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n2eus

100V Monster water intrusion vulnerabilities

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Unlike the previous version of Gotway Monster (fans on the side of main board), the 100V Monster has a new vulnerability.  The fans of the 100V Monster are located on the bottom of the main board in direct line of fire of water drops from above, and the soldered fan wires appear to be exposed with no protection from water.

My 100V Monster failed twice in the same manner immediately following several drops of water entering the right front spare portal area during my attempted to clean the outside.  Both times I was trying to minimize drops of water near the top.

During restoration from the previous repair of water damage, I applied Locktite Polyseamseal silicone to the side cover edges, screw holes, and all around the spare ports in the top of the shell.  I didn't let the Polyseamseal dry (maybe I should have? and maybe I should have used a thicker bead?) before screwing the side covers in place.  I also used electronic grade RTV silicone rubber 704 for protecting the replacement rear LED connection on the main board.  All functions were returned to service.  The Monster flawlessly completed a Griffith Park ride.  The morning after that ride, I filled a small tub with slightly soapy water and dipped a brush to clean the dirt off the shell and tire.  I was especially careful near the top spare ports to minimize water intrusion.  However, similar to the first time (several weeks ago) when I sprayed water, the Monster started exhibiting erratic behavior:  The Monster turned itself ON and the balancing function started to rapidly oscillate for approximately five seconds then stopped balancing.  The alarm beeper was emitting three quick beeps with a pause repeatedly.  The rear LED had only the top and bottom LEDs illuminated green.  The front LED was erratically flashing.  I placed the Monster on the left side and kept turning it off untill I had the side cover removed.

With the right side cover removed, I heard a low volume hissing or sizzling sound emminating from the main board.  Threre are signs of damage on the main board near the small electrolytic capacitor (at the bottom of the main board) which may have leaked out some electrolyte.  I inspected everywhere under lighting and magnification.  Several drops of water intruded into the same locations as the first time.  The XT60 connector for the battery connection to the main board shows corrosion from the first water intrusion.  Most of the drops of water from both water intrusion events ended up in the fans.  This is not surprizing, because as stated above, the new fans on the bottom of the main board are in direct line of fire of the water drops.  Based on my previous experiences, I believe it is likely that the water shorting of the fan wires loads the main board power supply voltages erratically, causing all the described behavior.

This Monster needs a new main board and possibly a new rear LED board.  I don't know what other damage may exist.  I also don't know how to redesign/correct these new vulnerabilities of the 100V Monster that are not problematic in the old version of the Monster.

SOLUTION FOR PREVENTING WATER INTRUSION?

This is where we need input from our waterproofing experts.  I'm only starting my research now, but I'm looking for answers to questions such as:

1.  What product or method should I use to remove the corrosion in the XT60 connector, in order to prevent a high resistance connection?

2.  What product or method should be used to protect the exposed electrical conductors from water?

3.  What product or method should be used to waterproof the side covers and top spare ports?

4.  Other suggestions?

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Wow, this is really disconcerting Dan. You must be bummed by all these problems.

I must say I'm not sure that I've ever cleaned my Monster except for maybe a damp sponge :unsure: Now I probably won't, even though we have different models.

What's odd is that @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" actually submerged his 1st gen Monster in a river for a handful of seconds. No permanent damage ensued. I wonder why yours is so much more sensitive.

@EUC GUY has some good posts/videos about water proofing his wheels (MSuper and ACM). I imagine the same techniques could be applied to the Monster.

I hope you relay your problems to Jason. He's pretty good about getting feedback to Gotway.

Edited by Marty Backe

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, this is really disconcerting Dan. You must be bummed by all these problems.

I must say I'm not sure that I've ever cleaned my Monster except for maybe a damp sponge :unsure: Now I probably won't, even though we have different models.

What's odd is that @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" actually submerged his 1st gen Monster in a river for a handful of seconds. No permanent damage ensued. I wonder why yours is so much more sensitive.

@EUC GUY has some good posts/videos about water proofing his wheels (MSuper and ACM). I imagine the same techniques could be applied to the Monster.

