TomOnWheels Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 3 hours ago, US69 said: as i understand it, kingsong was totally able to reproduce the fault and has fixed it. WHEN there was an board fried with 1.07, at first i would call that an isolated case and not depending on the general problem. When there are still amd more cases coming up about frying boards, even under 1.07, the exact scenarios need to be collected and reported to KS. Rumours dont help a lot, facts are needed. About an added temperature sensor: This has nothing todo with the faults... The KS18L is on of the first wheels that has added an extra temperature sensor which is reading the motor temperature inside the wh eell'mmw An info which can be seen under More-detailed Parameters.... I was just saying that apparently there are already at last 2 versions of hardware (with and without 2nd temp sensor). My rumours are on the way to be verified with KS, and a replacement controller should be delivered to me on Monday. I will of course compare both... (one that died and the new one). I will post here if I have some more news... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post yar Posted July 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Dmitry71 said: ONE MORE SAME CASE IN RUSSIA, FIRMWARE 1.06 https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D51032.msg1391825%23msg1391825&edit-text= Let me help by summarizing what was said in the Russian forum, because auto-translation can be miseading: The user Asu6nik walked his KS18L by the trolley inside a shopping mall. After some 20 metres, the wheel stopped, locked in one position and resisted turning, it did not respond to button presses. After one hour, he was able to take it apart and disconnect the batteries. By that time, the whole case became very hot, the batteries inside were very hot and were making a quiet hissing sound that could be heard by pressing one's ear against the battery case, the sound resembled a boiling teapot. After letting everything cool off and reconnecting the batteries, Asu6nik had the wheel ridable again. The charge level dropped from 85% to 40% in the process. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 3 hours ago, yar said: Let me help by summarizing what was said in the Russian forum, because auto-translation can be miseading: The user Asu6nik walked his KS18L by the trolley inside a shopping mall. After some 20 metres, the wheel stopped, locked in one position and resisted turning, it did not respond to button presses. After one hour, he was able to take it apart and disconnect the batteries. By that time, the whole case became very hot, the batteries inside were very hot and were making a quiet hissing sound that could be heard by pressing one's ear against the battery case, the sound resembled a boiling teapot. After letting everything cool off and reconnecting the batteries, Asu6nik had the wheel ridable again. The charge level dropped from 85% to 40% in the process. Hissing sound and it working again doesn’t sound credible. Batteries don’t his unless ruptured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kael Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Surely they could if they get too hot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 12 hours ago, yar said: Let me help by summarizing what was said in the Russian forum, because auto-translation can be miseading: The user Asu6nik walked his KS18L by the trolley inside a shopping mall. After some 20 metres, the wheel stopped, locked in one position and resisted turning, it did not respond to button presses. After one hour, he was able to take it apart and disconnect the batteries. By that time, the whole case became very hot, the batteries inside were very hot and were making a quiet hissing sound that could be heard by pressing one's ear against the battery case, the sound resembled a boiling teapot. After letting everything cool off and reconnecting the batteries, Asu6nik had the wheel ridable again. The charge level dropped from 85% to 40% in the process. Thanks ! Exactly what happens to me ! An it's maybe a coincidence but all wheels died in trolley mode... What is really interesting is that he reconnect the battery and it worked again... I did not try and will try on Monday as a replacement board will arrive... If it works then all the stuff is clearly just a firmware issue ! This is very interesting ! I also hear the noise: the one of the fun running at max speed to cool down all the motherboard, and the high pitch sound of power circuit. Battery was no very hot, which is a good sign that it survived. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xoltri Posted July 8, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2018 With such a severe failure mode I would be demanding a complete replacement of the wheel. No telling what damage was done to the longevity of the battery, damage to the motor windings or wiring, and if the magnets were hotter than 80 celcius they are damaged also. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Xoltri said: With such a severe failure mode I would be demanding a complete replacement of the wheel. No telling what damage was done to the longevity of the battery, damage to the motor windings or wiring, and if the magnets were hotter than 80 celcius they are damaged also. I'm pretty sure that there is no damage to the battery... It was just a little bit more hot that normal... As for wires, yes they was hot too but I can touch it for long time without burning my skin. I was more worried for the motor. It was indeed very hot, but not to the point to smell the plastic/gum (as said by another member having the same issue). I didn't know that the magnets can be damaged by a relatively low 80°C... This is not a good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: I'm pretty sure that there is no damage to the battery... It was just a little bit more hot that normal... There are mosfets in the bms which are not really cooled and could be overheated and by this got "insulted" by this abuse. 