!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[US69]

On 8/9/2018 at 5:47 PM, hal2000 said:

Soooo....

The KS advertising slogan should be "different day - another lock" 

2 weeks ago I had my board replaced as the aftermath to Lockgate.

I left the sensor on and it worked well.

Today I rode it to work as usual and when wanted to return home the wheel refused to start.

What happened resembles the case I quote below with the exception that my wheel was/is unrideable.

 

This is becoming REALLY annoying.

I was wondering what "L" in KS18L stands for... I think we all know by now.

If you want help you can PM me any time....

You can also wait for your reseller to help you, no problem!

Edited August 10, 2018 by US69

[phatmike]

5 hours ago, Unventor said:

Really?

I just quoted an old post of mine. So yes I knew it!

[phatmike]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

 

Now I am posting this as we only read about unhappy people. This is not the case about my wheel. 

Same for me. 600 km no issues at all. A couple of time at the mall, sensor on, trolleing for more than one hour. Everithing   works fine. I love my wheel.

[Stan Onymous]

9 hours ago, Nils said:

The KS18L sounds like a fantastic wheel by all accounts, and I would love to ride one I'm not talking about electrical motor sounds in general but a specific whining at a specific frequency that irks me personally (which from what I understand is much less with the K18L than with my old KS16).  But I think this is a case of one either being bothered by it or not, and I'm just personally wary about it coming from the KS16. It may be that I won't find it bothersome when I actually ride an 18L! Anyway, most people don't seem to recognize this as troublesome at all, and I don't want to derail this thread further so let's just say that we're all different when it comes to sensitivity to sounds

Then perhaps you should have started out saying that. I can tell you that the Z10 in Marty’s final conclusions video is way worse than anything I have heard on the KS18L. Saying that the KS18 has a high pitched whine is no news. What is news is that it is alone in this caregory.

Now I have posted a video on the Video forum speaking to the high pitched whine of the KS18s being just slightly less offensive than Bagpipes at the Scottish Day festival in Long Beach earlier this year. So I agree, the Kingsongs let you know they exist whether you like it or not. It is also similar to the whine from a flatsceen television and certain halogen lights about to blow on a low dimmer.

The tesla actually has a lower frequency rwar (sorry french dogs) its not quite a whine and not quite a growl. It is ballsy. I have not had a chance to catch the MSX , and I am not sure I would trust older ears, but listening is in the ears of the beholders. Thats what you were getting at right? 

I think we all have a friend with a funny laugh or an odd way of pitching their voices when excited, and thats the spice of life. Maybe that whine is really a whisper telling you how much that vehicle loves the texture of your pants, or the pressure of your weight and the breeze it creates behind. I think you just dont care... lol sorry I got lost there somewhere.

[Stan Onymous]

10 hours ago, hal2000 said:

was wondering what "L" in KS18L stands for... I think we all know

Yes it stands for.      ????

 

LUTALO!

oh rats I was hoping it was lovely, or lucky or Lorraine or something. 

Still good.

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

Yes it stands for.      ????

 

LUTALO!

oh rats I was hoping it was lovely, or lucky or Lorraine or something. 

Still good.

Yeah! I like the ring of that: the Kingsong 18LUTALO ??????

[Stan Onymous]

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

Yeah! I like the ring of that: the Kingsong 18LUTALO ??????

You should 3D print chrome plastic L’s we can paste on out mudflaps.  Classsy! 

I would proudly sport one on mine. 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

listening is in the ears of the beholders.

Listening yes, hearing not as much. Human hearing is naturally sensitive to certain frequencies, and the ~6KHz whine of the 16S sits in that area.

I haven’t heard of anyone discussing how to dampen the noise on any other than KS wheels. A friend of mine laquered the motor coils of a 16S (didn’t help one bit), and I filled the 16S wheel well with acoustic dampening mass (helped some).

Here are frequency plots on the sounds of 16S and MSX while lifted. 16S near the max speed, and MSX at the loudest part of the recording. The phone was located in the same position in relation to the wheels.

Even after acoustic dampening, the high pitch whine on the 16S is 11dB louder (almost 4 times the sound pressure) than on the MSX. The lower frequency noise at 1KHz is 4dB louder on the MSX, but while clearly audible, it is not a frequency that people are generally very sensitive to. It just makes it sound bigger.

Personal preferences aside, the noise of the 16S is such that human beings in general will find it a lot louder, more piercing and more annoying than on the MSX.

I hope the 18L is better in this regard. Although, judging by the videos atleast the prominent frequency is still the same.