I hope you relay your problems to Jason. He's pretty good about getting feedback to Gotway.

Yes, Jason has already told me he is going to inform Gotway of this new vulnerability.

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Wow! Way to go Gotway!

The first Monster (very expensive) suffers with a poorly designed case - especially around the top/handle/lights areas and now the new 100v (also very expensive) also suffers with easily taking on water. :( I used to commute in all weathers on my Monster so a problem/risk like this would have been seriously bad for me.

When you're paying that sort of money for a machine you definitely don't want stupid little faults that end up costing even more money. It's not worth throwing so much money at such a pricey EUC because you lose even more if you sell on. 

I think it's about time Gotway spent more time looking at SAFETY! Their problems could end up killing someone. 

I hope you get this waterproofing sussed out and that your repair costs aren't too high, in particular you don't have any damaged batteries because the price of those is ridiculous. :( 

Stay safe!

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12 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Liquid electrical tape, silicone fusing tape, 3M conformal coating spray, neutral cure silicone sealant, etc...

 

Thanks, I'll check the specs on those products.  Sounds perfect.

3 hours ago, EUC GUY said:

For those interested, Cover the axel nut and the space around with liquid tape.2330_std_1488320819.jpg

can also use it to cover the edge around the sidepanels. just let it dry before screwing things back together. If you apply a few coats then removal is easy.

can also cover electronics directly with it "fan" cables as an example or the xt60 connector. just submerge it. :) make sure its completly dry before plugging power in. its all written on the box

 

Thanks.

1 hour ago, esaj said:

I'd say replace the entire connector, XT60's cost peanuts. If you don't have a soldering iron or don't know how to do it, try to ask around friends, probably someone has the tools and knows how to do it (especially if they're into RCs or such).

I guess there are some rust removal products, but usually rust is removed by sanding it away, which of course would make the connection even worse. "Tip tinners" and highly activated fluxes used in soldering have strong (rosin?) flux that strips oxygen from soldering tips, but I don't know how well that would work with connectors. Probably not worth to even try it.

 

Conformal coatings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating ) should work fine, as long as they can withstand the temperature... even electrical or duct tape would probably be better than nothing? ;)

 

I've used "normal" waterproof bathroom sealing silicone for the Firewheel.

 

Thanks.  Did you let the sealant dry before screwing the side covers on?

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On 6/27/2018 at 12:34 AM, n2eus said:

Unlike the previous version of Gotway Monster (fans on the side of main board), the 100V Monster has a new vulnerability.  The fans of the 100V Monster are located on the bottom of the main board in direct line of fire of water drops from above, and the soldered fan wires appear to be exposed with no protection from water.

My 100V Monster failed twice in the same manner immediately following several drops of water entering the right front spare portal area during my attempted to clean the outside.  Both times I was trying to minimize drops of water near the top.

I'm curious. Could you take pictures of the "vulnerabilities" like holes/portals and other places where water could enter the compartment.

I'm kind of ambivalent in my yearnings, bouncing between the 100V Monster and the MSuperX. But whatever I finally decide to spend my hard earned money on, waterproofing will most certainly be part of the process.

I would like to be able to judge how hard/easy waterproofing might be, so any info and pictures will be very helpful.

On my GT16 I use silicone tape, bathroom silicone putty and conformal coating, since Rockwheel couldn't be bothered protecting the electronics themselves... :D 

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11 hours ago, Scatcat said:

I'm curious. Could you take pictures of the "vulnerabilities" like holes/portals and other places where water could enter the compartment.

I'm kind of ambivalent in my yearnings, bouncing between the 100V Monster and the MSuperX. But whatever I finally decide to spend my hard earned money on, waterproofing will most certainly be part of the process.

I would like to be able to judge how hard/easy waterproofing might be, so any info and pictures will be very helpful.

On my GT16 I use silicone tape, bathroom silicone putty and conformal coating, since Rockwheel couldn't be bothered protecting the electronics themselves... :D 

This portal (in photo) is the most problematic area for intrusion.  I believe the small gaps in the top are not difficult to waterproof if done correctly (Not like my first attempt).  I have ordered three products for the waterproofing, and will post the method later.

water entry.jpg

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Once again we see Gotway rushing product with out take better care of design etc. Im comparing it to Z10 and more and more Im surprised the attention to detail of that machine. Ninebot, I will patiently wait for near perfect product.