4 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: As for wires, yes they was hot too but I can touch it for long time without burning my skin. I was more worried for the motor. It was indeed very hot, but not to the point to smell the plastic/gum (as said by another member having the same issue). I didn't know that the magnets can be damaged by a relatively low 80°C... This is not a good... Also the motor coils wires just have some thin layers of insulation (some kind of varnish) which could imo get partially destroyed by overtemperature and by this short circuit reduces the number of windings of some coils. Could go from minimal differences in motor characteristics to needing motor replacement. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chriull said: There are mosfets in the bms which are not really cooled and could be overheated and by this got "insulted" by this abuse. Also the motor coils wires just have some thin layers of insulation (some kind of varnish) which could imo get partially destroyed by overtemperature and by this short circuit reduces the number of windings of some coils. Could go from minimal differences in motor characteristics to needing motor replacement. Right... Modern mosfets are quite resistant, but it's never good idea to cook them that way... As for wires, this can be very bad... I'm wondering how I can run a kind of test on the motor to see if there is no damage... I'm trying to figure out if the temperature was really too high or if it's ok... @hal2000 I'm not sure, I think you told us that it even smell burned plastic ? Did you reconnected the battery after the fail and did you notice anything abnormal when riding ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: ... As for wires, this can be very bad... I'm wondering how I can run a kind of test on the motor to see if there is no damage... I just could imagine high accuracy resistance measurements of the coils at defined constant temperature and comparing them to the values _before_ the incidence... 11 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: I'm trying to figure out if the temperature was really too high or if it's ok... @hal2000 I'm not sure, I think you told us that it even smell burned plastic ? Did you reconnected the battery after the fail and did you notice anything abnormal when riding ? Yes. just "feeling" if something has changed... The first "small" sign could be not so smooth revolutions of the wheel - but this should imo be compensated by the PID loop of the controller.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post hal2000 Posted July 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/7/2018 at 11:55 PM, yar said: Let me help by summarizing what was said in the Russian forum, because auto-translation can be miseading: The user Asu6nik walked his KS18L by the trolley inside a shopping mall. The common denominator so far in all cases (including mine) seems to be trolleying the wheel in the shopping mall. Maybe 18L just doesn't like shopping... 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hal2000 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 10 hours ago, TomOnWheels said: Right... Modern mosfets are quite resistant, but it's never good idea to cook them that way... As for wires, this can be very bad... I'm wondering how I can run a kind of test on the motor to see if there is no damage... I'm trying to figure out if the temperature was really too high or if it's ok... @hal2000 I'm not sure, I think you told us that it even smell burned plastic ? Did you reconnected the battery after the fail and did you notice anything abnormal when riding ? Unfortunately I am not a DIY guy. If I disassemble and later somehow manage to reassemble something I am always left off with plenty parts I don't know what to do with. Anyways, later the dealer told me that KS advised the battery disconnection/reconnection procedure. However this only may work if you manage to do it before the wheel dies. Post-mortem report in my case: motherboard failure and engine failure. Regarding the smell. I would attribute it to the tyre rubber rather than plastic (the rim was as hot as the engine). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, hal2000 said: The common denominator so far in all cases (including mine) seems to be trolleying the wheel in the shopping mall. Maybe 18L just doesn't like shopping... Ha ha ! Right ! It was summer sales time here, it's full of people, I understand KS to be just bored.. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 34 minutes ago, hal2000 said: Unfortunately I am not a DIY guy. If I disassemble and later somehow manage to reassemble something I am always left off with plenty parts I don't know what to do with. Anyways, later the dealer told me that KS advised the battery disconnection/reconnection procedure. However this only may work if you manage to do it before the wheel dies. Post-mortem report in my case: motherboard failure and engine failure. Regarding the smell. I would attribute it to the tyre rubber rather than plastic (the rim was as hot as the engine). Oh ok, that make it pretty clear. It looks more and more like a firmware issue (I was giving the credit to mosfets failure first), that can end up with hardware issue because of temperature and high current going via mosfets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hal2000 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 6 hours ago, TomOnWheels said: Oh ok, that make it pretty clear. It looks more and more like a firmware issue (I was giving the credit to mosfets failure first), that can end up with hardware issue because of temperature and high current going via mosfets. My dealer replaced the mosfets but resurrection failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Circuitmage Posted July 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 9, 2018 Just picked mine up that was on hold at local FedEx office (last day for me to pick it up!). Had to update my KS app before it would recognize 18L, then updated to 1.07 this morning (from 1.02 or 1.03, can't remember) . Now charging to full. This wheel looks very sweet. The LED placement is even better in person. And the trolley is great. