!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[US69]

3 hours ago, Shad0z said:

i think there must be a lot un accounted for in those numbers. 8-9 only?

2 in denmark

2 in russia

2 in france

1 in USA

plus 4 more i found in a schematic in this thread without contry information

and theyre just the ones i could find by looking through fb and forums for a few minutes

May i ask why you only Count 2 in Russia???

Cause About a week ago in this thread you had a Statement where you said that 2 in Russia are not true and that you know A LOT more of your russian Friends that had this issue?

That's About the same as you "SAW a lot Braking trolley's"....

It is really hard to discuss -such really important Things like that- with a KS hater, Sorry! I guess for my personal Wellness and not getting a “bad tone” again best is  i just block/ignore you….is btw the best idea i had since a Long time!!! 

 

 

To all  others:

That the Issue seams to be still not fixed is a shame!

I allready contacted Tina from KS....and even as it is going midnight in China Right we talked About the issue and she will get in contact with Russian Resellers and @Henrik Olsen as soon as possible in the morning! 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by US69

[Shad0z]

26 minutes ago, US69 said:

May i ask why you only Count 2 in Russia???

Cause About a week ago in this thread you had a Statement where you said that 2 in Russia are not true and that you know A LOT more of your Friends that had this issue?

That's About the same as you "SAW a lot Breaking trolley's"....

It is really hard to discuss Things like that with a KS hater, Sorry! I guess for my personal Wellness i just block you….will be the best idea i had since a Long time!!!

 

To all  others:

 

That the Issue seams to be still not fixed is a shame!

I allready contacted Tina from KS....and even as it is going midnight in China Right we talked About the issue and she will get in contact with Russian Resellers and @Henrik Olsen as soon as possible in the morning! 

 

i dont want any situation happening, lets just keep it cool  

i also did see a few more in russia on fb than 2, but i didnt count them in my post because im not sure if some of them are the same as ones on the forums and im not sure, so the ones i count in my post here is just the ones im sure of, i could go more in depth and find more, but personally i dont want to spend all my time on finding them all, i just want enough to get some awareness that its not just a small issue!

and no i dont hate kingsong. its just when you state that there are only 8-9 for sure and i have seen many i just dont agree. if i hated kingsong then i wouldnt bother to type here, the reason im typing about there being more people than 8-9 people is to bring this issue even more to the light, i want to make sure this issue is well taken care of too, and awareness is raised

and why would i hate kingsong? theyre just another company with other great wheels to choose from, thats why we have this thread to spread awareness to fix this issue 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Shad0z

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Shad0z said:

yeah i still have seen too many of them fail, they shouldnt fail. and when they do you cant carry it by the handle. 

i havent seen all of them fail, but i have seen quite a few. and thats too many

so its good if they can fix it  

but i just dont believe a little lock mechanism is enough, they should do something else to lock it in place, like hunka said. trolleys arent made to carry 40-50 lbs of weight, i think they need something more solid

I hear you, but because the trolley is retracted when its locked its not the trolley bearing the load; its the handle itself. I say we give the improved lock mechanism a chance; give the engineers a chance to do what they do. If it doesn't work, I feel confident that KS will find a solution.

[Shad0z]

16 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I hear you, but because the trolley is retracted when its locked its not the trolley bearing the load; its the handle itself. I say we give the improved lock mechanism a chance; give the engineers a chance to do what they do. If it doesn't work, I feel confident that KS will find a solution.

they just need to improve it to the point where it doesnt fail, if so very rarely, but to be honest i dont know too much about these handles, other than i seen quite a few failing, so if they improve them that would be ideal

 

[Lutalo]

18 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

they just need to improve it to the point where it doesnt fail, if so very rarely, but to be honest i dont know too much about these handles, other than i seen quite a few failing, so if they improve them that would be ideal

 

Definitely. Assuming the soft lock reinforcement for the retracted and locked trolley works, and I feel confident that they will, it would be a marked improvement. Since pushing the wheel with the trolley handle has never caused a problem (manual functions), lift and carry functions are a well prioritized focus for improvements.

[Unventor]

Well for now we know that Kingsong is still working on it. 

Despite how you and I and others feel about a product. Not all share same view nor experience.

Any feedback to a company might not be feasible to do or on the current product. But before getting all worked up, let's see what KS come up with.

I still think it is great that @US69 and KS have decided to work together for customers benefit and of course in the end should lead to happy customers that create profit for the EUCs continued development. 

