Carastro Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I propose that we advanced in the ideal laws for the EU. So, we can colaborate in the future reflexion in our countries. What do you thing about helmet, max speed, ride in the street or in the sidewalk, share lane with bikes... Other important thinks to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The more laws, the worse it will be. And that is surely coming when the legislatures catch up. How about this: Don't harm nor injure anyone that is not yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I wouldn't mind mandatory helmets, as I ride with one anyway, but I know most people seem to oppose them. Max speed should be 30km/h to keep up with bicycle traffic, or simply separate clear speed limits on the bike paths themselves, and not on the vehicles. Here in Finland the current law proposal separates two types of self-balancing vehicles: those which go 15km/h max (which pretty much rules out all EUCs, as most have at least 18km/h stated max speed, although might leave some slower generics and Airwheels), that are viewed as pedestrians in the eyes of the law, and those that can go up to 25km/h, which are regarded as bicycles. Both can be ridden on pedestrian-only sidewalks (so you don't have to ride in the car lane), as long as the speed is "adjusted to pedestrian traffic" or something along those lines.The separation is plain stupid, as most people won't be able to tell apart EUCs that can go up to 15km/h and those that can go up to 25km/h. Simply making them "bicycles", with the additional possibility of riding on pedestrian-only lanes with slower speeds would make it much clearer (as there are laws regarding right of way etc. that are different for pedestrian vs. bike vs. car). If I'm riding on a bike, and can't tell from the outlook of the EUC whether it's a "bike" or a "pedestrian", I simply always have to give right of way to the rider, as pedestrians always have the right of way. Unless there's clearly separated bike-lane and pedestrian-only lane, pedestrians can always walk on bikelanes as they like and they have the right of way.I know cyclists will be pretty pissed at this, plus at the slower vehicles on bike lanes are going to cause problems. At least here, lot of folks ride their bikes fast, I've ridden behind bicycles over 25km/h many times on my trips, and cyclists have also passed me often when my speed is even higher. So even 25km/h could be a bit too slow, and 15km/h definitely is (for bike lanes). Of course there are also slower cyclists around, I usually just hang behind them until a long enough straight with clear visibility comes, or just ride behind them for several kilometers, until I or they turn to some other way. It's sometimes funny when the Firewheels' first speed warning is playing (starts at 18km/h), the cyclists start to look around and check their phones, but sometimes it takes minutes before they take a look behind them I personally average something like around 23-25km/h on my basic hybrid-bike when I have to visit the office about 6.5km away, and my top speed on the route is around 33-35km/h in level straights, sometimes higher, and I don't consider myself a fast cyclist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Authoritarianism regarding EUCs will come soon enough. No reason to wish for it, nor help it, nor give it any ideas. Keep your head down. [Enjoy your current position of relative freedom. It will be gone in the blink of an eye. But for now...][For the rest of your life, always remember this moment in time when there are virtually no laws directly about EUCs. It is as if it is *anarchy* in EUCs. And remember all of the problems that are associated with this. Oh wait. We are mostly getting along just fine, thank you very much. Later it will be different. But for now, one brief shining moment of freedom. Without 'benefit' of all the laws that will come later, we are all getting along just fine, and trying our best to not harm anyone. For the most part we are successful and the world continues to turn just fine. Wow. Later we will wonder how was that possible? Never forget this moment.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc415 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Authoritarianism regarding EUCs will come soon enough. No reason to wish for it, nor help it, nor give it any ideas. Keep your head down. [Enjoy your current position of relative freedom. It will be gone in the blink of an eye. But for now...][For the rest of your life, always remember this moment in time when there are virtually no laws directly about EUCs. It is as if it is *anarchy* in EUCs. And remember all of the problems that are associated with this. Oh wait. We are mostly getting along just fine, thank you very much. Later it will be different. But for now, one brief shining moment of freedom. Without 'benefit' of all the laws that will come later, we are all getting along just fine, and trying our best to not harm anyone. For the most part we are successful and the world continues to turn just fine. Wow. Later we will wonder how was that possible? Never forget this moment.]Lol quite poetic there, I have to agree with you that this is a very fine moment we should savor in the EU world. My worry is for the reckless riders who will soon enter the realm and ruin it for the masses... and inevitably there will be - just think of how many reckless bicyclists there are, riding in the lanes going the opposite