Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @maltocs joined me for my 3rd climb to the top of Mount Wilson. Scot brought his Inmotion V10F and I rode my Tesla. This was a steady 4600-foot climb to the top and took ~2-1/2-hours to complete. The round-trip, including lunch, was ~6-hours long. Sorry to report that the V10F was horrible during the climb. We lost count of how many times Scot had to climb off the wheel due to overload conditions. The wheel performed beautifully on the return trip down. The V10F was superior in my view to the Tesla in handling on this very rocky trail. The beefy tire is a big plus. And although the Tesla has 90wh more battery, the V10F seemed a bit more efficient in its energy use, but we're not sure if that's due to all the walking that Scot had to do Scot is running with the latest firmware installed on the V10F. Let's hope Inmotion ultimately fixes this, because if they keep the wheel in this ultra-conservative mode, it will remain a a poor substitute for an EUC when hill climbing is an important consideration in your use case. As it stands today (the future is unknown) I cannot recommend the V10F for anybody who wants to enjoy trail riding in the hills or mountains. The highlights (the ups and downs ) of this ride are shown in this video. Hope you enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beast@tanagra Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 So that's three different models you've personally ridden up Mt. Wilson on now, right? Of the three, which gave you the best experience on the ups? The downs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrd777 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @Marty Backe great video, very telling. I bet the mten would even make it.. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 Just now, beast@tanagra said: So that's three different models you've personally ridden up Mt. Wilson on now, right? Of the three, which gave you the best experience on the ups? The downs? It's pretty much a wash between the ACM2 and Tesla. Of course I had bookoo more battery to play around with at the top when I rode the ACM. I think the next wheel that I'll be riding up this mountain is the Z10, assuming that it first does OK on my mountain proving grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 you'll be flying up on your msx with battery left to do it again ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Lee Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Great video thanks. What was the ambient temperature on your ride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Mark Lee said: Great video thanks. What was the ambient temperature on your ride? Mid to upper 70's. High 60's at the beginning until we got above the clouds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Clegg Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Are you sure it was overpowering and not overheating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, Sam Clegg said: Are you sure it was overpowering and not overheating? According to the app that Scot was using and the voice message blaring out of the wheel, the wheel stoppage had zero to do with temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Beautiful ride! That behaviour of the V10F is definitely strange. It should be able to do that just as well as the Tesla. Marty, how much do you weigh? This video has a drastic difference to your test with the pre-production model. That one did overload only once and in a spot where it was pretty much expected to do that. So far we know that it’s not the temperature (at least according to the app) nor watts used (if you saw it now only using around 1000w). On 200 pounds / 90 kg rider it overloads and 165 pounds / 75 kg rider cannot get it to do that. Is Inmotion aware of this? I have not seen them addressing this issue yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, UniVehje said: Beautiful ride! That behaviour of the V10F is definitely strange. It should be able to do that just as well as the Tesla. Marty, how much do you weigh? This video has a drastic difference to your test with the pre-production model. That one did overload only once and in a spot where it was pretty much expected to do that. So far we know that it’s not the temperature (at least according to the app) nor watts used (if you saw it now only using around 1000w). On 200 pounds / 90 kg rider it overloads and 165 pounds / 75 kg rider cannot get it to do that. Is Inmotion aware of this? I have not seen them addressing this issue yet. My pre-production V10F did not overload. It overheated. Totally different scenario. @1Wheeler had his Inmotion overload also, a couple of weeks ago during our night ride. He's also in the 200-pound range. My riding weight is ~170-pounds. I think the consensus is that Inmotion changed the firmware. I have no idea if Inmotion is working to fix this issue, if they even consider it an issue. The problem is certainly due to watts used. Inmotion is making the V10F operate in a very conservative manner to avoid any possibility of overloading their circuits/wiring. That's my assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, UniVehje said: You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded? Yes, that's what Scot was saying in the video. He was monitoring the app all of the time. It's not a lemon. I saw the same behavior in another V10F. It's by design. Most people don't ride in the mountains so Inmotion is probably not designing to this use case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @maltocs your middle name doesn’t happen to be “Joshua,” is it? http://biblehub.com/exodus/24-13.htm Excellent ride footage and secondary camera views as well! I wondered whether if you guys switched wheels halfway up whether there would have been fewer overload warnings. What was the temperature on the V10F? All I kept thinking was “tow rope.” But I guess that technically wouldn’t have helped. @Bobwheel Any explanations on the firmware? Is it to keep some particular component within operating specifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 FW 2.2.6? I hear it's buggy but they fixed the responsiveness problem. Let's hope the next FW will do better. It was brilliant on mountain road the last time I ride the V10F, where the pre-production Z10 overheated repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastmike Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 5 hours ago, UniVehje said: You are probably right in your assumption about the firmware. It shouldn’t be the hardware if it’s not a lemon. The latest firmware is all over the place anyway. Did you guys monitor the app to see what kind of usage it was under when it overloaded? Our friend Michael was also experiencing the exact same with his V10F (orignal firmware) till he finallly gave up on that wheel.