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EUC Information Fairness


Jerome
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2 hours ago, Jerome said:

I am not justifying Gotways QA. I'm just saying we just need to notify people that it exist not go on a crusade. The current V10F problems can cause face plants. Shall we bad mouth Inmotion for the next two years after they fix the problem that their wheel had extreme tiltback and cut-off beware? I think you may be attributing the 15% failure rate to "face planting" I suspect a large number were DOA or didn't work correctly enough to ride and face-plant. Other than the MCM5 I have no desire to buy a Gotway, BUT, only because I don't need the "ultimate" range and I don't like the styling of all but the Tesla and MCM5. I am curious, have you had a bad face plant on a defective Gotway or stranded somewhere because something fell-off or broke on a Gotway not cause by you? What's the basis of your crusade?

The fairness theme extends to all brands. I will be getting a King Song 18L. I will report about it based on actual riding. I will not defend weaknesses or fall-back on its pedigree for justification of any problems. I will also sing its praises if it does what I want for a long time to come. Fairness is not attacking the Z10 because of some second hand, subjective beta reports. It "appears" that some if not all of the mud-slinging might be unfounded. I literally saw people change their mind on buying a Z10 because of all the conjecture on a product that has not made it to market. Fairness is staying on the V10F issue until it is resolve and future shipments bare that out. Those who expound the importance of safety may have to admit that a large battery Gotway riding at 18-22 mph is never likely to have a title-back or overheat and will probably run without trouble for years. I'm hoping my KS18L will. We shall see.

I have no crusade against Gotway. But until they prove they have consistently and reliably upped their game (which they have started to do) I would not buy one and I will not recommend a wheel I personally would not want to buy. Hopefully the next round of stats will prove their reliability is improving. When I brought my wheel last June I wasn't interested in KingSong. The S series made KingSong reputable and to me it wasn't proven at the time. Now, I'd like an 18S because KingSong have shown some good workmanship. They've won me over. 

You blame people for abandoning the Z10 but the reports of of China were dire. $1600 is a lot of money. I wouldn't want to hand that over for a crap wheel. I don't blame people for having second thoughts when so many other great wheels were on offer. 

As for the V10. Yes the firmware issue is disappointing but the wheel isn't throwing riders to the ground and your are suggesting Inmotion be punished for one buggy firmware update (that right now doesn't even compare to the Gotway oscillation issue) in the same manner you feel Gotway had been punished for a high incidence of statistically proven failures. 

I'm not sure what your beef is. Some people hate Gotway. Some love Gotway. Some are indifferent. When a large number of us get involved in a discussion you will have a mix of all views and as people see reliability and feel more comfortable with Gotway products the overall opinion will shift towards recommendation. 

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4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

Strong argument against the statistics.  

I know there's a desire to minimize quoted text, but it really is useful to provide some context for rebuttal text. Otherwise it's almost a wasted post because we have no idea  what the comment is about.

In the context of the posts in this thread, I don't understand what you just wrote (but I'd like to).

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2 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

I have no crusade against Gotway. But until they prove they have consistently and reliably upped their game (which they have started to do) I would not buy one and I will not recommend a wheel I personally would not want to buy. Hopefully the next round of stats will prove their reliability is improving. When I brought my wheel last June I wasn't interested in KingSong. The S series made KingSong reputable and to me it wasn't proven at the time. Now, I'd like an 18S because KingSong have shown some good workmanship. They've won me over. 

You blame people for abandoning the Z10 but the reports of of China were dire. $1600 is a lot of money. I wouldn't want to hand that over for a crap wheel. I don't blame people for having second thoughts when so many other great wheels were on offer. 

As for the V10. Yes the firmware issue is disappointing but the wheel isn't throwing riders to the ground and your are suggesting Inmotion be punished for one buggy firmware update (that right now doesn't even compare to the Gotway oscillation issue) in the same manner you feel Gotway had been punished for a high incidence of statistically proven failures. 

I'm not sure what your beef is. Some people hate Gotway. Some love Gotway. Some are indifferent. When a large number of us get involved in a discussion you will have a mix of all views and as people see reliability and feel more comfortable with Gotway products the overall opinion will shift towards recommendation. 

