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4600-Foot Mountain Climb - V10F vs Tesla


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Just now, beast@tanagra said:

So that's three different models you've personally ridden up Mt. Wilson on now, right? Of the three, which gave you the best experience on the ups? The downs?

It's pretty much a wash between the ACM2 and Tesla. Of course I had bookoo more battery to play around with at the top when I rode the ACM.

I think the next wheel that I'll be riding up this mountain is the Z10, assuming that it first does OK on my mountain proving grounds.

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1 minute ago, Mark Lee said:

Great video thanks.  What was the ambient temperature on your ride?

Mid to upper 70's. High 60's at the beginning until we got above the clouds.

Edited by Marty Backe
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11 minutes ago, Sam Clegg said:

Are you sure it was overpowering and not overheating?  

According to the app that Scot was using and the voice message blaring out of the wheel, the wheel stoppage had zero to do with temperature.

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Beautiful ride!

That behaviour of the V10F is definitely strange. It should be able to do that just as well as the Tesla. Marty, how much do you weigh? This video has a drastic difference to your test with the pre-production model. That one did overload only once and in a spot where it was pretty much expected to do that. 

So far we know that it’s not the temperature (at least according to the app) nor watts used (if you saw it now only using around 1000w). On 200 pounds / 90 kg rider it overloads and 165 pounds / 75 kg rider cannot get it to do that. Is Inmotion aware of this? I have not seen them addressing this issue yet. 

 

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14 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Beautiful ride!

That behaviour of the V10F is definitely strange. It should be able to do that just as well as the Tesla. Marty, how much do you weigh? This video has a drastic difference to your test with the pre-production model. That one did overload only once and in a spot where it was pretty much expected to do that. 

So far we know that it’s not the temperature (at least according to the app) nor watts used (if you saw it now only using around 1000w). On 200 pounds / 90 kg rider it overloads and 165 pounds / 75 kg rider cannot get it to do that. Is Inmotion aware of this? I have not seen them addressing this issue yet. 

 

My pre-production V10F did not overload. It overheated. Totally different scenario. @1Wheeler had his Inmotion overload also, a couple of weeks ago during our night ride. He's also in the 200-pound range. My riding weight is ~170-pounds.

I think the consensus is that Inmotion changed the firmware. I have no idea if Inmotion is working to fix this issue, if they even consider it an issue.

The problem is certainly due to watts used. Inmotion is making the V10F operate in a very conservative manner to avoid any possibility of overloading their circuits/wiring. That's my assumption.

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You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. 

Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded?

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3 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. 

Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded?

Yes, that's what Scot was saying in the video. He was monitoring the app all of the time. It's not a lemon. I saw the same behavior in another V10F. It's by design. Most people don't ride in the mountains so Inmotion is probably not designing to this use case.

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:blink1: @maltocs your middle name doesn’t happen to be “Joshua,” is it?

http://biblehub.com/exodus/24-13.htm

Excellent ride footage and secondary camera views as well!  :popcorn:  I wondered whether if you guys switched wheels halfway up whether there would have been fewer overload warnings.  What was the temperature on the V10F?  All I kept thinking was “tow rope.”  But I guess that technically wouldn’t have helped.

@Bobwheel  Any explanations on the firmware?  Is it to keep some particular component within operating specifications?

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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FW 2.2.6? I hear it's buggy but they fixed the responsiveness problem. Let's hope the next FW will do better. It was brilliant on mountain road the last time I ride the V10F, where the pre-production Z10 overheated repeatedly. 

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5 hours ago, UniVehje said:

You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. 

Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded?

Our friend Michael was also experiencing the exact same with his V10F (orignal firmware) till he finallly gave up on that wheel..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQPnKE9RnI&t=333s

@Bobwheel That is why on an earlier post I was suggesting that Bob ensures that firmware tests are performed by a 100Kg person to have thresholds correctly adjusted and eliminate frustration just due to 'bad' firmware. Now if that is really a design issue, InMotion has a serious problem...

 

Edited by Fastmike
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5 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

:blink1: @maltocs your middle name doesn’t happen to be “Joshua,” is it?

http://biblehub.com/exodus/24-13.htm

Damn Hunka, exceptional comment! :efefae4566:

Looks like this photo was more prophetic than we could have known at the time:

IMG_20180610_192843818_HDR

Though I was thinking this already at the step off part, St. Marty and his Holy Staff, pondering "What does Got want to tell me with this?":

XNbrR.jpg

Here we go, selling stupid MB clothing, when we could make bank with the Marty organized religion!

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I work with motor drives.  If I wanted to keep a heavy 200 pound rider from overheating something I would write the software to limit torque.......... ImMotion makes nice toys.

 

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13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

According to the app that Scot was using and the voice message blaring out of the wheel, the wheel stoppage had zero to do with temperature.

Also, that behavior where the pedals tilt way back seems to match the overload behavior I see with my glide2.. so I think you are correct. 

BTW, you can disable those annoying voice messages in the app (at least for the glide2) thank god.

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16 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

@Marty Backe great video, very telling. I bet the mten would even make it.. Thanks.

I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying!

15 hours ago, Sam Clegg said:

Are you sure it was overpowering and not overheating?  

Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads.

On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware.

Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. 

Edited by maltocs
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8 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying!

Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62F. Most of the time, I was between 59F and 61F. On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69F-70F. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69F. That ride was original shipping firmware.

Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. 

Since I didn't have a working app when I took the pre-production V10F up overheat hill and it kicked me off just before the top, I had assumed that I overheated. But you are right, the message I heard was overload. So maybe it actually didn't overheat but instead overloaded, just like what you were seeing. Interesting.

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12 hours ago, maltocs said:

I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying!

Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads.

On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware.

Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. 

You are probably right with overload, but what tends to make me think heat is also involved is the fact that you had not problem at the begining and after that, it looks like that the 'overloads' happened closer and closer, as an overheat issue will do.

I am sure that we will hear back soon from Bob on that.

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31 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

You are probably right with overload, but what tends to make me think heat is also involved is the fact that you had not problem at the begining and after that, it looks like that the 'overloads' happened closer and closer, as an overheat issue will do.

I am sure that we will hear back soon from Bob on that.

It's hard for anyone to evaluate the conditions based on a video that had been edited from a 6-hour ride down to 20-minutes. In reality his wheel was overloading at about the same rate throughout the ride.

But whether it was overloading or overheating, the result was the same; an inability to enjoy a continuous ride in the mountains :(

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41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's hard for anyone to evaluate the conditions based on a video that had been edited from a 6-hour ride down to 20-minutes. In reality his wheel was overloading at about the same rate throughout the ride.

But whether it was overloading or overheating, the result was the same; an inability to enjoy a continuous ride in the mountains :(

 

14 hours ago, maltocs said:

I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying!

Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads.

On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware.

Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. 

Thanks for the great feedback! Is there an option in the apps allowing you to upload logs to InMotion for them to troubleshoot?

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