Edited August 10, 2018 by mrelwood

[Nils]

3 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

Then perhaps you should have started out saying that. I can tell you that the Z10 in Marty’s final conclusions video is way worse than anything I have heard on the KS18L. Saying that the KS18 has a high pitched whine is no news. What is news is that it is alone in this caregory.

Now I have posted a video on the Video forum speaking to the high pitched whine of the KS18s being just slightly less offensive than Bagpipes at the Scottish Day festival in Long Beach earlier this year. So I agree, the Kingsongs let you know they exist whether you like it or not. It is also similar to the whine from a flatsceen television and certain halogen lights about to blow on a low dimmer.

The tesla actually has a lower frequency rwar (sorry french dogs) its not quite a whine and not quite a growl. It is ballsy. I have not had a chance to catch the MSX , and I am not sure I would trust older ears, but listening is in the ears of the beholders. Thats what you were getting at right? 

Yes, in hindsight I could have been clearer about what I meant. I just wanted to show some appreciation for @US69s work on KS behalf, and as an aside threw in this item from my personal KS wish list. It wasn't intended as any kind of KS bashing or any particular critique of the K18L (and I hope that I've conveyed that in later posts if nothing else).  Also in hindsight it would have been better to leave that comment for some other thread altogether considering the off-topic discussion it generated.

Thanks for the Z10 conclusion video tip - that's very noticeable! With the caveat that I've only have been able to listen to the wheels from videos it does seem much worse than the K18L..  Yes, it's all in the ears of the beholder, and personally I'm sensitive to these kind of high pitched noises and others are not. I needn't look any further than my wife - I complain and she can't hear these noises at all and is just tired of my whining..    

 

 

[TomOnWheels]

2 hours ago, Nils said:

Yes, in hindsight I could have been clearer about what I meant. I just wanted to show some appreciation for @US69s work on KS behalf, and as an aside threw in this item from my personal KS wish list. It wasn't intended as any kind of KS bashing or any particular critique of the K18L (and I hope that I've conveyed that in later posts if nothing else).  Also in hindsight it would have been better to leave that comment for some other thread altogether considering the off-topic discussion it generated.

Thanks for the Z10 conclusion video tip - that's very noticeable! With the caveat that I've only have been able to listen to the wheels from videos it does seem much worse than the K18L..  Yes, it's all in the ears of the beholder, and personally I'm sensitive to these kind of high pitched noises and others are not. I needn't look any further than my wife - I complain and she can't hear these noises at all and is just tired of my whining..    

 

 

Don't worry, it will be gone with age :-)

[Lutalo]

7 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

You should 3D print chrome plastic L’s we can paste on out mudflaps.  Classsy! 

I would proudly sport one on mine. 

When it comes to that sort of stuff, I am just the "idea" man. ??

[iMaster]

After firmware upgraded to 1.10 and lift sensor calibration, the trolley working very smooth now.

Many thanks for the hard work by KS team!!!

[Stan Onymous]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Even after acoustic dampening, the high pitch whine on the 16S is 11dB louder (almost 4 times the sound pressure) than on the MSX. The lower frequency noise at 1KHz is 4dB louder on the MSX, but while clearly audible, it is not a frequency that people are generally very sensitive to. It just makes it sound bigger.

The noise comes from the control board on my Wheels, not the wheel well. You may have given the shell extra resonnance with the padding giving a better reflection for the higher frequencies.

Also what is the measurement on the bottom of your graph? It would be good to get a read out of those frequencies, and what app did you use to graph ot the frequencies? That is SO COOOOL!

Lower frequencies are less directional because of the larger bandwidth. Higher frequencies are much more directional and contribute to the immediacy or the urgency of the sound. The rumbling fart of an infant is kinda surreal and cute, but the screaming to change its diaper is much higher and instinctively we fit it into the urgency column. Maybe Mr Elwood is stuck in a Nesting phase and the KS16 is just teasing him. Yes, thats my conclusion. Ha!

Edited August 10, 2018 by Stan Onymous

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

The noise comes from the control board on my Wheels, not the wheel well. You may have given the shell extra resonnance with the padding giving a better reflection for the higher frequencies.

The purpose of the dampener mass is to kill resonances as it adds weight and thickness to a surface. I didn’t do before/after measurements, but the whine was noticeably quieter after the mod.

19 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Also what is the measurement on the bottom of your graph? It would be good to get a read out of those frequencies, and what app did you use to graph ot the frequencies? That is SO COOOOL!

It’s an old app called RTA Lite, I’m sure there are better free ones by now. Here’s a full screenshot, including the ad banner...