? I have no beef. You  seem like a nice guy and I "understand" your point of view, so I shall move on. No worries. 

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For somebody looking at buying their first wheel, safety is especially important. They're already taking a huge leap of faith just spending big money on a comparatively dangerous transportation device that is exceptionally difficult to learn, relative to bikes or scooters. 

Even Marty, the biggest Gotway fan, his first EUC was a KingSong, I believe, the 14B or 14C.

I went with a Gotway MCM3 as my first wheel because of economics, but if I had the choice I would have picked a Kingsong 14D or 14S or 16S for safety reasons. Actually I probably would have just bought a Tesla ?

 

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4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

:blink:

Sorry Kemosabe, but you've got your facts wrong :D My first wheel and the one I learned on was the ACM

Sorry to undercut your argument :whistling:

?

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5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I know there's a desire to minimize quoted text, but it really is useful to provide some context for rebuttal text. Otherwise it's almost a wasted post because we have no idea  what the comment is about.

In the context of the posts in this thread, I don't understand what you just wrote (but I'd like to).

I'm saying that the poster didn't respond in any way to the argument about the use of statistics to provide objective data about wheel failure rates.  I'm honestly starting to think that some folks are operating with a different intellectual tool kit than others, and that's why there appears to be room for disagreement on a subject such as this. 

It's why I suggested in my initial post that it's possible a lack of understanding of statistics could underlie the disagreement.  I've seen you, and now this poster, appear to fundamentally lack that understanding in your arguments.  That's not a criticism; it's an observation.  I thought it was simply a willful omission to avoid evidence inconvenient to your argument, but I'm not so sure.  I've also questioned the understanding of principles of argumentation before..ie: what constitutes evidence or what are valid logical forms of arguments.    

My default assumption has been that folks like yourself and OP are in denial because of your emotional attachment to the brand about Gotway's history of reliability.  I still believe that, but I'm forced to question whether it's also a difficult in interpreting evidence.  

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4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I'm saying that the poster didn't respond in any way to the argument about the use of statistics to provide objective data about wheel failure rates.  I'm honestly starting to think that some folks are operating with a different intellectual tool kit than others, and that's why there appears to be room for disagreement on a subject such as this. 

It's why I suggested in my initial post that it's possible a lack of understanding of statistics could underlie the disagreement.  I've seen you, and now this poster, appear to fundamentally lack that understanding in your arguments.  That's not a criticism; it's an observation.  I thought it was simply a willful omission to avoid evidence inconvenient to your argument, but I'm not so sure.  I've also questioned the understanding of principles of argumentation before..ie: what constitutes evidence or what are valid logical forms of arguments.    

My default assumption has been that folks like yourself and OP are in denial because of your emotional attachment to the brand about Gotway's history of reliability.  I still believe that, but I'm forced to question whether it's also a difficult in interpreting evidence.  

Way to make friends and influence people :facepalm:  Consider freeing up some of your excess intellectual bandwidth and read "How To Win Friends & Influence People" - it's a classic for a reason.

Edited by Marty Backe
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4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I'm saying that the poster didn't respond in any way to the argument about the use of statistics to provide objective data about wheel failure rates.  I'm honestly starting to think that some folks are operating with a different intellectual tool kit than others, and that's why there appears to be room for disagreement on a subject such as this. 

It's why I suggested in my initial post that it's possible a lack of understanding of statistics could underlie the disagreement.  I've seen you, and now this poster, appear to fundamentally lack that understanding in your arguments.  That's not a criticism; it's an observation.  I thought it was simply a willful omission to avoid evidence inconvenient to your argument, but I'm not so sure.  I've also questioned the understanding of principles of argumentation before..ie: what constitutes evidence or what are valid logical forms of arguments.    

My default assumption has been that folks like yourself and OP are in denial because of your emotional attachment to the brand about Gotway's history of reliability.  I still believe that, but I'm forced to question whether it's also a difficult in interpreting evidence.  

 

4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I'm saying that the poster didn't respond in any way to the argument about the use of statistics to provide objective data about wheel failure rates.  I'm honestly starting to think that some folks are operating with a different intellectual tool kit than others, and that's why there appears to be room for disagreement on a subject such as this. 

