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Charles McLean

100V MSuper X ... check it out!

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22 minutes ago, bluewheel said:

That would be great indeed. Would you do the similar test for the 85V version please? It would be interesting to see the range differences between 1600vs 1200! Thanks! ?

84v i dont have. haha

22 minutes ago, bluewheel said:

That would be great indeed. Would you do the similar test for the 85V version please? It would be interesting to see the range differences between 1600vs 1200! Thanks! ?

or i did with my v3s+. thats 1600wh and 84v. i got 110km from it

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Interesting, on that link yesterday the price was 1900$, today 2100$....

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this is very interesting machine at similar price wow. So, whats next, Tesla V2 or Tesla 100v, hmmmm...

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5 minutes ago, Leonte Mihai said:

What I do not understand is, if the Msuper X 84V has 2000 watts of power and the 100V has the same 2000 watts of power then where is the difference in performance between the two?

I'm not an expert but i think it can give more energy out thus acheiving more torque and maybe top end speed 

Edited by stephen

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2 minutes ago, Leonte Mihai said:

What I do not understand is, if the Msuper X 84V has 2000 watts of power and the 100V has the same 2000 watts of power then where is the difference in performance between the two?

While I'm probably the most electrically ignorant person here, my theory is that the 100V system won't actually prove less efficient than the 84V wheel.  It's what I love about the internet; the most ignorant people are often the loudest about their theory!    

If there's one EUC spec I try to ignore when considering new wheels, it's the motor rating.  It doesn't seem to translate directly into greater initial torque, which is the most important motor characteristic. 

The 0-15km/h speed is so much more important to me than the top end speed.  I think a lot of folks are fools for even wanting a wheel that goes faster than 45km/h, which is why I've remained hyped for the Z series despite a lot of folks becoming less interested due to it's "lack of power." 

I've read some suggest that the 100V system only really increases the top end speed.  Until I learn whether it increases the 0-15km/h speed, I'm not interested.  

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Me to I'm not an expert, but if the formula:

watt / volt = ampere     give you    

2000/84 = 23,8A

and if we apply the same formula with the 100 Volt we have

2000/100 = 20A

So we have the same power with less ampere

 

But retaining the 23.8A as  possible max (?) value we have

23.8A * 100V =  2380 Watt, so about 16% more power available at the same condition...

 

 

but please, someone more experienced than me confirm if what I said is right ..

 

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I'm also no expert:whistling:, here's my take:

  • 84V is 6P battery (with 1300/1600Wh) so ~60A max. That makes a max power of 60A*84V = 5040W.
    100V is 4P battery so ~40A max. Max power: 4000W
    Because even 4000W is more than you ever need, does it matter?
  • Current ~ torque, so the 84V is snappier? I don't know. 40A is very much already, so does 40A vs 60A even matter? (Short current spikes don't count here)
  • Voltage ~ top speed, so the 100V definitely has a higher top speed.
  • Realistically, I think the 100V will 20% better (24/20=1.2), or at least a little better in all respects. That was how it was with the 100V Monster, right? A bit more direct wheel behavior vs. less battery.

TLDR: I have no idea.

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1 hour ago, Leonte Mihai said:

What I do not understand is, if the Msuper X 84V has 2000 watts of power and the 100V has the same 2000 watts of power then where is the difference in performance between the two?

Brushless motors are driven by pulses of electricity. The average voltage of those pulses is what determines the speed. The torque/acceleration is determined by the amps. When at speed with very little requirement for torque, the amps pulled from the battery will be low. In short, you get more speed from higher volts and more torque from higher amps. In this case they've lowered the available amps to increase the voltage and give you more speed. Watts = volts * amps. 2000 watts = 84v * 23.8 or you can have 2000watts = 100v * 20amps. The rating of the motor is just what it can continuously support without overheating. Finally, I want to include that just because the total available amps if the battery pack has been reduced, doesn't necessarily mean you'll have less torque, because the wheel might never have used all the available amps in the first place

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i think I'm confused now ???

someone tell us an idiot guide ?

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My guess:

The board they are using in the Msuper X was originally designed for the 100V Monster....

But then they wanted to use it for 84Volt version and wanted to apply the “Tesla behavior “...rock hard pedal setting...high speed acceleration 

As the first batch showed...this doesnt work out very well, (tiltback problems, pedal moving etc etc) and from a friend who visited the GW factory begin June i heard they where still fighting with the quirks of applying the Tesla firmware on this board. The official version is this quirks now with the second batch have been gone...(still the tire is scratching inside the shell, and the sidepads where going to heaven after some minutes).

