!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[phatmike]

Is there any KS18L rubberized black afflicted by the trolley lock/problem out there? KS 18L rubberized black arrived with the second batch, if none is afflicted, can this be the proof of a first batch hardware problem only?

[TomOnWheels]

1 hour ago, squirt said:

Either that, or the issue is not with the board. As @joku mentioned, it could be the way the sensors are connected.  Could be finicky.  If they are not attached just right, they could cause an intermittent problem.

we are not even sure that this is a sensor issue... If only KS can get some random signal generators and analyzers and a good engineer   they could reproduce the issue within a day. Even if it's a thermal issue it's such an easy way to investigate. i'm working for the company developing 5G telco equipment and all theses tests are industrial standards...

[TomOnWheels]

5 minutes ago, phatmike said:

Is there any KS18L rubberized black afflicted by the trolley lock/problem out there? KS 18L rubberized black arrived with the second batch, if none is afflicted, can this be the proof of a first batch hardware problem only?

my isrubberized black, first batch... probably first because KS don't want to give me that info even with serial number provided.

[Seba]

38 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

my isrubberized black, first batch... probably first because KS don't want to give me that info even with serial number provided.

I don't know if my KS18L is first, second or any other batch, but from my serial number (KS18 L2 B 180526 F 007) I can figure that it has been manufactured at May 25, 2018, as a seventh unit built that day. Almost 1000 km on the clock, no issues to date.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Seba

[US69]

14 hours ago, TomOnWheels said:

Ok so today i was shopping and trolleyinng my KS around. And after 5 minutes is start to shake like a crazy ! I had to press power button to stop/start the wheel. Then after 5 minutes of trolleying I got it lock ! And imagine I was on holidays... No screwdriver on me, and the wheel was starting to become very hot... I had to buy one, dismount the wheel in the middle of the street, then disconnect/reconnect the battery... Very enjoying... @tinawong stop responding, @US69 maybe you can push that to KS ? I'm the guy that already got this lock before, changed the board and sent the faulty one to KS China for investigations... Still nothing and that happening again... I'm seriously disapointed... How the hell a serious company can't investigate properly this issue ? There is even a video of it the lock happening... Do you KS realize that this is something about trust ? I was always supporting KS and taking defense of it despite hours spent in dismounting, adjusting, changing board, etc... This is just crazy. I'm seriously thinking to move to another brand and just stop waisting my time and money. :-(

Man, that really is a bummer! 

Did the board Change happen over your seller or do you have been in communications with KS/Tina directly? 

If you want me to push the message Forward to KS would you please contact me via PM to get your real Name, please?

Normally i would ask to go over your seller, but whatever you prefer todo so!

Edited August 28, 2018 by US69

[Shad0z]

2 out of 3 who have ks18L in denmark have had the lockup issue, less than 2 weeks after they got it. I think people should stop hiding this issue away like its “a small batch issue” or “already fixed” one of the lockups were on the newest version.

we need this fixed, tr more we deny its a small issue, the less kingsong will work on it, we need to get this issue fixed

[US69]

1 hour ago, TomOnWheels said:

we are not even sure that this is a sensor issue... If only KS can get some random signal generators and analyzers and a good engineer   they could reproduce the issue within a day. Even if it's a thermal issue it's such an easy way to investigate. i'm working for the company developing 5G telco equipment and all theses tests are industrial standards...

As said yesterday...most common it is a Hardware Problem with a weak soldered oscillator.

Since now it is confirmed on two boards KS received back.

To be 100% sure they want to check on some other boards they been waiting for!

Other solder paste, more QC and tests on the boards already have been installed.

Edited August 28, 2018 by US69

[Rob Valley]

3 hours ago, US69 said:

Hardware Problem with a weak soldered oscillator.

Just by reading up on this it makes sense, given the problem and the possible rootcause.

But i think what everyone is asking for is that we need more assurance, like for the question; how probable is it that I have board that was produced with "bad soldering", assuming this is something like cold joint or insufficient wetting. Since you cannot predict when a weak solder breaks, this could be checked, most automated printing machines use vision cameras to check the quality, and stores the pictures for these kinds of situations. hell how it even got pass the camera is a question thats need to be asked.

i know i know, "if i don't trust my wheel i can send it back to supplier / if i have ridden it so far i don't need to worry / go out and try to provoke it yada yada yaa"...  no, i like my wheel, and i have a life to live, if they f'---d up some of the boards it fine by me, this happens in automated processes, but  i want to know, i want a new board, i want get on with enjoying the wheel.

And yes yes, every given wheel can brake at every given minute, but that comes down to statistics, here we are talking probabilities, so that don't matter.