19 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Lower frequencies are less directional because of the larger bandwidth.

Wavelength, but yes. Before the mod I moved around with a measurement microphone, and the 16S whine seemed to come from the motor itself, and it even included a phase interference component, strongest above the wheel.

19 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Maybe Mr Elwood is stuck in a Nesting phase and the KS16 is just teasing him. Yes, thats my conclusion. Ha!

Huh. That would make the Lhotz the much more mature wheel. Or farty...?

[sb3en]

Trolley fix !

[Rob Valley]

to get things back on topic;

@US69 how is the investigation going?

is there any news on how many wheels from The first batch could have this problem?

how can i be sure that my 18L was not a part of the same failing batch? 

what improvements have been done to the manufacturing process to ensure this will not happen again? 

 

 

 

[US69]

7 hours ago, Rob Valley said:

to get things back on topic;

@US69 how is the investigation going?

is there any news on how many wheels from The first batch could have this problem?

how can i be sure that my 18L was not a part of the same failing batch? 

what improvements have been done to the manufacturing process to ensure this will not happen again? 

 

 

 

Hy there,

Sorry, i have no news to report! Even in China they have weekend and a free Sunday...

As soon as there is any news you will definitely get them!

 

 

[yasbean]

8 hours ago, US69 said:

Hy there,

Sorry, i have no news to report! Even in China they have weekend and a free Sunday...

As soon as there is any news you will definitely get them!

 

 

What?!?  One thing I used to love about living in China was being able to go to the bank, no matter what day of the week it was — Sunday was no different from Monday or Tuesday.

[cbgti]

All the wheels should produce this kind of high pitching noise.

I think that it's really important to be heard by others like pedestrians, cyclists...  Especially in the city...

@US69

Is it anything on the KS18L to identity if it's a first batch or not?

Is there any visible difference (motherboard, trolley, ...) ?

[US69]

6 hours ago, cbgti said:

s it anything on the KS18L to identity if it's a first batch or not?

Is there any visible difference (motherboard, trolley, ...) ?

I can't say how to identify a "first Batch" Wheel, Sorry....but much more important:

When re-reading my Posts, i stated very clear that we are still in the process of analyzing the fault and that only ON ONE SPECIAL BOARD it was a Hardware failure!

So it is -at this time- not even total clear if it is a "first Batch" or "first board" or "screwed Firmware" or "whatever" Kind of fault!

We are still on About 8-10 wheels worldwide, the only ONE Wheel that has got more in counting in the last 10-14 days is the one of danish Henrik Olsen!

On all others, which had the fault until now, KS is contacting the sellers to reach out to the boards!

So my -personal assumption today- would be...if the fault does not  happen on your 18L until know, it will not do so and your Wheel seams not affected at all!

 

For Questions regarding the "board Quality" and future improvements:

KS already has a very high qualitiy in board producing, there is a Video out on their channel showing board production!

Also there are allready QC board Tests done on each of the boards, just for example the "aging" test on the Special engeneer app. I cant say anything to future improvements!

 

But i will say another -very personal- word for this one board - with it's Hardware failure:

Whoever thinks that some can guarantee us a 100% failure free EUC over the "Lifetime" of a Wheel....that is a Illusion! You should really not ride an EUC than!

What i want to say by this is that ANY Wheel at ANY time CAN (and over longer time even WILL) fail!!!….the smallest capacitor, the smallest oscillator, only one battery cell, one wire failing or even just a stupid flat will send you/us flying! You will not find a Wheel brand on the market where no fault at all is reported! Must we accept that? NO! But the only Thing we can do is laying our health into the hands of the Producers that we trust, and that they do the best they can, to make the Wheel as robust as possible and fix evtl. Problems! 

Even if KS has failed with the 18L on SOME boards , which locked the wheel, for whatever - still to find- reason….in my view and with my 9th EUC now, see signature, i am still heavily convinced KS is the brand to trust and i would go on riding the 18L all time!!! (please, someone send me one)  Comparing KS boards to whatever brand you want...boardwise they are the way to go…..at least thats my personal opinion! (And that is in my view also approved by the much more less failure rate across other brands reported by several sellers )

 

At last i can only repeat, that KS has -in my view- played with mindblowing open Cards and that they stand behind their product and are trying to get the kinks away.....i can recall problems on other Brands, where we all got no Statement/Reaction/Repair at all!!!

So, i can only repeat it: As soon as i got any News to tell, i will do so!

 

 

[em1barns]

@US69, could you provide the url of the KS channel you mention? Thanks.