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14 hours ago, n2eus said:

This portal (in photo) is the most problematic area for intrusion.  I believe the small gaps in the top are not difficult to waterproof if done correctly (Not like my first attempt).  I have ordered three products for the waterproofing, and will post the method later.

water entry.jpg

I suspected that was it.

I'd say it should be fairly simple to waterproof. But at the same time there is a geometry problem with the card just below and behind, with fans that may catch water droplets and blow them towards the board...

I'd spray some conformal coating on the board. That is not fool-proof, but will at least serve to make sure 99% of the moisture hitting the card wont do any damage.

I'd also consider something as simple as a plastic wafer as a shield between the board and the cable port, preferably long enough to cover most of the side of the card towards the port. That way any drops getting through anyway may not get sucked into the fans. You could probably use the wires to anchor such a plastic wafer securely enough.

I'd have to say though, that Gotway hasn't really thought the geometry through in terms of water-proofing. Compare with the MSuper X, where they actually though about a labyrinth trap for the air inlet...

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4 hours ago, Scatcat said:

I suspected that was it.

I'd say it should be fairly simple to waterproof. But at the same time there is a geometry problem with the card just below and behind, with fans that may catch water droplets and blow them towards the board...

I'd spray some conformal coating on the board. That is not fool-proof, but will at least serve to make sure 99% of the moisture hitting the card wont do any damage.

I'd also consider something as simple as a plastic wafer as a shield between the board and the cable port, preferably long enough to cover most of the side of the card towards the port. That way any drops getting through anyway may not get sucked into the fans. You could probably use the wires to anchor such a plastic wafer securely enough.

I'd have to say though, that Gotway hasn't really thought the geometry through in terms of water-proofing. Compare with the MSuper X, where they actually though about a labyrinth trap for the air inlet...

There's no conformal coating on the board? At least the ACM -board I got off Rehab1 did have coating (unfortunately), I had to soak it in isopropanol to soften it and scratch it off with a tooth brush and nails... :P 

As for the fans, maybe adding something like a plastic foam filter would at least keep droplets away? 

foam-filter-sponge-sheets.jpg_350x350.jp

Maybe "less dense" than that though

 

Edited by esaj

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On 6/29/2018 at 6:10 PM, esaj said:

There's no conformal coating on the board? At least the ACM -board I got off Rehab1 did have coating (unfortunately), I had to soak it in isopropanol to soften it and scratch it off with a tooth brush and nails... :P 

As for the fans, maybe adding something like a plastic foam filter would at least keep droplets away? 

foam-filter-sponge-sheets.jpg_350x350.jp

Maybe "less dense" than that though

 

Maybe there IS conformal coating. But obviously it didn't stop the capacitors from shorting (if that was what happened).

A filter like in your post would probably solve the whole problem. Ideally it would still let air through, but stop water droplets. My guess would be it wouldn't be that hard to make such a solution, and that it would be pretty effective. Even a bloody impregnated paper mounted and curved correctly and fastened with some 3M double tape would probably do the trick quite handsomely...

Edited by Scatcat

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The cause of my failed weatherproofing attempt was insufficient silicone coverage between the side covers and portal covers.  This time, I implemented multiple barriers to protect the system from rainy weather.  Thanks to @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, @esaj, @Marty Backe, @EUC GUY, @Scatcat for helping me with methodology.

The new main board arrived with excess rubber sheet (under MOSFETs) blocking the fan air flow.  I used 350F RTV to glue the rubber sheet to the aluminum plate (no longer blocking air flow).  I was surprised to see that my original board had no heat sink fins on the aluminum plate, and the mounting screws were not threaded into the shell standoffs (just the tips into the shell).  The beauty of the new board suddenly became apparent; more efficient cooling of both sides of the board and stronger mounting (3 of 4 screws use the standoffs).  Heat sink fins are included on the new aluminum plate and the circuits are relocated to place the MOSFETs more directly in the cooling air path.