I Know i am a bit ahead of myself, i am impatient as the rest of us, and i hope KS will take appropriate actions to resolve the issue and assure US when the analysis is finished.. 

all we want is. data data data
 

i like data.

[Unventor]

59 minutes ago, Rob Valley said:

all we want is. data data data
 

i like data.

I think I recall a tv-show...hmmm. Star trek? 

Jokes off...

Well I just got back home after a 20 km ride. For now I choose to trust my wheel. Time will tell if that was a good or bad bet. 

285km ridden so far and trolleying around while shopped a fair bit of times too. Also in and out of security gates in a/c supermarkets too. 

[Circuitmage]

With so much ride time, to have the unit lock up just while trollying does not seem like a solder problem to me. People are going to hit more bumps and vibration while riding and we have not heard of a failure while riding.

It could be that the component in question is not used unless in trolly mode, but I would guess that is not likely. I dunno.

I also am still riding, now at V1.10, and using trolly and cut off switch more. Racking up my 5 miles per day....

[Rob Valley]

this might be a shot in the dark but what if....

Since the most important feature of the wheel is when you balance a person on it, the wheel could be configured to take into account added weight onto the wheel, or resistance or wathever..
(Another idea, when you ride it, it uses the gyro to compensate ie. add more/less power, but the gyro is not good enough when trolleying, hence, oscilator)

But without any weight how could you control the amount of power to be pushed through? in comes the oscilator, make a fixed oscilation, calibrate it to the wheel and have balanced power delivered.

hope i didn't hit any innocent bystanders by shooting in the dark
just a theory

 

EDIT:

scratch that, thinking about it makes it not compute.

the reason i reasoned like this is becouse i think the supermarkets are just corealation and trolleying is more causation

Edited August 28, 2018 by Rob Valley

[joku]

A lot of us don't have issues with trolley mode. They already replaced his controller and he still had an issue. The next logical step is to replace his trolley system.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by joku

[esaj]

3 hours ago, Rob Valley said:

this might be a shot in the dark but what if....

Since the most important feature of the wheel is when you balance a person on it, the wheel could be configured to take into account added weight onto the wheel, or resistance or wathever..
(Another idea, when you ride it, it uses the gyro to compensate ie. add more/less power, but the gyro is not good enough when trolleying, hence, oscilator)

But without any weight how could you control the amount of power to be pushed through? in comes the oscilator, make a fixed oscilation, calibrate it to the wheel and have balanced power delivered.

hope i didn't hit any innocent bystanders by shooting in the dark
just a theory

 

EDIT:

scratch that, thinking about it makes it not compute.

the reason i reasoned like this is becouse i think the supermarkets are just corealation and trolleying is more causation

Maybe I've misunderstood, but I think they mean the oscillator for the MCU, ie. the external component creating the clock signal for the MCU? Unless there are several oscillators on the board.

EDIT: Assuming they follow the typical marking conventions (Y = crystal) and have running numbers for the components, there's at least 2 crystal oscillators there (Y2 seen in the picture, there's bound to be Y1 somewhere, might be more):

Under the large chip marked U1 (probably an MCU) near the center of the picture.

Edited August 28, 2018 by esaj

[Unventor]

@US69 just a short question.

Has Kingsong given you any information about if any Chinese KS model had the lockup symptoms? Or is it only Kingsong (international) builds that had issues?

[TomOnWheels]

10 hours ago, US69 said:

Man, that really is a bummer! 

Did the board Change happen over your seller or do you have been in communications with KS/Tina directly? 

If you want me to push the message Forward to KS would you please contact me via PM to get your real Name, please?

Normally i would ask to go over your seller, but whatever you prefer todo so!

@US69 just give me a day and I will PM you. I was in contact with Tina and I was always putting my seller in loop. Will give you all details in PM.

[Lutalo]

10 hours ago, Shad0z said:

we need this fixed, tr more we deny its a small issue, the less kingsong will work on it, we need to get this issue fixed

I hear you. It's freakin' scary. I think that most buyers feel that this is a big issue that has affected a proportionally small number of wheels globally.

I am unfamiliar with Denmark's experience, so I am unqualified to speak on it. However, it does seem to me that the malfunction has affected certain markets in greater proportion than others - of course it's conjecture because I have seen no hard numbers on this issue. Nevertheless, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. We shall see what is uncovered, I am sure KS is feverishly working to get to the bottom of this problem before it threatens to damage the relationships which they have worked very hard to build.

[US69]

4 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

With so much ride time, to have the unit lock up just while trollying does not seem like a solder problem to me. People are going to hit more bumps and vibration while riding and we have not heard of a failure while riding.