As Z10 and 18L have also been released -now thats were my guessing starts- GW still wanted to top that all again and go the other way round....use the board as designed...for a 100V model. Afaik they sold that 100V 19inch version...until today....only to a handful persons(2!!! afaik)......(which i would call extensive beta/gamma testing) ......

I was even thinking of buying this 100volt version, too, and allready was in contacts with GW, but decided to first look how it does overtime...and think of instead going for the 84volt version....where i can interchange the battery packs with my Monster.

 

Edited by US69
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6 hours ago, stephen said:

i think I'm confused now ???

someone tell us an idiot guide ?

KISS: 100V version could be faster and/or have snappier acceleration, or it could be mostly just a business and/or marketing decision. No one at this forum knows until they have tested both versions. Only thing we do know for sure is that it has a smaller capacity battery. B)

Edited by mrelwood
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8 hours ago, esaj said:

The total capacity of the batteries is the same, if they use the same amount of cells with the same capacity. 

The 100V version is confirmed having a 1230Wh battery. It seems they couldn’t fit a 24S5P system in there. The 1600Wh 84V version has two 20S3P packs, so 120 cells total. 100V version has 24S4P, so only 96 cells.

There is some empty room at the bottom though...

Edited by mrelwood
Corrected Wh.
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14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The 100V version is confirmed having a 1280Wh battery. It seems they couldn’t fit a 24S5P system in there. The 1600Wh 84V version has two 20S3P packs, so 120 cells total. 100V version has 24S4P, so only 96 cells.

There is some empty room at the bottom though...

mine says 1230wh on the label

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4*24 cells * 3.7V nominal per cell * 3500mAh per cell = 1243.2Wh if you want a number:efee47c9c8: Some people prefer 3.6V nominal, then it's 1209.6Wh. If you use 3.65 you come pretty close to 1230.

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14 hours ago, esaj said:

EDIT: Although... the more cells you put in series (to get higher voltage), the higher the total resistance for the cell-series becomes, as the sum of the internal resistances goes up. This means more voltage drop at high amp draw, and more power lost heating the cells.

But the higher the voltage the less current is needed for the same output power. So with twice the voltage one has twice the internal resistance but only half the current - so the voltage drop at the internal resistance stays the same.

As power dissipation goes with the square of the current the losses at the internal resistance reduces for the same power output.  Have just seen with the excel sheet that the internal power loss stays the same for all this combinations :D with for example an output power of 37W:

S P V Nom 3,7 V P Out 37 W R internal 0,03 Ohm internal Loss
      U(V)     I(A)     R(Ohm)   W
1 6   3,7     10,00     0,01   0,50
2 3   7,4     5,00     0,02   0,50
3 2   11,1     3,33     0,05   0,50
6 1   22,2     1,67     0,18   0,50

 

 


 

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On 7/2/2018 at 11:53 PM, Mrd777 said:

this is amazing news, but somewhat incredibly depressing since most of us are waiting for our 84v units... ouch!

Not at all - I've paid for my MSuperX order mainly because 1600 Wh and the range it should provide. 1230Wh is close to the trio of V10F, KS18L and Z10 and more torque at super high speed doesn't make much sense for me personally.

p.s. a high speed wheel with only 4 parallels in battery sounds like a guaranteed highspeed faceplant solution.

Edited by EZhel
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3 hours ago, EUC GUY said:

I will do more hard stress testing with full gear on, the coming week. If the board dies, so be it, not expensive to get a new one and i have my other wheel to use. i can just pad it up so the shell doesnt take damage. Considering that the temps reported from the mosfets never got anything higher than 42c from hard riding up hills, i have a feeling that its not as bad.My plan is to overheat it 3 times in a row and then inspect. this will be going up and down a short and steep hill. if that looks fine afterward, ill do a long and steep hill.
:) yey

Spoken like the true die-hard rider that you are :thumbup:

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On 7/4/2018 at 12:22 PM, FULspeed said:

Me to I'm not an expert, but if the formula:

watt / volt = ampere     give you    

2000/84 = 23,8A

and if we apply the same formula with the 100 Volt we have

2000/100 = 20A

So we have the same power with less ampere

 

But retaining the 23.8A as  possible max (?) value we have

23.8A * 100V =  2380 Watt, so about 16% more power available at the same condition...

 

 

but please, someone more experienced than me confirm if what I said is right ..

 

Yes , this is correct. The advantage of higher voltage is that you use less amps for the same power (wattage). So you can use smaller components. ( mofits) The disadvantage is that it needs more isolation.   More Affected  by contamination and water.  Components also need more isolation.  I work with 480 volts 60 h.p. 

Edited by RockyTop
Spel’n
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