It's why I suggested in my initial post that it's possible a lack of understanding of statistics could underlie the disagreement.  I've seen you, and now this poster, appear to fundamentally lack that understanding in your arguments.  That's not a criticism; it's an observation.  I thought it was simply a willful omission to avoid evidence inconvenient to your argument, but I'm not so sure.  I've also questioned the understanding of principles of argumentation before..ie: what constitutes evidence or what are valid logical forms of arguments.    

My default assumption has been that folks like yourself and OP are in denial because of your emotional attachment to the brand about Gotway's history of reliability.  I still believe that, but I'm forced to question whether it's also a difficult in interpreting evidence.  

Oh brother this is almost laughable. Do you understand statistics? Figures don't lie but liars figure. Numbers not derived from an empirically controlled data source is seat-of-the-pants my friend. Who are the owners of each brand of EUC? How do they ride their EUC? What terrain do they traverse on their EUC? How do they charge, store, bang around their EUC? What is the graph for EUCs that are DOA versus those that come in for repair later? Is there brand bias by the reporting shops due to past experiences or personal preferences do to the brands they sell? Are some brands getting better while others are getting worse or staying the same? Are certain models skewing the data to make the whole line look bad? How many people did their own repair so their is no shop record? How current are the numbers?  Most of the professors I know are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to the student who starts off with a "C" but has progress to "B+" by the end of the semester versus the student who starts off with an "A" and drops to a "B+".  

I "Believe" that Jason and others have received batches of Tesla, ACM2s, etc. that had a high failure rate 15% - whatever.  I think Jason has considered dropping Gotways or at least certain models from time-to-time. Gotway is hard to ditch, however, because they are like the "BORG" they correct the problem with the very next production run. 

Let me say a word or two about safety. That bad batch of firmware that caused the MSuper to cut-off after hitting a bump was about as bad as it gets. I am unaware of a batch of models with such a systemic flaw since then. Yet that firmware issue that was fixed almost immediately is still being used as the bad wheel poster child.  It is not a safety issue if you receive a DOA wheel. Its is not a safety issue if something doesn't work right as long as it doesn't create cut-off or the pedal to fall off, etc. Poor build quality might effect longevity or re-sale value but it is not in itself a safety factor. A blown fuse is a safety issue. A violent tilt-back is a safety issue. There is no way a blown fuse or violent tilt-back can make you safer! They are used to protect the motor-board or be an example of rider concern in some possible future litigation.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Way to make friends and influence people :facepalm:  Consider freeing up some of your excess intellectual bandwidth and read "How To Win Friends & Influence People" - it's a classic for a reason.

You're here to make friends and be popular.  I'm here to get useful information about EUCs.  Big difference.  

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4 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

You're here to make friends and be popular.  I'm here to get useful information about EUCs.  Big difference.  

Meez that's how you get more information by becoming friends with people who know more than you.  They will be more motivated to give that extra you don't suspect...

Edited by Mark Lee
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4 minutes ago, Mark Lee said:

Meez that's how you get more information by becoming friends with people who know more than you...

On the internet, one can also gain information by exchanging facts impersonally.  Establishing a personal relationship before exchanging information hopefully shouldn't be a prerequisite.  

I understand others feel I was rude.  I was attempting to be honest in explaining my confusion about why such a simple concept as applying the information provided by major EUC sellers about their reliability was being challenged without even attempting to address the argument for it's usefulness.  It was hard for me to rationalize how someone could fail to understand the logic being applied and therefore I was left trying to understand why that information wasn't deemed relevant.  

Edited by mezzanine
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I'd add that both Jason and Ecodrift voiced their opinion, alongside the statistics they provided, that it wasn't worth it for them to sell Gotways due to their lack of reliability.  Ecodrift actually stopped selling Gotways altogether.  Jason hired a full-time repair person specifically so he could continue to carry Gotways.  

There's an EUC seller out in Vancouver that was clearing out their remaining Gotways and was vocal about trying get out from under possible warranty claims.  

I mean, it's shameful that we're even debating that it's been an issue, historically.  

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