Looking at Inmotion, well they are doing kinda the same, but they have their issues with V10 series. I do hope this is resolved for both companies.

I work with customer support for well known tech company. Despite employing over 200k people worldwide, we too see a product release not going as planed or hoped. Now despite how fast you want a solution as a customer, sometimes time and well tested solutions are often much better than a fast fix that makes things worse. 

[Lutalo]

8 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well for now we know that Kingsong is still working on it. 

Despite how you and I and others feel about a product. Not all share same view nor experience.

Any feedback to a company might not be feasible to do or on the current product. But before getting all worked up, let's see what KS come up with.

I still think it is great that @US69 and KS have decided to work together for customers benefit and of course in the end should lead to happy customers that create profit for the EUCs continued development. 

Looking at Inmotion, well they are doing kinda the same, but they have their issues with V10 series. I do hope this is resolved for both companies.

I work with customer support for well known tech company. Despite employing over 200k people worldwide, we too see a product release not going as planed or hoped. Now despite how fast you want a solution as a customer, sometimes time and well tested solutions are often much better than a fast fix that makes things worse. 

Well spoken my good man ??

[Jerome]

King Song did not do a exemplary job on their first productions runs in terms of QA or component selection. If current and future production runs showed those problems have been resolved than their is no KS18L problems period. The problem is just for "some" of the "early pioneers who chose to buy the first production run". If you are one of the people with a problem, of course you would be concerned/angry/frustrated, whatever.

I knew when I purchased the first production run of the KS18L that there would likely be some problems for some. I, like most people, "assumed" it would be the other guy. I was the other guy, in my trolley doesn't lock for carrying. I am annoyed that it was me, but I am not wining about it. The KS18L is everything I hope it to be. If I wanted a more secure purchase I would have waited for a few production runs or the Z10. I didn't want to wait and I am not sorry. I will get a lot riding in before the summer is over. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jerome

[US69]

2 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I hear you, but because the trolley is retracted when its locked its not the trolley bearing the load; its the handle itself. I say we give the improved lock mechanism a chance; give the engineers a chance to do what they do. If it doesn't work, I feel confident that KS will find a solution.

Exactly, because the weight is on the handle KS produced them on their own and on some models even using aluminium handles, instead of doing them in plastic....

[Unventor]

56 minutes ago, Jerome said:

King Song did not do a exemplary job on their first productions runs in terms of QA or component selection. If current and future production runs showed those problems have been resolved than their is no KS18L problems period. 

Well let me put it this way, let's say for argument, 20ish units are faulty. That number itself means nothing, unless you put it into comparison with units at risk (aka sold) vs production batch (aka from one part batch or several batches).

I doubt anyone here at forum have the insight needed to make a fair easement on this.

So what can a frustrated customer then do? Ranting about pure quality control will not fix your problem as a separate customer. 

So imho you should bring the unit to your dealer or at least raise a warranty claim. Now what the dealer do can vary, but if they get multiple reports it would be natural to a dealer to contact supplier or manufactor. Some unit might need to go back for investigation. 

Making speculation here about faults and how many units may be affected do not help anyone.

This is how warranty claim works in most places around the world. Like or not no product will ever be faultproof. This issue is annoying I totally agree. But like @us69 stastated it is not something the put rider at an immediate risk, as it is a trolley linked issue as it seems so far, from my pure insights can gather. 

[Siggy]

5 hours ago, Edddeus said:

Is it smoother than the Tesla? What is the power delivery like? What colour did you end up going for?

In short, this is a robust wheel. It handles city bumps very well and rides smooth like silk. 

- Not as wide as tesla body so I prefer it.

- 3 power delivery settings: Begineer, Medium, Experienced (aka prius, cadillac, ferrari).

- chose gloss black but not satisfied on anti scratch longevity. Arranging to change to Matte however, those units are currently sold out. 

- Will continue to test in particular with trolleying and lift sensor. To take a leaf out of tishawn fahie's book test for at least 2 weeks to be considered a "safe" wheel.

When are you getting yours @Edddeus

[Stan Onymous]

I just got back from riding it and trolleying it, and Yes even using the handle wheel disengagement function. All worked flawlessly! Really happy that this is my backup vehicle til the V10F gets addressed like these minor problems were by Kingsong. 

Yet another happy Kingsong customer.

[Lutalo]

My son and I did the new firmware1.09 upgrade. Thought that I had it already as we did the initial upgrade to 1.07 on 8/2. 