I replaced the damaged rear LED strip with LED strip I found on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077F9J9LC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I painted conformal coating over all conductors on the fans and board that appeared exposed.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008O9YIV6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I painted liquid electrical tape over motor connectors and XT60 connectors.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BO93RG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I applied electronic grade 704 silicone on the other connectors on the main board.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KH7456U/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I applied a layer of 350F RTV to the shell where the side covers seat.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NU6VN6G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I let that gasket completely dry for 24 hours (cover off), then applied thick layers on the portal covers and side covers where the dry RTV gasket doesn't reach.  Installed the side covers, ensuring the RTV completely seals the gaps near the portals.  Later, I added more liquid electrical tape over the seams near the portals.

Riding this machine is pure pleasure.
 

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If they made everything inside waterproof with conformal coatings, waterproof connectors, sealed up batteries, etc... they wouldn't need to worry about water ingress that much since it wouldn't make a difference.  Now, if they went all out and waterproofed the inside and the shell (or at least preventing water ingress into the CB/battery compartments) we would have dual layers of protection!  :w00t2:

How's the Monster been holding up since your mods @n2eus?  I still need to do some of that to my Telsa just in case.

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1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

If they made everything inside waterproof with conformal coatings, waterproof connectors, sealed up batteries, etc... they wouldn't need to worry about water ingress that much since it wouldn't make a difference.  Now, if they went all out and waterproofed the inside and the shell (or at least preventing water ingress into the CB/battery compartments) we would have dual layers of protection!  :w00t2:

How's the Monster been holding up since your mods @n2eus?  I still need to do some of that to my Telsa just in case.

The Monster is doing great.  I believe the weatherproofing mods will protect from light sprays.  However, I don't spray the top with water any more.  My Tesla and MS3S+ have always been cleaned with a hose, minimizing spray around the trolley handles.

I think your Tesla should be fine in light rain, if you don't dunk it into a river for more than a moment (that's when the extra layers could help.)  

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@n2eus  I am thinking about conformal coating my gotway tesla as an extra precuation (I've already sealed off the shell with silicone.

I had a few questions.

  1.  Do I need to prepare the board before applying conformal coating. I already got a uv light and didn't seen any indication that it was previously applied, however I do see a glossy layer over the newer gotway board (don't know what that is - doesn't give off any uv light).
  2. Can I paint the whole board or do I avoid certain areas like the mosfets?
  3. Did you have any problems with overheating after applying the conformal coating or any issues in general.

Thanks very much!!!

Spoiler

 

 

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15 hours ago, gotnothing said:

@n2eus  I am thinking about conformal coating my gotway tesla as an extra precuation (I've already sealed off the shell with silicone.

I had a few questions.

  1.  Do I need to prepare the board before applying conformal coating. I already got a uv light and didn't seen any indication that it was previously applied, however I do see a glossy layer over the newer gotway board (don't know what that is - doesn't give off any uv light).
  2. Can I paint the whole board or do I avoid certain areas like the mosfets?
  3. Did you have any problems with overheating after applying the conformal coating or any issues in general.

Thanks very much!!!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I have limited experience (I just follow the product instructions), but I would ensure the board is clean if it has become dusty, prior to applying the product.

I remember that in specific areas that cannot tolerate a reduction in heat dissipation, spraying may effect board performance.  I believe these are rare cases, but I don't know.  Maybe someone with more knowledge could add to this.

I sprayed all surfaces and observed no differences in operating temperatures.

Edited by n2eus

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13 hours ago, gotnothing said:

How did you clean the board?

I used compressed air to remove dust.  In dirtier cases, I've used a light brush and isopropyl.

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Oh ok, that makes sense.

I got the brush on kind instead of the spray on kind.

Did you end up spraying it over the mosfets as well? I was under the impression that those tend to heat up the most.

 

BTW I apologize if I am bugging you with too many questions - just not much out there in terms of people applying this.

After my wheel gave out on me from riding in the rain, I want to make sure that I get the rain-proofing right since it basically rains here for half the year and it has become an extension of my legs.

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