direction, disregarding traffic lights, weaving in and out of car lanes, on their phones, riding side by side, etc. There are times I want to yell at these bicyclists, but then I stop myself b/c I'm riding an EU in their lane lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 OMG. The death toll must be horrific! Oh, wait. There isn't any death toll. Perhaps we should just yell at them. Dogs and Cats fornicating in the streets. It all sounds so horrible. [Actually, there are laws against reckless bicyclists, aren't there? Does that actually help anything? If it does, why do you still have complaints? Does that prevent reckless bicyclists, or are the laws basically useless from preventing all of your "worries"? ][Forgive me please, if I seem rude. I just think the less laws about EUCs the better. Since a law is always a threat of violence against you (ultimately), why would you want more laws against your chosen activity? Be kind. Be courteous. Be safe. Harm no one. If you do these things, why should you wish anyone to be locked up?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroy Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The silly thing is that, in an ideal World, @Carastro is right - further the EUC cause by being pro-active in helping shape the laws of the land to safeguard riders & the general public at large.However, @dpong reads the real situation perfectly - lawmakers are notorious for creating rules & regulations for things that they have little or no understanding of. They pamper to all sorts of weird do-gooders, only listen to one side of the story & ultimately make a mess of the project with no come-back.Lets enjoy & live for this moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc415 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 OMG. The death toll must be horrific! Oh, wait. There isn't any death toll. Perhaps we should just yell at them. Dogs and Cats fornicating in the streets. It all sounds so horrible. [Actually, there are laws against reckless bicyclists, aren't there? Does that actually help anything? If it does, why do you still have complaints? Does that prevent reckless bicyclists, or are the laws basically useless from preventing all of your "worries"? ][Forgive me please, if I seem rude. I just think the less laws about EUCs the better. Since a law is always a threat of violence against you (ultimately), why would you want more laws against your chosen activity? Be kind. Be courteous. Be safe. Harm no one. If you do these things, why should you wish anyone to be locked up?] Bro, relax. you seem to misunderstand what I was saying. I agreed with you that this is a nice moment where there are no regulations on EU's, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was mentioning that there are bicyclists that show no regard for others, regardless of whether they have laws binding them or not. Whether there are laws against this or that, people who wish to disregard others for the sake of their convenience will continue to do so, and these types of ppl will eventually crop up in the EU world. Even so, I'm not for wanting laws against them - merely stating these are the types of people that will cause legislation to be passed. God forbid one day a horrible accident happens and someone gets struck while riding an EU - ppl will point at the few reckless riders and say "see, this is why we need more laws" etc. that'll be the day laws start to get introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 @johnc415 I apologize. I believe I did in fact misread what you said. I do get a bit agitated when people start planning under what circumstances I should be fined, ticketed, or arrested. So perhaps emotions got the better of me. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc415 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 @johnc415 I apologize. I believe I did in fact misread what you said. I do get a bit agitated when people start planning under what circumstances I should be fined, ticketed, or arrested. So perhaps emotions got the better of me. Peace. No worries, I'm with you there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I am totally with @dpong -- there are already way too many laws and more often than not they are quite silly; especially at the start of something like EUC's this has the potential to suppress wider adoption; this would not be good since EUC's are such an eco-friendly option for urban travel.However, I also agree that as a community it may be good to be pro-active and come up with some sensible possible regulations -- if we don't do that every city will invent some rules themselves -- with many being just to discourage these new fads Or sometimes well-intentioned, but not ideal: for example Seattle is at the fore-front of encouraging bicycling and eco-friendly transportation and they already have laws to treat a EUC like a Segway. This is not ideal though since Segways are much heavier, bulkier, and slower. The law in Seattle means you can ride a EUC legally on the sidewalks when possible. I like it though that there is a law in principle since now I don't have to worry about getting tickets or my EUC being confiscated like some people reported from Swiss (I think??).Sensible rules to me would be mostly to protect the public from unreasonable risk of injury:You can ride a EUC on either a sidewalk or bicycle lane -- whatever seems safest. In contrast to bikes, EUC's can go very slow and are highly maneuverable