We finished the upgrade. We then turned on the lift sensor and it would not work. I was lifting it by the foot platforms because, as I have mentioned previously the soft lock feature on the handle needs replacing. Everytime I lifted the wheel from the ground the motor kept the tire spinning.

Then, a bright light in my head flashed as the sound of booming thunder resonated throughout my modest dwelling. It finally dawned on me that the lift sensor is associated with the trolley handle and won't work without sensing pressure on the handle. Since, I'm currently without the ability to lift my wheel by the handle, I turned the lift sensor off feeling a bit like Homer Simpson. DOH!???

[Lutalo]

12 minutes ago, Siggy said:

To take a leaf out of tishawn fahie's book test for at least 2 weeks to be considered a "safe" wheel.

That's a Gotway rule of thumb. Sorry dudes. Had to say it. One love.??

[Siggy]

8 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

It finally dawned on me that the lift sensor is associated with the trolley handle and won't work without sensing pressure on the handle. 

Yeaa mate, mentioned this before.

The click of the handle and the subsequent beep deactivates wheel spinning.

No handle probably = no lift sensor

6 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

That's a Gotway rule of thumb. Sorry dudes. Had to say it. One love.??

[EricGhost]

8 hours ago, nte said:

I have considered this but have not tried changing the pressure yet. It was pumped to around 35psi/2.4bar. I will continue to practice and try the tips that have been given to me. 

No that’s  too low, so low that are you sure the rim is not touching the road ? Another wobbling situation !

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[US69]

Ok, latest News in "Lock issue".....

KS China has received the board of a French Customer which had the Problem....and found the issue on that specific board!

It is a specific small Crystal oscillator ON the board, which had have a weak Welding.  A Board Hardware issue!

If this specific Oscillator has a weak Welding and the temperature is getting to low...This Crystal osciallator does not have contact with the board anymore and the Wheel freezes/locks!

That goes perfect with the Situation where this error occurs:

While trolleying for a while their is verv very low current or even very small regen current. The Temperature on board goes down while before on driving was much hoter. Perhaps some air conditioning Situation in some mall even helped more.

 

But: To make sure that this is/was the fault on all cases happening and is not Firmware related …. KS is checking on on some other board's they will receive the next days and which are on the way to them.

As of now there seams to build up some evidence that it is not Firmware....and especially not Handle sensor related! But again and to make it clear:

They are still Looking in it!!!

 

@ricqvo 

Firmware: A new Firmware which will get to a Manual calibration of the handle sensor will be released very soon, Today or tomorrow morning!

Edited August 9, 2018 by US69

[mrelwood]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:11 PM, Unventor said:

I think it is in this where some had some really nice vids on how to go over a speed bump or curve.

You might be talking about this video I made. BTW, I have since received a more powerful wheel, the MsuperX, and the technique shown in the video is now required only for tall and sharp curbs. Surprisingly big difference!

 

Glad to read the 18L issues are getting fixed!

[TomOnWheels]

33 minutes ago, US69 said:

Ok, latest News in "Lock issue".....

KS China has received the board of a French Customer which had the Problem....and found the issue on that specific board!

It is a specific small Crystal oscillator ON the board, which had have a weak Welding.  A Board Hardware issue!

If this specific Oscillator has a weak Welding and the temperature is getting to low...This Crystal osciallator does not have contact with the board anymore and the Wheel freezes/locks!

That goes perfect with the Situation where this error occurs:

While trolleying for a while their is verv very low current or even very small regen current. The Temperature on board goes down while before on driving was much hoter. Perhaps some air conditioning Situation in some mall even helped more.

 

But: To make sure that this is/was the fault on all cases happening and is not Firmware related …. KS is checking on on some other board's ey will receive the next days and which are on the way to them.

As of now there seams to build up some evidence that it is not Firmware....and especially not Handle sensor related! But again and to make it clear:

They are still Looking in it!!!

 

@ricqvo 

Firmware: A new Firmware which will get to a Manual calibration of the handle sensor will be released very soon, Today or tomorrow morning!