[Circuitmage]

@US69 Thanks for the summary. One thing though, after my 2 lock-ups I was asked to upgrade to the "newer" 1.07 about 10 days ago (which I did). I contacted my seller yesterday to ask about upgrading further, as more FW releases have been made. No word back yet. I have not been asked to send it back/replace controller board.

For me, (lock ups at ~40km and 100km), I am now at 255km. It is a very comfortable wheel, so outlook good for me on the FW fix, but will be much more secure if I hit the 500km mark without issue.

 

[Lutalo]

25 minutes ago, US69 said:

I can't say how to identify a "first Batch" Wheel, Sorry....but much more important:

When re-reading my Posts, i stated very clear that we are still in the process of analyzing the fault and that only ON ONE SPECIAL BOARD it was a Hardware failure!

So it is -at this time- not even total clear if it is a "first Batch" or "first board" or "screwed Firmware" or "whatever" Kind of fault!

We are still on About 8-10 wheels worldwide, the only ONE Wheel that has got more in counting in the last 10-14 days is the one of danish Henrik Olsen!

On all others, which had the fault until now, KS is contacting the sellers to reach out to the boards!

So my -personal assumption today- would be...if the fault does not  happen on your 18L until know, it will not do so and your Wheel seams not affected at all!

 

For Questions regarding the "board Quality" and future improvements:

KS already has a very high qualitiy in board producing, there is a Video out on their channel showing board production!

Also there are allready QC board Tests done on each of the boards, just for example the "aging" test on the Special engeneer app. I cant say anything to future improvements!

 

But i will say another -very personal- word for this one board - with it's Hardware failure:

Whoever thinks that some can guarantee us a 100% failure free EUC over the "Lifetime" of a Wheel....that is a Illusion! You should really not ride an EUC than!

What i want to say by this is that ANY Wheel at ANY time CAN (and over longer time even WILL) fail!!!….the smallest capacitor, the smallest oscillator, only one battery cell, one wire failing or even just a stupid flat will send you/us flying! You will not find a Wheel brand on the market where no fault at all is reported! Must we accept that? NO! But the only Thing we can do is laying our health into the hands of the Producers that we trust, and that they do the best they can, to make the Wheel as robust as possible and fix evtl. Problems! 

Even if KS has failed with the 18L on SOME boards , which locked the wheel, for whatever - still to find- reason….in my view and with my 9th EUC now, see signature, i am still heavily convinced KS is the brand to trust and i would go on riding the 18L all time!!! (please, someone send me one)  Comparing KS boards to whatever brand you want...boardwise they are the way to go…..at least thats my personal opinion! (And that is in my view also approved by the much more less failure rate across other brands reported by several sellers )

 

At last i can only repeat, that KS has -in my view- played with mindblowing open Cards and that they stand behind their product and are trying to get the kinks away.....i can recall problems on other Brands, where we all got no Statement/Reaction/Repair at all!!!

So, i can only repeat it: As soon as i got any News to tell, i will do so!

 

 

Amen to that. The response to the problems from KS alone speaks volumes. They do not like problems with the wheels they manufacture. They have built their brand and reputation on quality. So long as damage control efforts are robust, effective, and not continuous, problems with one early batch shouldn't threaten that reputation.

However, customers tend to be fair-weather brand fans. Trending problems with the wheels, indicate a prevalence of quality control issues within the plant and could cause us, fair-weather buyers, to jump ship.

This would be bad for business. Especially in an market environment where some advocates of competing brands, to bring more attention to their preferred brand, or brands, seem eager to point out any minuscule flaw that a KS wheel might have.

I don't think KS will allow the erosion of good QC practices; I wouldn't if I was in this business as more than a just a consumer.

On another note. Broke 200km yesterday. All I can say is that 50kph feels downright

YIPPEEEEEEEE!???

Edited August 13, 2018 by Lutalo

[Scubadragonsan]

Hurray! KingSong has a new update, version 1.5. I download it and it fixed the lift sensor issue with KS18L. 

Stand corrected: Thanks, Unventor, you are right. It's an updated version. Anyway, I am glad lift sensor is fixed. That's one of the main reasons I got KS18L.

Edited August 14, 2018 by scubadragosan

[Unventor]

5 hours ago, scubadragosan said:

Hurray! KingSong has a new firmware update, version 1.5. I download it and it fixed the lift sensor issue with KS18L. 

I doubt that is the firmware. To me that sound more like app version.

I do not see any firmware higher than 1.10 yet.

Can you share change log details? A screenshot maybe.