Please go back to later explanations why this is happening...its because the wheel/board gets from a high/normal temperature status to a “cold” board when the wheel is trolleyed. The Oscillater lifts up when board gets cold (low amps while trolleying, and even more triggered perhaps by airconditioned malls) And Yes, this just might come up after some time....Sorry, best explanation until today!

 

1 hour ago, esaj said:

EDIT: Assuming they follow the typical marking conventions (Y = crystal) and have running numbers for the components, there's at least 2 crystal oscillators there (Y2 seen in the picture, there's bound to be Y1 somewhere, might be more):

 

Congrats, easj! You nailed it! Its actually really the Y2 in the photo causing the problems...ATTENTION: Confirmed on 2 boards! KS still want to have a look into more boards to be a 100% sure!!!

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Has Kingsong given you any information about if any Chinese KS model had the lockup symptoms? Or is it only Kingsong (international) builds that had issues?

I actually know a lot of resellers! No locks in Singapur...no locks in Germany...no locks in other countries!

As bad as it was for @TomOnWheels....he received a “new board” at a time, when all where thinking that this is a fault because of the handle sensor...so probably, probably, dont blame me on this ....he received a board which was also from first batches to change on his wheels!

Since KS good the first clue that SOME of the boards where affected as a hardware issue, they take several steps to make sure this “Y2 oscillator weak soldering” can not happen again.....

 

[US69]

1 hour ago, TomOnWheels said:

@US69 just give me a day and I will PM you. I was in contact with Tina and I was always putting my seller in loop. Will give you all details in PM.

When you have been in contact with Tina, its all fine!

I just wanted to be sure, that you will bet the attention you deserved! So just if you might have probs getting into contact with KS....

[Unventor]

Thank you for answering my question directly and with details @US69.

[joku]

@US69 it's concerning that the weak soldering of the oscillator is the issue. If that's the case, even though we're not getting trolley lock-ups right now, that oscillator malfunctioning can cause failures while riding.

Edited August 28, 2018 by joku

[Rob Valley]

6 hours ago, esaj said:

Maybe I've misunderstood, but I think they mean the oscillator for the MCU, ie. the external component creating the clock signal for the MCU? Unless there are several oscillators on the board.

EDIT: Assuming they follow the typical marking conventions (Y = crystal) and have running numbers for the components, there's at least 2 crystal oscillators there (Y2 seen in the picture, there's bound to be Y1 somewhere, might be more):

Under the large chip marked U1 (probably an MCU) near the center of the picture.

No you did not misunderstand, my reasoning was more that this oscilator is used when trolleying, causing it to come of..

Temperature? ok but in this case already driving the board very hot, and letting it cool down, should have the same effect right?
Im having a hard time believe external temperatures and humidity could cause this, i mean its almost in  a sealed environment, even going into a shop with +10 degrees i think a board would stay the same temperature for a long time before cooling of, or feeling the effect of the AC..

But i guess time will tell, winter is coming, here in the nordics..

[zugu]

Hi

Someone can report about last 1.11 firmware ??? 

Still stay with 1.07 found at open box.....

[chafouin]

On 8/28/2018 at 5:17 PM, US69 said:

As bad as it was for @TomOnWheels....he received a “new board” at a time, when all where thinking that this is a fault because of the handle sensor...so probably, probably, dont blame me on this ....he received a board which was also from first batches to change on his wheels!

 

@US69, do we know if this oscillator problem also affects the KS-18L batch2 that @Jason McNeil just received?

[phatmike]

11 hours ago, zugu said:

Hi

Someone can report about last 1.11 firmware ??? 

Still stay with 1.07 found at open box.....

I just did 20 KM with the new firmware. Something changed here!   I feel the wheel more aggressive in acceleration and braking. 

[nrvfromcnr]

Hello,

New occurrence with my 18L / FW 1.10 / while walking my wheel at around 4 mph (quite fast for a walk).

More details here:

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/5731-ks18l-blocage-roue-puis-surchauffe/?do=findComment&comment=135348

Some numbers: MB up to 97°C, motor up to 86°C. Let's say that I just fear to step on it again ...

Waiting for information from @KingSong European Hub  where I bought my 18L wheel and received it june 18th

@US69 do you have some more info regarding this issue on your side?

Nrv

Edit : Now that I remember: this one time I was in "Learning" mode. I usually am in mode 2 "Intermediate".  Please note that I often use the trolley, as I go to work with my wheel. I have to walk her inside the building, then the elevator, then to my desk. If it can help KingSong to reproduce the issue.

Edit2 : some media I made:

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by nrvfromcnr
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