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 4 hours ago, hal2000 said: My dealer replaced the mosfets but resurrection failed. I've reconnected the battery and surprise it works ! So that it almost sure a firmware issue ! CPU simply crashed and stop driving mofsets ! As the board was smelling burned, we took a decision to change it just in case. Now my wheel is working as expected - but I will disable the trolley sensor until next firmware update... 3 hours ago, Circuitmage said: Just picked mine up that was on hold at local FedEx office (last day for me to pick it up!). Had to update my KS app before it would recognize 18L, then updated to 1.07 this morning (from 1.02 or 1.03, can't remember) . Now charging to full. This wheel looks very sweet. The LED placement is even better in person. And the trolley is great. Enjoy ! This wheel is awesome ! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 So far I've taken my wheel to grocery shopping and use the trolley to wheel it around. So far no issues. But knock on wood... I don't use the LED's though. Maybe that is the issue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 7 hours ago, eddiemoy said: So far I've taken my wheel to grocery shopping and use the trolley to wheel it around. So far no issues. But knock on wood... I don't use the LED's though. Maybe that is the issue? LEDs was off on mine when it died... It looks to me like to many interruptions from the trolley capture, and maybe power display (you can't switch it off) that just crash the firmware... Really looks like a firmware issue to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, TomOnWheels said: LEDs was off on mine when it died... It looks to me like to many interruptions from the trolley capture, and maybe power display (you can't switch it off) that just crash the firmware... Really looks like a firmware issue to me... What trolley capture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, eddiemoy said: What trolley capture? Sorry, my mistake, I was talking about trolley sensor, the one that is detecting if the wheel in in the air or on the ground... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post US69 Posted July 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2018 14 hours ago, eddiemoy said: So far I've taken my wheel to grocery shopping and use the trolley to wheel it around. So far no issues. But knock on wood... I don't use the LED's though. Maybe that is the issue? I can only repeat from my -very extensive- communication with Tina from Kingsong: The LED Lightring WAS the culprit for board freezes…...AND even better: KS engeneers have been able to completly reproduce the fault in the factory, and so fixed it with FW 1.07. I have no clue what was the problrm with Tom's Wheel....but the "LED ring board Freeze" is fixed. Also with FW 1.07 the trolley sensor recognition was changed. Suggestion for all 18L owners is: (after FW 1.07) to calibrate the sensor one time by the calibration button in the app. Thats more or less nothing more then: Lean the balancing Wheel against a wall. Press the calibrate button. The Wheel then Beeps 5 times or so...after that, pick up the Wheel by the trolley handle like you would for carrying... Calibration Done! 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TomOnWheels Posted July 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, US69 said: I can only repeat from my -very extensive- communication with Tina from Kingsong: The LED Lightring WAS the culprit for board freezes…...AND even better: KS engeneers have been able to completly reproduce the fault in the factory, and so fixed it with FW 1.07. I have no clue what was the problrm with Tom's Wheel....but the "LED ring board Freeze" is fixed. Also with FW 1.07 the trolley sensor recognition was changed. Suggestion for all 18L owners is: (after FW 1.07) to calibrate the sensor one time by the calibration button in the app. Thats more or less nothing more then: Lean the balancing Wheel against a wall. Press the calibrate button. The Wheel then Beeps 5 times or so...after that, pick up the Wheel by the trolley handle like you would for carrying... Calibration Done! In today's email exchange with Tina, she told me that the issue with KS18L while using trolley (running the wheel with the trolley, not only taking it up and down) will be investigated by engineering team and that they will try to reproduce the issue and then make a fix. ONCE AGAIN MY WHEEL DIED IN 1.0.7 ! and it's not the only one... The issue I had, and some other people around is NOT YET fixed. My board is on the way to KS China for being investigated by engineers who design it. Edited July 10, 2018 by TomOnWheels 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Edited August 18, 2018 by nte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, nte said: When you say the wheel died again, has there been a hardware failure or did reconnected the batteries make the wheel usable again? Do you have the trolly sensor turned on? I said "once again" it just to say that I already told many times (even in my initial post) that when the issue happed I was in 1.0.7. So I had this issue only once, and yes it was fixed by disconnecting/reconnecting the battery. The trolley sensor was on and calibrated. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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