so one can easily blend into many people walking about. However, EUC's can also go faster in which case a bicycle lane is more appropriate.On a EUC, you have to yield to pedestrians and bicycles.Maximum speed on the sidewalk should be that of a runner (~12km/hr).Maximum speed on the bicycle lane should probably be 32km/hr (similar to the speed limitation of most e-bikes, or a rider on a road bike (actually, a person on a race bike can probably go about 40km/hr on a flat track)).A EUC is a single-wheel self-balancing device.I don't think any other rules are really needed. I can think a bunch of things that should not be in the laws:Any technical specs, like maximum wattage or something. Usually technology goes fast and laws are usually quickly outdated if they mention technical specs. For example, for EUC's, the wattage is mostly needed for balancing, not speed, and higher wattage is usually much safer.Required helmets: this should be up to the users themselves (moreover, scientific evidence firmly supports the argument that if you do not wear a helmet in a car, you should not want to wear a helmet at bicycle speeds)Just my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 We need regulation/ laws for the EUs to be legal on the road. But laws will define safety reliability also. That's the pitty in the story. And the EU manufacturers are not sophisticated enough, haven't the necessary economical background, no certificates to ship dangerous goods by airplane, the possibility to understand market demands, no service management/ ISO 9001 is not common, a couple of them don't have the full R&D range in place (circuit design, Firmware, Software, testing capabilities) and can't move their mind to see the big picture. They need external help to move their mind.Safety relaibility is also the max speed power cut or the BMS power cut problem.In Switzerland we've still the laws and no EU will currently meet the requirement to get approval. Police currently tell people it's not allowed to drive without approval (but we had one case here with problems in the Zurich area where a guy was stopped by police). A question of time when they change and seize EUs and give you a bill.In Germany the government made tests wit EUs and they all failed. Not a good point to start discussion to get a law defined. Also they mentioned that's to heavy to learn to be safety reliable. Let's start a facebook group to forbid bicylces, as they're heavy to learn I'm aware of 4 people getting their EUs seized/ or get a bill by the police in Germany in the last 2 weeks. In Germany and Switzerland/ Lichtenstein live around 90 million people. Infrastructure to use EUs for the so called micromobility are in place. But people don't buy them because they're not legal. Only some nuts like us buy them and use them. I would be happy to use it in town, on tours or for business appointments when I travel by train to get from the railway station to the meeting downtown.Without regulation/ laws the market will stay as is (very small) or will become smaller because it will be impossible to drive the EUs without being seized over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleu9mm Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Bylaws are like clothes in GoGo Bars... The least is the best. However:Helmet: Mandatory while riding in sidewalks or streets. Not that riding an EU is dangerous by itself but the surrounding motorists can be a threat.Speed: Limited to 25 Km/h... Protecting idiots agains themselves...Ehhh, wellll, That's it.$0,02Bleu9mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Speed: Limited to 25 Km/h... Protecting idiots agains themselves...I have this mental picture now of police hiding in the bushes with radar guns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 For those of you outside the USA, most traffic and vehicle laws are actually passed and enforced by the individual states. So we have 50 different sets of laws to consider when it comes to EUCs, plus whatever additional rules are enforced by cities. Fortunately, lobbyists for Segway went around each of the states back in the early 2000s and got most of them to add laws that allowed Segways. Since the lobbyists wrote most of the language, you'll see terms like EPAMD (Electronic Personal Assistive Mobility Device) or PMD (Personal Mobility Device) to avoid saying "Segway". However, most states define an EPAMD as having "two nontandem wheels" just like a Segway. That means technically none of these laws apply to EUCs anyway since most only have one wheel.Having looked at most of the EPAMD laws for nearby states, I'm okay with having them apply to EUCs. They're mostly just basic common sense rules like having reflectors or lights at night, giving priority to pedestrians, and avoiding high-speed roads. Nobody has bugged me about riding yet, but if they did I'd rather be able to point to the law that allows me to ride than say that it's all in a gray area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I am a criminal defense lawyer and i looked up the law. You are right, the Segway law is the closest thing on the books everywhere I have examined. Washington State may have passed done legislation, but I am not certain. I prefer the gray area to fleshing out the law before we figure our what watts, watt hours and top speed are best. Keep in mind that you can very likely get a DUI on one and you probably can't ride on trails labeled No Motorized Vehicles. It would be nice