Woow ! Thanks for update ! I really really appreciate getting this kind of info as it give me more confidence that KS is not only a mass hardware maker that in fact do not care about what they are selling... I think, I'm a this French customer... I talk directly with @tinawong, and we decided to ship back this board for analyses. Yes my lock issue happens after quite a long walk in A/C shop. I reproduced exactly the same situation many times since I've change the board and nothing to notice anymore... All what you are saying make sense from technical point of view, and are quite surprising, because I was almost sure this is a firmware fault. I don't know how many microcontrollers there are on board and what is their role but and also I do not know firmware architecture that is running. But all in all I hope that there is a dedicated cpu for the main wheel functions (riding) and another one that deal with all extra functions like mp3, trolley, lights etc. Or that in the firmware architecture, that is supposedly running RT software, this is managed correctly from priority point of view. This is very interesting... Also I'm not sure how many information really was transmitted to KS, but my board overheat ! It was clearly smelling bad ! So what if this welding issue is the result of overheated of some other components around ?  I'm just trying to figure out if that is some production issue that of course can happens of it this is something that can be result of firmware crash that heat up components around the oscillator and result in welding issue...

[Seba]

2 hours ago, US69 said:

It is a specific small Crystal oscillator ON the board, which had have a weak Welding.  A Board Hardware issue!

This kind of hardware issue may have very serious consequences. Previously, there was a consensus that this issue is related only to trolleying, so it's safe to ride affected wheel. Now it's clear to me, that this kind of failure (cold solder joint on crystal pad) may occur at any time, also during high speed riding. This cold solder joint may cause intermittent clock failure, leading to complete microcontroller freeze - and this is why PWM stops with certain MOSFETs open, causing constant high current flowing thru the motor winding. And this kind of hardware failure will degrade further - temperature changes and vibrations will evetually cause permanent connection break. So it's a kind of bomb ticking...

 

@tinawong, please forward following idea to your R&D team members:

Please consider employing means for quick crystal oscillator failure detection and failover. Some MCUs have special hardware means for clock failover (for example CSS in some STM32 MCUs). When crystal oscillator will fail, clock will switch to another working oscillator preventing system lock-up.

If such means are not available,  it may be a hardware watchdog with relatively short timeout. It may be cleared within dedicated ISR, to be sure that WDT will be reset within timeout period. Resetting WDT in ISR is normally a bad idea, but in this particular situation clearing WDT in ISR will be beneficial. When crystal oscillator will fail, watchdog will reset MCU which on subsequent boot should switch to internal RC oscillator (HSI in STM32, for example) and enter "failsafe mode" (omit startup checks, BT etc. and go for basic wheel function - maintain balance). If all done quick, it should be enough to regain and maintain wheel/rider stability, preventing faceplant what is most important in this situation. Next, wheel may force rider to safely slow down (using tiltback) and stop or continue riding with limited, safe speed (or just to allow trolleying). I don't know what MCU is used in KS18L controller board, I don't even know detailed hardware architecture of this board. However, it's very likely that at least hardware watchdog and internal RC oscillator is available on MCU used.

Watchdog timeout and boot up time should be short enough to minimize motor lockup time, because its braking moment will work against inertia of wheel/rider. If MCU will be able to recover quick, chances are that it will be possible to prevent faceplant or just minimize its consequences. It may be also worth to consider permanently using calibrated internal RC oscillator, if exists on MCU. Higher jitter and lower frequency stability should not be an issue with motor-control application and even with UART timing (BT module has its own crystal oscillator).

Edited August 9, 2018 by Seba

[Nils]

3 hours ago, US69 said:

Ok, latest News in "Lock issue".....

[..]

 

I didn't end up buying a K18L, but it's nice to see KS being responsive and acting on this!

@US69 I don't suppose there any chance you can convince KS to make a wheel without the characteristic high pitched whining found in the current models?   That would be awesome!

[US69]

29 minutes ago, Nils said:

don't suppose there any chance you can convince KS to make a wheel without the characteristic high pitched whining found in the current models?   That would be awesome!

I dont think that  i Need to convince them todo so...they are progressing board/Firmware/Motor all the time, my guess is more that they are not able to make it totally quiet - yet!

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[Lutalo]

5 hours ago, US69 said:

It is a specific small Crystal oscillator ON the board, which had have a weak Welding.  A Board Hardware issue!

If this specific Oscillator has a weak Welding and the temperature is getting to low...This Crystal osciallator does not have contact with the board anymore and the Wheel freezes/locks!

Is the welding done by machine or by hand. If done by hand, sounds like an employee doing a poor job; a person that needs to be retrained or replaced.

If done by machine, then it's a repair or replace.

Either way, because this is a hardware issue, it seems now the challenge is finding a way to test or replace all the boards that they have disbursed to customers across the globe.