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQPnKE9RnI&t=333s @Bobwheel That is why on an earlier post I was suggesting that Bob ensures that firmware tests are performed by a 100Kg person to have thresholds correctly adjusted and eliminate frustration just due to 'bad' firmware. Now if that is really a design issue, InMotion has a serious problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 5 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @maltocs your middle name doesn’t happen to be “Joshua,” is it? http://biblehub.com/exodus/24-13.htm Damn Hunka, exceptional comment! Looks like this photo was more prophetic than we could have known at the time: Though I was thinking this already at the step off part, St. Marty and his Holy Staff, pondering "What does Got want to tell me with this?": Here we go, selling stupid MB clothing, when we could make bank with the Marty organized religion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I work with motor drives. If I wanted to keep a heavy 200 pound rider from overheating something I would write the software to limit torque.......... ImMotion makes nice toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Clegg Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 13 hours ago, Marty Backe said: According to the app that Scot was using and the voice message blaring out of the wheel, the wheel stoppage had zero to do with temperature. Also, that behavior where the pedals tilt way back seems to match the overload behavior I see with my glide2.. so I think you are correct. BTW, you can disable those annoying voice messages in the app (at least for the glide2) thank god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltocs Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 16 hours ago, Mrd777 said: @Marty Backe great video, very telling. I bet the mten would even make it.. Thanks. I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying! 15 hours ago, Sam Clegg said: Are you sure it was overpowering and not overheating? Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads. On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware. Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, maltocs said: I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying! Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62F. Most of the time, I was between 59F and 61F. On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69F-70F. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69F. That ride was original shipping firmware. Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. Since I didn't have a working app when I took the pre-production V10F up overheat hill and it kicked me off just before the top, I had assumed that I overheated. But you are right, the message I heard was overload. So maybe it actually didn't overheat but instead overloaded, just like what you were seeing. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastmike Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 12 hours ago, maltocs said: I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying! Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads. On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware. Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. You are probably right with overload, but what tends to make me think heat is also involved is the fact that you had not problem at the begining and after that, it looks like that the 'overloads' happened closer and closer, as an overheat issue will do. I am sure that we will hear back soon from Bob on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 31 minutes ago, Fastmike said: You are probably right with overload, but what tends to make me think heat is also involved is the fact that you had not problem at the begining and after that, it looks like that the 'overloads' happened closer and closer, as an overheat issue will do. I am sure that we will hear back soon from Bob on that. It's hard for anyone to evaluate the conditions based on a video that had been edited from a 6-hour ride down to 20-minutes. In reality his wheel was overloading at about the same rate throughout the ride. But whether it was overloading or overheating, the result was the same; an inability to enjoy a continuous ride in the mountains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastmike Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 That's a valuable piece of information! Thanks Marty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastmike Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: It's hard for anyone to evaluate the conditions based on a video that had been edited from a 6-hour ride down to 20-minutes. In reality his wheel was overloading at about the same rate throughout the ride. But whether it was overloading or overheating, the result was the same; an inability to enjoy a continuous ride in the mountains 14 hours ago, maltocs said: I would LOVE to take my MTen3 up that hill, I just don't want to risk anything frying! Since I could never get my wheellog to connect to the InMotion, i only use the official InMotion App to connect. That app shows current temp and max Wattage since the unit was turned on. Turning the unit off and back on resets the max wattage, but of course the temp is still current. I never saw my max wattage go higher than 1100 and my temps never went higher than 62C. Most of the time, I was between 59C and 61C. Mind you, I was babying my ride up the hill due to all the overloads. On my Palm Springs 111F in the shade test up a steeper hill, it was cutting out about the same amount and my temps were consistently 69C-70C. That was only a 2m uphill and near the top, it wouldn't restart for another probably 10m. It could have been less, I know I needed 10m myself in that heat. But when it did allow me to restart, it was STILL 69C. That ride was original shipping firmware. Also, I could be wrong, but looking at the different audio warning messages available, I don't think there is an OVERHEAT warning, only overLOAD. Thanks for the great feedback! Is there an option in the apps allowing you to upload logs to InMotion for them to troubleshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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