if the latter was changed over time, but the DUI aspect is unlikely to chance.Be safe, be polite to the point of penitent, and enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If you've applicable laws or techn. requirements (reflector, light, a bell, brake performance) it's a good point to start with. The technical requirements are easy to cope with - if you've a wheel from a trusted source with 500+ W basepower.But than you'll faced with a very simple sentence: The vehicle must be safety reliable. Silence.Than you get in an interesting discussion and you talk about test cases they do and what the testing agencies/ government (they sync together in working groups) think about. At this point you realize that an EU manufacturer needs to have the full R&D chain in house or must be able to handle the R&D departments at his suppliers (not possible in china). So then we talk about manufacturers you can count on one hand. The manufacturer needs to have a partner on front to handle the approval process. Not a box mover, we talk about a partner with skills in technical issues, regulations, service management and so on. There's much more behind.If you can go the approval process with a manufacturer he needs to have service management skills (configuration, change management,..). If you order a Cal EU it has maybe other reflector colours than a German model and may be other speed settings,.. The manufacturer needs to handle this with vehicle orders and also spare parts handling. This is not a big issue for us in Europe (as we live with this in other business areas also) but it's a time travel for the Chinese manufacturers as we know them today.It's a chance for a manufacturer to get big in business. Regulations will sort the sales ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoMarjamaa Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The law that is coming to Finland sounds good to me. There might be some loopholes but ability to ride slower in sidewalks and faster in bikelanes feels to be commonsense to me. If someone wants to ride faster in bikelanes, he can put a helmet on if he wishes. The most important point is not to prohibit the thing and allow us to see where these things lead us and city commuting.People nowadays seem to think that if something is not illegal then it's ok to do meaning you don't have to think anymore by yourself if it's ok/safe/sensible to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Keep in mind that you can very likely get a DUI on one and you probably can't ride on trails labeled No Motorized Vehicles. At the very least I am sure you could get "public intoxication" or some such. As far as the "No Motorized Vehicles" part, I'm not sure. I ride in such areas like public parks all the time. In Maryland Code (where I live) there is section 21-501 that says:At an intersection, a person using an EPAMD is subject to all traffic control signals, as provided in §§ 21-202 and 21-203 of this title. However, at any other place, a person using an EPAMD has the rights and is subject to the restrictions applicable to pedestrians under this title.So I would read "has the rights...applicable to pedestrians" as allowing me to ride where motorized vehicles cannot, such as sidewalks. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I ride on trails that have signs (at some entry points) that say "No Motor Vehicles". But I contend that their intent is to stop people from riding motorcycles on them. But I know, what I think isn't enough.In my state it says:Motor Vehicle shall mean every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires but not operated upon rails; provided, however, the definition of "motor vehicle" herein shall not include implements of husbandry, electric personal assistive mobility devices, and motorized wheelchairs as defined by the laws of the state or vehicles moved solely by human or animal power.But it also says that an EPAMD has 2 non-tandem wheels. (So I fudge on this one.)In the past I had heard about how Segway worked on getting laws permitting Segways. Now that Ninebot owns Segway they just need to get States to change the definition of an EPAMD to include 1 wheeled vehicles.I know it's been mentioned that it might be difficult to convince someone that an EU is an EPAMD. But while I can ride an EU due to some past injuries riding a bicycle would cause me pain (due to bending of ankle and knee joints and the posture of my spine).I figure if I were to get stopped by a cop and it came down to the 2 wheels vs. 1 wheel I would just have to attach a fake training wheel to one side. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I figure if I were to get stopped by a cop and it came down to the 2 wheels vs. 1 wheel I would just have to attach a fake training wheel to one side. Problem solved. Finally someone found an advantage to the Airwheel Q series. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I would not try riding an EU on the Creeper trail in Virginia or the Greenbrier River Trail in West Virginia, but I would ride on sidewalks and trails that are mainly focused on only ensuring that no combustion engines are on the trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoMarjamaa Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricUnicycle/comments/3jp2k8/am_i_insane_to_ride_on_sidewalks/I hope we don't hear these kind of stories more in the future. (And I know just hoping is not enough ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.