock“ on your wheel, contact your seller and consist that you wanted the board to be changed!

 

Other questions regarding the lock issue:

No, it will not affect any other parts as the board...the current running while „locked“ is A LOT under what the batterys are able to achieve constantly!

So, nope, beside a board change, nothing else is needed.

 

LEDs loosing their „power“ and not beeing bright enough anymore:

In case that happens...also contact your seller! He should be able to get you a spare part!

 

Unfortunatly the 18L release has had quite some hickups! KS is very sorry for that and working hard to get these problems solved and hoping not to loose the long time achieved quality reputation!

 

As always, everyone can also contact me by PM for any further questions!

As we/i are still waiting for fulfillment of our new internet contract, please just give me some time to answer!

Bests

US69

[Lutalo]

58 minutes ago, US69 said:

Oh Man, Tom, so sorry, for your bad experience!

As we allready have talked about this...please hit me up if there is any problem with replacing your board by KS France!

Thanks to v1.11, at least this new occasion allows him to continue to use his wheel while he awaits his replacement board - sucks to have to replace it again though. There is one of those in every assembly line, and unfortunately, @TomOnWheels got it. Sorry,  dude. Fingers crossed that it is the last time for you man. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Lutalo

[em1barns]

@US69, if the lockup is not trolley related but due to hardware problem, could it happen with a rider on the wheel, even though it has not occurred yet?

If some hardware fails with low temperature / aircon as reported, isn’t there a risk with winter coming that these types of incident get on the rise?

[US69]

27 minutes ago, em1barns said:

if the lockup is not trolley related but due to hardware problem, could it happen with a rider on the wheel, even though it has not occurred yet?

My -overcorrect- answer to this would be:

If a rider with typical weight while riding can simulate trolleying board behaviour ...meaning that currents near null run through the board for a longer time, and that AFTER normal riding conditions = warm board…....Yes, then it can also happen to a rider on the Wheel. 

33 minutes ago, em1barns said:

If some hardware fails with low temperature / aircon as reported, isn’t there a risk with winter coming that these types of incident get on the rise?

Point of the failure isn't the low temperature alone.....Point is the temperature of the board is going down after being warm while also only running a small current (which only occure while trolleying)…

 

 

[Rob Valley]

6 minutes ago, US69 said:

My -overcorrect- answer to this would be:

oh Ulf, I am always amazed that i have to read your comments, at least 3 times before i understand your rhetorical sentences. have you ever heard of the saying "talk to them like they dumb and they become dumb?" i would avoid this as a media rep. also my priority would be to get rid of all the spelling mistakes marked red, this will improve your language skills allot over time. oh and the excessive use of exclamation marks really annoys me, but thats just me I am not even old but still grumpy.

That being said, if i understand you correctly, the issue is not anymore linked to a oscillator coming loose?

[Lutalo]

6 minutes ago, Rob Valley said:

oh Ulf, I am always amazed that i have to read your comments, at least 3 times before i understand your rhetorical sentences. have you ever heard of the saying "talk to them like they dumb and they become dumb?" i would avoid this as a media rep. also my priority would be to get rid of all the spelling mistakes marked red, this will improve your language skills allot over time. oh and the excessive use of exclamation marks really annoys me, but thats just me I am not even old but still grumpy.

That being said, if i understand you correctly, the issue is not anymore linked to a oscillator coming loose?

Whoa, dude. Order the decaf next time. 

[US69]

30 minutes ago, Rob Valley said:

oh Ulf, I am always amazed that i have to read your comments, at least 3 times before i understand your rhetorical sentences. have you ever heard of the saying "talk to them like they dumb and they become dumb?" i would avoid this as a media rep. also my priority would be to get rid of all the spelling mistakes marked red, this will improve your language skills allot over time. oh and the excessive use of exclamation marks really annoys me, but thats just me I am not even old but still grumpy.

That being said, if i understand you correctly, the issue is not anymore linked to a oscillator coming loose? 

No, you must have understand something wrong...it is still the weak soldered oscillator which gets loose/lifted when the Wheel gets from a warm state(driving, braking etc -high amps) to a Cold state(trolleying/mall- no amps at all).

So when someone asks "is it possible that it might happen while driving"...the normal answer would be: Probably No……(and it didn't happen to anyone until now)…

The -overcorrect- answer would be: If you can simulate trolleying while riding...sure, Maybe it can happen. But i personnaly dont think so, as it is hard to ride around with Null amps...

Nonetheless it still might be somehow possible, or? Who and what Kind of  electrician and/or PCB-specialist am i, that i can reliable answer that Question correct?

And if i would say "no, can definitly not" what do you think whats up when it happens to someone?

Perhaps you understand my -overcorrect- answer now a bit more…….. :-) 

Oooh, and if you find "allot" or a lot exclamation marks...you can have them!

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by US69